Does Walton's coaching style cause more player injuries?
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:37 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
No.

Players also didn't adjust well to the changes this season. That first week of the season where it started earlier than usual messed with a lot of teams early on.


More possessions = more opportunity to be injured IMO


Strongly disagree.

Contact = more opportunity to be injured. Running open and free, minimizes it.

Phoenix used to have the best medical staff in the late 00s and just past it. Those guys played almost all their games. Marion, Stoudemire, Nash, etc.

Here's a quick reference. '87 and '88 Lakers were 99.1 pace, #1 in the league.

Current Lakers are 100.3, #2 in the league (due to Zo's absence)

This is after Riley's hard practices, several championship runs.

Now look at the games played and minutes of the most critical players:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1988.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2018.html
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:41 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
No.

Players also didn't adjust well to the changes this season. That first week of the season where it started earlier than usual messed with a lot of teams early on.


More possessions = more opportunity to be injured IMO


Strongly disagree.

Contact = more opportunity to be injured. Running open and free, minimizes it.

Phoenix used to have the best medical staff in the late 00s and just past it. Those guys played almost all their games. Marion, Stoudemire, Nash, etc.

Here's a quick reference. '87 and '88 Lakers were 99.1 pace, #1 in the league.

Current Lakers are 100.3, #2 in the league (due to Zo's absence)

This is after Riley's hard practices, several championship runs.

Now look at the games played and minutes of the most critical players:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1988.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2018.html


Ok but more possessions often leads to more opportunity for contact. That’s my point.
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Sojo
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:52 am    Post subject:

A rise in injuries is happening all over the population in the younger generations. In the military there's suddenly been a rise of trainees in boot camp being injured quite a bit more and the doctors are saying the injuries are like what you'd see in 40 year olds. The fact that testosterone, on avg, is half what our grandfathers had also plays into it. With the further application of science/nutrition along with advances in medical technology the injuries should actually be going down but that's obviously not the case (and yes we can probably also blame pace; many answers to one question).


I blame Fortnite (fun to play but the pop a fort thing is too much of a crutch.)
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:01 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
No.

Players also didn't adjust well to the changes this season. That first week of the season where it started earlier than usual messed with a lot of teams early on.


More possessions = more opportunity to be injured IMO


Strongly disagree.

Contact = more opportunity to be injured. Running open and free, minimizes it.

Phoenix used to have the best medical staff in the late 00s and just past it. Those guys played almost all their games. Marion, Stoudemire, Nash, etc.

Here's a quick reference. '87 and '88 Lakers were 99.1 pace, #1 in the league.

Current Lakers are 100.3, #2 in the league (due to Zo's absence)

This is after Riley's hard practices, several championship runs.

Now look at the games played and minutes of the most critical players:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1988.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2018.html


Ok but more possessions often leads to more opportunity for contact. That’s my point.


That's exactly why I put up pace.

1 possession difference. The only thing in the '88 team's favor is age, so they had time to work on strength and conditioning. But multiple playoff runs, Kareem at 40... still played 80 games.

If you'd like, consider the types of injuries the Lakers got if they were actually from fatigue. Seems like every injury was in the 2nd or 3rd quarter of games, and never past that.
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BigGameHames
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:13 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
No.

Players also didn't adjust well to the changes this season. That first week of the season where it started earlier than usual messed with a lot of teams early on.


More possessions = more opportunity to be injured IMO


Strongly disagree.

Contact = more opportunity to be injured. Running open and free, minimizes it.

Phoenix used to have the best medical staff in the late 00s and just past it. Those guys played almost all their games. Marion, Stoudemire, Nash, etc.

Here's a quick reference. '87 and '88 Lakers were 99.1 pace, #1 in the league.

Current Lakers are 100.3, #2 in the league (due to Zo's absence)

This is after Riley's hard practices, several championship runs.

Now look at the games played and minutes of the most critical players:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1988.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2018.html


Ok but more possessions often leads to more opportunity for contact. That’s my point.


That's exactly why I put up pace.

1 possession difference. The only thing in the '88 team's favor is age, so they had time to work on strength and conditioning. But multiple playoff runs, Kareem at 40... still played 80 games.

If you'd like, consider the types of injuries the Lakers got if they were actually from fatigue. Seems like every injury was in the 2nd or 3rd quarter of games, and never past that.


I never said age wasn’t a factor. Just said I think Walton’s system may have some to do with it too. More possessions=more chance of contact= more chance of injury.
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:13 am    Post subject:

Quote:

I never said age wasn’t a factor. Just said I think Walton’s system may have some to do with it too. More possessions=more chance of contact= more chance of injury.
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So your argument is based on that 1 possession?

Ok.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:00 pm    Post subject:

The OP's premise makes little sense.

Whether a team has the ball for 95 possessions or 100 possessions has no bearing on the number of contact injuries. It only signifies that the team had 5 more possessions. It doesn't mean the players ran into immovable objects 5 more times.

If you got anything out of the exit interviews, you would have heard the discussion that Zo and BI's prolonged absences were because they simply don't have the man bodies necessary to handle the rigors of the NBA. That's why their marching orders for the summer is to get stronger.

We also saw how the FO asked Randall to get stronger last year. By his own admission, Jules said that because he changed his body last summer, he not only rolled through 82 games, but he felt as fresh at the end of the season as he did at the beginning. Obviously Jules is the one guy on the team who plays at a frenetic pace and invites contact at every opportunity, yet he had no injuries during the season.

