Westbrook needs 16 rebounds tonight to average a triple double for the season again
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:02 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
governator wrote:
kikanga wrote:

A knucklehead whose team outscores their opponents twice as much with him on the floor compared to their average. And whose team is a sub .500 squad with him off the floor.


Aside from what you guys are arguing, a team with S.Adams, Melo, PG13... similar to DeAndre, Blake, Lou... should be expected to be at least 0.500. Maybe the coach is the wrong coach (beside PG13 being in the wrong team)


On/off stats are misleading because they don’t account for rotations and game situations. The implicit assumption is that all of those guys were on the floor when Westbrook wasn’t, and vice versa. Of course, that’s not true. If anything, the stat shows that OKC had a depth problem, but we already knew that.


https://on.nba.com/2qyOjo3
Some lineup data. Net ratings for lineups that have played over 20 minutes.
Top 9 lineups all have Westbrook in it.
Bottom 3 (130 min, 99 min, 68 min) all don't have WB it. But 3 out of the bottom 8 do (bringing it up so you don't think I'm cherry picking).

I disagree on/off stats are misleading with the sample size used in my example. No assumptions are made with the stat. It literally just shows what happened when each guy is on the floor or not. I even showed what the stat looks like with the other 3 OKC starters who played all season long.
The lineup data backs up the on/off stats.

Taking stats out of the equation for a second. I probably watched 50 of OKCs regular season games this year. The team did much better when Westbrook anchored lineups than when Melo or PG did. Sure, Felton is no WB. But Abrines, Ferguson, and Huestis are no PG or Melo either.
Grant is a super sub. But again, he played best with WB compared to the other 2 studs. When you play with WBs activity level EVERY SINGLE GAME it lifts the whole team much more often than it hurts.
That's why he's #1 in ESPN's RPM Wins stat.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:51 am    Post subject:

It’s interesting going through the thunder units by minutes played. As probably expected, the top five lineups are Westbrook, George, Anthony, Adams, and one other variable guy. After that you have one lineup with George and none of the rest of them, one with all of them, three with either George and none of them or none of them at all, and one with all of them except George. In the top 20 lineups, George is the only one of their big four who plays without at least one other of the big four, and Westbrook tends to almost always have two or more (and mostly all three) or the others in his lineups in the top 20. George has three lineups, all in the top four, where he is the only one of the four.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:38 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I've been saying for years that it is an overrated stat (which makes some people hysterical), but Westbrook has illustrated my point pretty well.


I'd say Westbrook has also definitively knocked Oscar Robertson off the top 10 list. Oscar is a name you will hear less and less because his big claim to fame was the triple-double season.


Uh - he averaged a triple double FOR FIVE SEASONS!

From 1960-61 through 1964-65, Robertson played in 384 games, scored 11,620 points (30.3 per game), pulled 3,993 rebounds (10.4 per game) and dished 4,076 assists (10.6 per game).

So to reiterate:

Oscar Robertson AVERAGED 30.3/10.4/10.6 over a five year period.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:57 am    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I've been saying for years that it is an overrated stat (which makes some people hysterical), but Westbrook has illustrated my point pretty well.


I'd say Westbrook has also definitively knocked Oscar Robertson off the top 10 list. Oscar is a name you will hear less and less because his big claim to fame was the triple-double season.


Uh - he averaged a triple double FOR FIVE SEASONS!

From 1960-61 through 1964-65, Robertson played in 384 games, scored 11,620 points (30.3 per game), pulled 3,993 rebounds (10.4 per game) and dished 4,076 assists (10.6 per game).

So to reiterate:

Oscar Robertson AVERAGED 30.3/10.4/10.6 over a five year period.


Yes, there were a lot of silly stats in that era. It’s a combination of the high pace of play and the extreme disparities in talent levels.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I've been saying for years that it is an overrated stat (which makes some people hysterical), but Westbrook has illustrated my point pretty well.


I'd say Westbrook has also definitively knocked Oscar Robertson off the top 10 list. Oscar is a name you will hear less and less because his big claim to fame was the triple-double season.


Uh - he averaged a triple double FOR FIVE SEASONS!

From 1960-61 through 1964-65, Robertson played in 384 games, scored 11,620 points (30.3 per game), pulled 3,993 rebounds (10.4 per game) and dished 4,076 assists (10.6 per game).

