***OFFICIAL 2018 NBA PLAYOFFS GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD***
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Shecky
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:38 am    Post subject:

DangeRuss wrote:
Irving and Hayward definitely make the Celtics better. Canít belive people are saying theyíre better off without those two.


It's ludicrous. Last we saw Hayward in Utah he was doing 22 a game on only 15 shots. Every team in the league can use that kind of efficiency. He's a shooter and has a game that can mesh with any style of play.
And Kyrie? Really? Adding Kyrie Irving to the Celtics next year may not improve that team at all?
If Boston had a completely clueless coach maybe it wouldn't work.
Well, that ain't the case either...
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:08 am    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
2 shots changed lebron's legacy
Ray Allen 3 in game 6 to tie it for the heat
Kyrie's mamba mentality 3 in game 7
We'd be talking about the greatest loser in the history if not for those two shots.


This.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:02 am    Post subject:

Kava wrote:
JerryWest_44 wrote:
epak wrote:
Chad09 wrote:
Clarkson/Nance with a huge amount of points.


JC with mass minutes too.


bogarting all those minutes on the bench


Is their lack of production w/ the Cavs evidence that we overvalue our players

OR

Evidence that Ty Lue and Lebron are hard to play for.

OR Both?


I was on the record as thinking Clarkson was a bad player when he was on the Lakers. It was too bad really, had all the tools to be a good defender, but just never really tried on that end. And on offense he always had blinders on. Thank goodness the Cavs took him.

That said, it is his first playoffs. If you look at his regular season stats with Cleveland, he was shooting 40% from 3 and playing more minutes. I don't think he is as bad as he looks now.

I always liked Nance. He plays D and is a smart player. I still miss him, but yeah, over all a very good trade for the Lakers.
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32
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:24 am    Post subject:

Team of the 80's wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
2 shots changed lebron's legacy
Ray Allen 3 in game 6 to tie it for the heat
Kyrie's mamba mentality 3 in game 7
We'd be talking about the greatest loser in the history if not for those two shots.


This.


That's a dumb way to look at it. Winning titles is a team game. Also Jerry West was 1-7 and Elgin Baylor was 0-8.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:34 am    Post subject:

Shecky wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:
Irving and Hayward definitely make the Celtics better. Canít belive people are saying theyíre better off without those two.


It's ludicrous. Last we saw Hayward in Utah he was doing 22 a game on only 15 shots. Every team in the league can use that kind of efficiency. He's a shooter and has a game that can mesh with any style of play.
And Kyrie? Really? Adding Kyrie Irving to the Celtics next year may not improve that team at all?
If Boston had a completely clueless coach maybe it wouldn't work.
Well, that ain't the case either...


I agree that they will be better, but you also have to take into account (1) that Irving is significantly worse defensively than both Smart and Rozier, (2) Tatum may be better than Hayward at this point (despite your arguments above) and (3) there are only so many minutes to go around. Look at it this way...

Current playoffs:
PG: Rozier (37)/Smart (11)
SG: Brown (29)/Smart (19)
SF: Tatum (35)/Brown (3)/Ojeleye (10)
PF: Morris (30)/Horford (16)/Ojeleye (2)
C: Horford (19)/Baynes (20)/Monroe (9)

Projected 2019 Regular Season
PG: Irving (32)/Rozier (16)
SG: Hayward (32)/Smart (16)
SF: Brown (32)/Ojeleye (16)
PF: Tatum (32)/Morris (16)
C: Horford (32)/Baynes (16)

So it really comes down to a question of how much better are Irving and Hayward than Rozier and Smart, on both sides of the floor. I'd argue that what you gain in offense, you lose, mostly, in defense. It may only be a slight upgrade there, especially since, as young players, you may expect both to return next year even better. Then, you're also relying on Tatum being able to play the four because, if not, you're taking minutes away from either Brown or Tatum in order to get Hayward his minutes. Who knows if Tatum can play the 4 or if that minute crunch will exist because he can't. That's not to mention minimizing Morris' minutes, who has been a solid contributor on D. That being said, you have to believe both Brown and Tatum will each be even better next year too, so there should be an upgrade there.

In whole, they'll be a better team next year, but its not going to be a huge leap IMO and nothing close to Golden State. This all really just speaks to how well Smart/Rozier have played (combined, largely closing the gap between them and Irving) and how Brown/Tatum may already be Hayward's equals, if not his superiors.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:04 am    Post subject:

Boston is 6 wins away from being the champs. This just got real. Anything can happen. I just hope the Warriors stay healthy. They will have home court advantage in the finals.
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Last edited by 32 on Wed May 16, 2018 8:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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JerryWest_44
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:10 am    Post subject:

32 wrote:
Boston is 6 games away from being the champs. This just got real. Anything can happen. I just hope the Warriors stay healthy. They will have home court advantage in the finals.