So to reiterate:

Oscar Robertson AVERAGED 30.3/10.4/10.6 over a five year period.


Oscar had a great career. He won an MVP and made a lot of all-NBA teams. But he isn't remembered for that. And he isn't remembered for the 5 year stretch. He's remembered because he had one season where he actually had a triple double average.

And as Hunter point outs, the stats that seem mythic now from the early 60s didn't impress people then because they were so common. In his actual triple double season, Oscar came in third in MVP voting. Wilt who averaged 50 that year came in second.

A guy no one remembers named Richie Guerin put up 30-7-7. Willie Naulls put up 25-12. A really fast pace, and a wide disparity in talent, resulting in a lot of crazy stats.

So, sure, Oscar averaging 30-10-10 over five seasons is impressive. But it's probably no more impressive than someone averaging 25 - 7 - 8 or some such over Five Seasons today. That would still be great, but I don't know if it would cause people's Jaws to drop open in amazement.


Last edited by activeverb on Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject:

Worth noting that Westbroook's offensive rebounds have stayed pretty stable (had a 5.6% rate this year, 5.4% last year vs a career 5.7%), while his defensive rate skyrocketed from mid teens to high twenties in the last two years), or roughly 3 boards a game. He was already a pretty well known rebound thief (guy who comes in and poaches a board a teammate has already all but secured), and in the last two years, he's continued that along with being gifted a few boards on missed free throws by the opponent
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:45 pm    Post subject:

FWIW, there's an argument that pace accounted for some large numbers in the sixties, but it doesn't explain the fact that no one in that era touched Wilt or Oscar's accomplishments.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Westbrook has single handedly diminished the career of Oscar Robertson. What once seemed to be an astonishing hallmark - averaging a triple double - now seems doable through trivial stat stuffing. Is there any doubt that that Jordan. Kobe and Lebron could average a triple double if they wanted to?


Magic could have easily done that too if he wanted. But he valued winning and sharing the ball


Dude stop.

Magic tried. He admitted he tried. But he fell short, and he gave Robertson props for his accomplishment In his sophomore and third seasons Magic tried to average a triple double. He came close in 81-82 where he fell 0.4 Rebounds and 0.5 Assists short.

He said he talked to Oscar after and said he had no idea how tough his accomplishment was, till he(Magic) tried it.


So don't try to come with the "Magic could have if he wanted to but was too unselfish." to try to diminish what Westbrook did and build up the 'ease' Magic could have done it.

Magic tried. He fell short. Westbrook did it two seasons in a row. Give credit where it's due instead of trying to find excuses why it didn't happen for players you like.

That's like the Skip Bayless take where he said MJ would never help up an opposing player, and then someone linked a video of Jordan helping a Piston to their feet


But it seems you're trying to convince yourself that Paul George is gonna go "Wow Westbrook averaged a Triple Double in his 2nd straight season..... omg so selfish! Ima go to the Lakers!!"

Paul George has already expressed his admiration for it, and said it shows how bad Westbrook wants to win and how people don't seem to understand that.

If George left, it wouldn't be because Westbrook just accomplished something historic that no other NBA player has before.


Typical LG fan response to any player on any other team. Nobody has talent, unless they are a Laker. They said the same about nearly ever other player who has ever been good. It's meaningless.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:10 pm    Post subject:

I don't think anyone is saying that at all about Westbrook, merely that his rebound total is artificial. Pretty sure Magic, in a lower pace league BTW, didn't ask his teammates to let him take the missed FT's, or to not get mad when he grabbed boards off their finger tips.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:13 pm    Post subject:

Rooting for George to come here next year like most Lakers fans. And I do think Magic could've averaged a triple double in today's NBA.

But if you looked at every NBA player to ever be in the league, the back to back triple double seasons we've seen from WB could only be done by <1%. Even with Adams boxing out and whatever shenanigans OKC does to get WB some of his assists. Physically, mentally, preparation-wise it takes an all time great with a certain skillset and energy level to get it done.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:00 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
FWIW, there's an argument that pace accounted for some large numbers in the sixties, but it doesn't explain the fact that no one in that era touched Wilt or Oscar's accomplishments.


They were two of the best players in the league, so it's not surprising that they had some of the best stats. Still, a lot of other players put up numbers that would be stunning today. Baylor had a couple 34 ppg seasons, and other 30 ppg players included guys like Walt Bellamy and Jack Twyman. Guys with 20 rpg seasons included Jerry Lucas and Nate Thurmond. Guy Rodgers averaged over 10 apg.

None of those guys were at the same level as Wilt or Oscar, but actually that's the point. Oscar was regarded as a great player in his time, but his numbers were not as otherworldly as they seem now.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I've been saying for years that it is an overrated stat (which makes some people hysterical), but Westbrook has illustrated my point pretty well.


I'd say Westbrook has also definitively knocked Oscar Robertson off the top 10 list. Oscar is a name you will hear less and less because his big claim to fame was the triple-double season.


Uh - he averaged a triple double FOR FIVE SEASONS!

From 1960-61 through 1964-65, Robertson played in 384 games, scored 11,620 points (30.3 per game), pulled 3,993 rebounds (10.4 per game) and dished 4,076 assists (10.6 per game).

So to reiterate:

Oscar Robertson AVERAGED 30.3/10.4/10.6 over a five year period.


Yes, there were a lot of silly stats in that era. It’s a combination of the high pace of play and the extreme disparities in talent levels.


Why was Oscar the only one that did it then in that era?


People love to show up and go "Oscar did it cause it was this way."

Why was he the only one that did it then in that era?


Some people always try to make it sound like anyone could have done it "because of" and try to take away a players achievement but then fail to answer why Oscar stood alone in that era as the one that did it.

Omar Little wrote:
FWIW, there's an argument that pace accounted for some large numbers in the sixties, but it doesn't explain the fact that no one in that era touched Wilt or Oscar's accomplishments.


This.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:18 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
FWIW, there's an argument that pace accounted for some large numbers in the sixties, but it doesn't explain the fact that no one in that era touched Wilt or Oscar's accomplishments.


They were two of the best players in the league, so it's not surprising that they had some of the best stats. Still, a lot of other players put up numbers that would be stunning today. Baylor had a couple 34 ppg seasons, and other 30 ppg players included guys like Walt Bellamy and Jack Twyman. Guys with 20 rpg seasons included Jerry Lucas and Nate Thurmond. Guy Rodgers averaged over 10 apg.

None of those guys were at the same level as Wilt or Oscar, but actually that's the point. Oscar was regarded as a great player in his time, but his numbers were not as otherworldly as they seem now.


So the era was soft and just any old guy could rack up the stats and yet the era was so bereft that only a couple guys had real talent, although not real talent by today’s standards, thus they crossed barriers guys then and now can’t. Cool gymnastics to avoid the fact that both wilt and Oscar accomplished things that were simply amazing even in an inflated stats era, and are worthy of the accolades that should come with that.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:52 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
FWIW, there's an argument that pace accounted for some large numbers in the sixties, but it doesn't explain the fact that no one in that era touched Wilt or Oscar's accomplishments.


They were two of the best players in the league, so it's not surprising that they had some of the best stats. Still, a lot of other players put up numbers that would be stunning today. Baylor had a couple 34 ppg seasons, and other 30 ppg players included guys like Walt Bellamy and Jack Twyman. Guys with 20 rpg seasons included Jerry Lucas and Nate Thurmond. Guy Rodgers averaged over 10 apg.

None of those guys were at the same level as Wilt or Oscar, but actually that's the point. Oscar was regarded as a great player in his time, but his numbers were not as otherworldly as they seem now.


So the era was soft and just any old guy could rack up the stats and yet the era was so bereft that only a couple guys had real talent, although not real talent by today’s standards, thus they crossed barriers guys then and now can’t. Cool gymnastics to avoid the fact that both wilt and Oscar accomplished things that were simply amazing even in an inflated stats era, and are worthy of the accolades that should come with that.


That's one of the oddest posts I've ever seen from you, 24. It's like you're responding to someone else, complete with insults.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:09 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Why was Oscar the only one that did it then in that era?


It wasn't even a thing. Again, the term triple double didn't even exist. It was coined by the Lakers PR department in the 1980s. Triple doubles weren't something that guys were shooting for.

Players of that era were not caught up in the childlike fascination with the triple double. Elgin Baylor had one season in which he averaged 34.8/19.8/5.1. That's as good as any of Oscar's triple double seasons. The same season, Bob Pettit averaged 27.9/20.8/3.4. That's as good as any of Oscar's triple double seasons. Neither of them averaged 10 assists, but they both placed higher in the MVP voting than Oscar that season.