LOL - they are as close to a championship as the Raptors are this year....
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:12 am    Post subject:

32 wrote:
Boston is 6 games away from being the champs. This just got real. Anything can happen. I just hope the Warriors stay healthy. They will have home court advantage in the finals.


6 wins you mean. You make me you nervous
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:13 am    Post subject:

chantruong wrote:
32 wrote:
Boston is 6 games away from being the champs. This just got real. Anything can happen. I just hope the Warriors stay healthy. They will have home court advantage in the finals.


6 wins you mean. You make me you nervous


Yes. 6 wins.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:22 am    Post subject:

chantruong wrote:
32 wrote:
Boston is 6 games away from being the champs. This just got real. Anything can happen. I just hope the Warriors stay healthy. They will have home court advantage in the finals.


6 wins you mean. You make me you nervous


Let me introduce you to the Golden State Warriors
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:24 am    Post subject:

JerryWest_44 wrote:
32 wrote:
Boston is 6 games away from being the champs. This just got real. Anything can happen. I just hope the Warriors stay healthy. They will have home court advantage in the finals.



LOL - they are as close to a championship as the Raptors are this year....


No, actually they are closer. They always play the Warriors tough and they have many pieces they can throw at the Warriors. Strength line up, speed line up, length or skill line up. They have it covered. Plus a genius head coach. They probably won't win, but they are definitely a Draymond nut punch or a Curry ankle away from #18.
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Shecky
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:53 am    Post subject:

JerryWest_44 wrote:
32 wrote:
Boston is 6 games away from being the champs. This just got real. Anything can happen. I just hope the Warriors stay healthy. They will have home court advantage in the finals.



LOL - they are as close to a championship as the Raptors are this year....


Boston ain't beating the Warriors this season but I'm 100% confident they'd give them a better series than Cleveland. And if they get to the Finals and lose so what? They've been playing with house money for two rounds of the playoffs now.
And one thing's for sure; gaining valuable experience matters. We now know how these young Boston kids perform under the pressure of the postseason because they're doing it. We have zero idea how the Lakers young kids will perform under playoff pressure 'til next year at the earliest. If the Celtics get to The Finals and lose to a great team it's still nothing but a positive.
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chantruong
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:55 am    Post subject:

Another scary thing is that Ainge will figure what pieces they need to get to beat the Warriors. I don't think anything short of trading for AD would do it but who knows.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:24 am    Post subject:

32 wrote:
Boston is 6 wins away from being the champs. This just got real. Anything can happen. I just hope the Warriors stay healthy. They will have home court advantage in the finals.


Understand how you feel, Lakers were 3 wins away in 2004. Being close is one thing, overcoming the opponent without a healthy all-star is another. Still like the West's chances this year, though Boston will be a force to be reckoned with for years to come.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:42 am    Post subject:

The Lakers as currently constructed would not be down 0-2 to the Celtics. Mostly because our best players at least play some defense.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:55 am    Post subject:

32 wrote:
Boston is 6 wins away from being the champs. This just got real. Anything can happen. I just hope the Warriors stay healthy. They will have home court advantage in the finals.


I've said it before and I'm saying it again: the Lakers will win a championship before the Celtics.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:56 am    Post subject:

32 wrote:
Team of the 80's wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
2 shots changed lebron's legacy
Ray Allen 3 in game 6 to tie it for the heat
Kyrie's mamba mentality 3 in game 7
We'd be talking about the greatest loser in the history if not for those two shots.


This.


That's a dumb way to look at it. Winning titles is a team game. Also Jerry West was 1-7 and Elgin Baylor was 0-8.


And they aren't in the top 10 for that reason.

Nobody was giving Jerry West the excuse of "Well he'd be 4-4 in the Finals if Boston didn't have such a stacked team" or Elgin Baylor whom almost single handedly was able to bring victories against that Boston unit.

Had LeBron done that ESPN would be all over "Well he should REALLY be Finals MVP and this loss doesn't count..."

LeBron gets so much protection that Jerry West and Elgin Baylor don't, despite the fantastic individual performances they put forth trying to lead the teams against a stacked Boston roster.

Whereas LeBron's individual performances are used to try to erase his losses.

That's the biggest problem and difference.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:05 am    Post subject:

Warriors in 6 over the Cs.
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danzag
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:24 am    Post subject:

PHILosophize wrote:
Warriors in 6 over the Cs.


Warriors in 5.
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Shecky
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:24 am    Post subject:

danzag wrote:
32 wrote:
Boston is 6 wins away from being the champs. This just got real. Anything can happen. I just hope the Warriors stay healthy. They will have home court advantage in the finals.


I've said it before and I'm saying it again: the Lakers will win a championship before the Celtics.


Baseless statement. As it stands today, there's absolutely no foundation for making this claim.
Now the off season can change things but it's gonna take more than just adding Paul George, IMO, even with the development of the Lakers young kids. Boston is every bit as youthful and will also be adding two prime players without Ainge having to do anything. They're also showing a toughness and a grit that I'm not sure the Lakers have. Yet, anyway.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:21 am    Post subject:

32 wrote:
Team of the 80's wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
2 shots changed lebron's legacy
Ray Allen 3 in game 6 to tie it for the heat
Kyrie's mamba mentality 3 in game 7
We'd be talking about the greatest loser in the history if not for those two shots.


This.


That's a dumb way to look at it. Winning titles is a team game. Also Jerry West was 1-7 and Elgin Baylor was 0-8.



Itís like they forgot that Miami was down double digits in the 4th quarter and James brought them back within striking distance. If he donít ape crazy, Allenís three is meaningless.

Same could be said about Bryant. Attest and Fish donít sac up and hit those big shots, dudeís legacy would have two losses to the Cís while shooting 6-24.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:57 am    Post subject:

danzag wrote:
PHILosophize wrote:
Warriors in 6 over the Cs.


Warriors in 5.


4
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 12:00 pm    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
2 shots changed lebron's legacy
Ray Allen 3 in game 6 to tie it for the heat
Kyrie's mamba mentality 3 in game 7
We'd be talking about the greatest loser in the history if not for those two shots.


Shall we count the # of times that Kobe's legacy was saved by Horry and Fisher hitting crucial shots? Or how MWP bailing Kobe out of a horrible game 7 vs Boston in 2010?

Every great player does the heavy lifting for their team, but none of them can get over the finish line without timely plays by their teammates and a certain amount of luck. That is the reality. As for biggest loser, need I remind you Jerry West lost 8 NBA Finals? Again, it's a team sport. You can cherry pick all you want to fit history into your narrative, but it's just fiction at the end of the day.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 12:14 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
32 wrote:
Team of the 80's wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
2 shots changed lebron's legacy
Ray Allen 3 in game 6 to tie it for the heat
Kyrie's mamba mentality 3 in game 7
We'd be talking about the greatest loser in the history if not for those two shots.


This.


That's a dumb way to look at it. Winning titles is a team game. Also Jerry West was 1-7 and Elgin Baylor was 0-8.


And they aren't in the top 10 for that reason.

Nobody was giving Jerry West the excuse of "Well he'd be 4-4 in the Finals if Boston didn't have such a stacked team" or Elgin Baylor whom almost single handedly was able to bring victories against that Boston unit.

Had LeBron done that ESPN would be all over "Well he should REALLY be Finals MVP and this loss doesn't count..."

LeBron gets so much protection that Jerry West and Elgin Baylor don't, despite the fantastic individual performances they put forth trying to lead the teams against a stacked Boston roster.

Whereas LeBron's individual performances are used to try to erase his losses.

That's the biggest problem and difference.


No one even brings up West and Baylor's epic futility anymore. History washes that away. And I'm not sure what your point is in comparing the media and non-existence social media of the 60s is to the present day. I have no idea what sort of treatment West and Baylor got in the media back then, but yeah, if Baylor got flack for shooting 32% in Game 7 in 62 and missing 5 free throws in a 3 point game, well, that seems fair. Or if West got flack for missing 4 free throws in a close out game 6 in 63 that the Lakers lost by 3, again, deserved.

But the fact that they got over the hump finally has erased those losses in historical memory (except for West's own forever suffering mind). West and Baylor have been retired to the pantheon of all-time greats and no one is nitpicking their individual performances from 50 years ago.

Of course I'm not even sure what the opinion(s) of ESPN has to do with anything. That isn't a real thing. So why do we care? Oh ESPN coddles Lebron, oh no, the sky is falling! It's irrelevant. He consistently performs at the highest level; when you look at the distribution of games he will have some stinkers. That's a given for any player. That sort of fine grain analysis doesn't contribute anything material, it merely feeds some prejudicial argument that a guy is "mentally weak" or "not clutch" or something else (all of which we have data for anyway....).
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 12:38 pm    Post subject:

65 win team and the best player in the world both about to get swept... dayum
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