There were other years when Oscar placed higher in the MVP voting, but that isn't the point. The point is that all sorts of guys were having monster seasons back then. Numbers that sound unthinkable today were regular occurrences back then. And no one gave a flip about triple doubles, because that wouldn't even be a thing for another twenty years.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:59 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
FWIW, there's an argument that pace accounted for some large numbers in the sixties, but it doesn't explain the fact that no one in that era touched Wilt or Oscar's accomplishments.


They were two of the best players in the league, so it's not surprising that they had some of the best stats. Still, a lot of other players put up numbers that would be stunning today. Baylor had a couple 34 ppg seasons, and other 30 ppg players included guys like Walt Bellamy and Jack Twyman. Guys with 20 rpg seasons included Jerry Lucas and Nate Thurmond. Guy Rodgers averaged over 10 apg.

None of those guys were at the same level as Wilt or Oscar, but actually that's the point. Oscar was regarded as a great player in his time, but his numbers were not as otherworldly as they seem now.


So the era was soft and just any old guy could rack up the stats and yet the era was so bereft that only a couple guys had real talent, although not real talent by today’s standards, thus they crossed barriers guys then and now can’t. Cool gymnastics to avoid the fact that both wilt and Oscar accomplished things that were simply amazing even in an inflated stats era, and are worthy of the accolades that should come with that.


For me, this misses the point.

I think both Wilt and Oscar are among the greatest basketball players of all time.

The point is that their accomplishments have to be kept in perspective. We had one guy going ectastic in this thread saying, "Oscar averaged 30-10-10 for 5 seasons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" And that's true. The problem is a lot of his ectasy was because he was comparing Oscar's stats to modern stats as if they were equivalent.

If we determined that Oscars 30-10-10 in the early 60s was equivalent to, just for the heck of it, 25-7-7 today, that would still be great but people wouldn't be screamiing with amazement, "He averaged 25-7-7 for 5 straight seasons!"

And that's the point. WIlt and Oscar had great accomplishments, but you can't compare them on an apples-to-apples basis with much later generations.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:41 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
FWIW, there's an argument that pace accounted for some large numbers in the sixties, but it doesn't explain the fact that no one in that era touched Wilt or Oscar's accomplishments.


They were two of the best players in the league, so it's not surprising that they had some of the best stats. Still, a lot of other players put up numbers that would be stunning today. Baylor had a couple 34 ppg seasons, and other 30 ppg players included guys like Walt Bellamy and Jack Twyman. Guys with 20 rpg seasons included Jerry Lucas and Nate Thurmond. Guy Rodgers averaged over 10 apg.

None of those guys were at the same level as Wilt or Oscar, but actually that's the point. Oscar was regarded as a great player in his time, but his numbers were not as otherworldly as they seem now.




So the era was soft and just any old guy could rack up the stats and yet the era was so bereft that only a couple guys had real talent, although not real talent by today’s standards, thus they crossed barriers guys then and now can’t. Cool gymnastics to avoid the fact that both wilt and Oscar accomplished things that were simply amazing even in an inflated stats era, and are worthy of the accolades that should come with that.


That's one of the oddest posts I've ever seen from you, 24. It's like you're responding to someone else, complete with insults.


My apologies. Wasn’t meaning to be insulting. Didn’t think you’d take the phrase as one, merely pointing out that you seem to be working a bit at having it both ways, where the stats are meaningless yet Oscar got them because he was so much better. Wasn’t a personal dig. But again, apologize.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:49 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
MJST wrote:
Why was Oscar the only one that did it then in that era?


It wasn't even a thing. Again, the term triple double didn't even exist. It was coined by the Lakers PR department in the 1980s. Triple doubles weren't something that guys were shooting for.

Players of that era were not caught up in the childlike fascination with the triple double. Elgin Baylor had one season in which he averaged 34.8/19.8/5.1. That's as good as any of Oscar's triple double seasons. The same season, Bob Pettit averaged 27.9/20.8/3.4. That's as good as any of Oscar's triple double seasons. Neither of them averaged 10 assists, but they both placed higher in the MVP voting than Oscar that season.

There were other years when Oscar placed higher in the MVP voting, but that isn't the point. The point is that all sorts of guys were having monster seasons back then. Numbers that sound unthinkable today were regular occurrences back then. And no one gave a flip about triple doubles, because that wouldn't even be a thing for another twenty years.


There’s some truth there, and I think that’s what galls people about Westbrook. Oscar didn’t think about triple doubles, yet he got them effortlessly when no one else did it once. And once the pace slowed some and the offensive game improved and cut missed down, that ended the triple double average for the most part. Magic admits to thinking about it and giving it a bit of a go early, but he had other things on his mind and even though he could have easily put himself in a defensive position to take more boards, he prioritized what they were doing to win. And neither he nor Oscar would dream of rebound theft as a practice, much less allowing/expecting the team to set them up for free throw misses.

And that’s again the problem with Westbrook, who has no problem essentially gaming the system and cheapening something that while arbitrary, was pretty impressive. It’s a symptom of his disease of me, which is a big reason Durant left him. It’s why some of us get early said OKC should have traded him instead of Harden.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:53 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
My apologies. Wasn’t meaning to be insulting. Didn’t think you’d take the phrase as one, merely pointing out that you seem to be working a bit at having it both ways, where the stats are meaningless yet Oscar got them because he was so much better. Wasn’t a personal dig. But again, apologize.


Hey, no problem. Let me explain it this way. In an era of crazy, inflated stats, the best players are still going to have the best stats. Wilt, Russell, Oscar, Elgin, West, and Pettit were the best players, and they all had crazy stats. This does not negate the fact that they were the best players of the era, but likewise it doesn't validate the stats outside of the context of the time. I wouldn't call the stats meaningless -- they just don't translate to other eras.

So if you tell me that Oscar was one of the best players of his time because he averaged a triple double over a number of years (though triple doubles weren't a thing back then), I'm fine with that. We'd reach the same conclusion without giving any weight to the triple double factor. But when someone tells me that this was an all-time legendary performance, I'm going to balk at that.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:00 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
And that’s again the problem with Westbrook, who has no problem essentially gaming the system and cheapening something that while arbitrary, was pretty impressive. It’s a symptom of his disease of me, which is a big reason Durant left him. It’s why some of us get early said OKC should have traded him instead of Harden.


This is what the fascination with triple doubles leads to: Ricky Davis.

Bob Sura, too.

Westbrook isn't quite that ridiculous, but this stuff shows that some players are just as bad as fans when it comes to things like this.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:30 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
And that’s again the problem with Westbrook, who has no problem essentially gaming the system and cheapening something that while arbitrary, was pretty impressive. It’s a symptom of his disease of me, which is a big reason Durant left him. It’s why some of us get early said OKC should have traded him instead of Harden.


This is what the fascination with triple doubles leads to: Ricky Davis.

Bob Sura, too.

Westbrook isn't quite that ridiculous, but this stuff shows that some players are just as bad as fans when it comes to things like this.



True, but that's always been happening.

Wilt's 100 point game was a farce (it would be much less mythical if there was a tape of it), with his teammates fouling and doing other things to get him to 100.

In 94, the Spurs fed David Robinson on every possession, even when he was double teamed, to get him shots so he could win the scoring title. His teammates even fouled the opponents just to get the ball back quicker so Robinson could get more shots.

Rodman, at the end of his career, was as bad a rebound stealer from teammates as anyone, because he defined his rep through rebounds.

Because the triple-double has three elements, it lends itself to gaming the system even more than other stats. Sura is maybe the best example, and I was always glad the NBA took away his last rebound.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:20 pm    Post subject:

The Ricky Davis clip is always good for a laugh, if just because of the look on Jerry Sloan's face.

Javale McGee and Anthony Bowie are on the list, too. At least Batum knew he'd made an ass of himself.

https://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/5-of-the-worst-triple-double-attempts-in-nba-history.html/?a=viewall
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:35 am    Post subject:

WB's individual accomplishment is amazing.

But still doesn't translate, IMO, to playoff basketball. We're seeing that with the Jazz series.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:39 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
WB's individual accomplishment is amazing.

But still doesn't translate, IMO, to playoff basketball. We're seeing that with the Jazz series.


Getting outplayed by Ricky Rubio/Rookie Donovan combo at PG is not a good look
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:58 am    Post subject:

When it's ugly, it's ugly.
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