Obviously fitness is the key.

Walton's system of playing at a frenetic pace has no association with contact. His style of play does not invite contact. What it entails is ball movement and spacing the floor. We also know that if we had better or more 3 point shooters, Luke would love to increase the number of 3 pt attempts which would further increase pace.

There's nothing in Luke's offense that invites contact.

So what about defense?

The game was a lot more physical and violent 20-30 years ago when the games were played in the paint with teams like the Bad Boys and the Knicks or when the Lakers played the Celtics. The games featured possessions that milked the hell out of the shot clock, but they weren't camping on the 3 point line away from contact and running non-contact slip screens on pick and roll. Back in those days, a screen was a brick wall and a flagrant 1, 2, and 3 was nothing more than a common foul.

The league has turned the game a lot softer than it used to be. The way the defensive rules are structured, they're designed to protect and not harm players so you can't blame it on defensive possessions either.

Where there are injuries now is the young players are faster, they jump higher, and they are more agile. However, with many of them coming out at age 19 and 20, they haven't had the coaching and conditioning that properly prepares them on how to run, how to stop, how to jump, how to land, how to plant, etc. etc. etc. It's now to the point where learning this stuff has become as important as learning basketball skills.

Unless you have Kevin McHale or Charles Oakley or Bill Lambeer playing defense against you, the game of basketball is not going to cause you to get hurt.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:54 am    Post subject:

Sojo wrote:
A rise in injuries is happening all over the population in the younger generations. In the military there's suddenly been a rise of trainees in boot camp being injured quite a bit more and the doctors are saying the injuries are like what you'd see in 40 year olds. The fact that testosterone, on avg, is half what our grandfathers had also plays into it. With the further application of science/nutrition along with advances in medical technology the injuries should actually be going down but that's obviously not the case (and yes we can probably also blame pace; many answers to one question).


I blame Fortnite (fun to play but the pop a fort thing is too much of a crutch.)

That's an interesting point. I've heard that claim too but I don't know if it's true. If it is, maybe it's because our society is much more stressed out than it was a couple generations ago (probably due to worrying about money and stuff related to money). I can see how a lack of testosterone can lead to a greater risk of injury.

But to the OP's point, I disagree. Mike@LG made a great counterpoint. The game in the 80s was even faster and those guys probably weren't getting hurt too often.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:18 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
No.

Players also didn't adjust well to the changes this season. That first week of the season where it started earlier than usual messed with a lot of teams early on.


More possessions = more opportunity to be injured IMO


Strongly disagree.

Contact = more opportunity to be injured. Running open and free, minimizes it.

Phoenix used to have the best medical staff in the late 00s and just past it. Those guys played almost all their games. Marion, Stoudemire, Nash, etc.

Here's a quick reference. '87 and '88 Lakers were 99.1 pace, #1 in the league.

Current Lakers are 100.3, #2 in the league (due to Zo's absence)

This is after Riley's hard practices, several championship runs.

Now look at the games played and minutes of the most critical players:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1988.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2018.html


Ok but more possessions often leads to more opportunity for contact. That’s my point.


That's exactly why I put up pace.

1 possession difference. The only thing in the '88 team's favor is age, so they had time to work on strength and conditioning. But multiple playoff runs, Kareem at 40... still played 80 games.

If you'd like, consider the types of injuries the Lakers got if they were actually from fatigue. Seems like every injury was in the 2nd or 3rd quarter of games, and never past that.


I never said age wasn’t a factor. Just said I think Walton’s system may have some to do with it too. More possessions=more chance of contact= more chance of injury.


It's not necessarily linear. It's like saying driving more miles will increase the likelihood of accidents compared to driving less miles. Sure. In a vacuum that is true. That's ignoring hte type of miles being driven though and needs to be reframed. 100 miles on the freeway in 4AM traffic is going to be substantially safer than driving a fraction of that distance drifting around every corner. Slowing down the pace would decrease the the number of possessions but could very well lead to more contact since you're going up against dug in defenses in the half court. So yes, more possessions = more contact is true if and only if each possession had the same likelihood of injury. They don't.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:14 am    Post subject:

Karl Malone is a good example of rigorous conditioning to be able to withstand the long minutes during the regular season. Up to age 39 he was still playing 30+ minutes a game/75+ games a season.

Magic and Rob are spot on to demand the young guys to improve their strength and general conditioning of their bodies to be able to keep up with the pace of today's game.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:12 am    Post subject:

Wino wrote:
I heard a comment the last couple of days that injuries in the NBA are up 30% this year!?? That seems like an impossible jump, but it does seem like there have been a lot of injuries this year.

The weird thing about it is that the league took away alot of the contact that had been allowed before and also mostly shut down the paint. This was all done in the hope that it would increase scoring and lessen wear and tear on the players who have been complaining about the number of games they play.

It is beginning to look like the physical play in the paint, slowed the game down but may actually lessen injuries and that perhaps the injuries are more a result of the speed of the game, rather than the toughness of it.

Any thoughts?


I also read earlier this year that DNP-Rests were down 34% this year, so some of these injury designations could be inflating the stats a little with the league trying to prevent that. Teams just claiming more injuries than rest. But I think another huge change has been shortening training camp and preseason. I’m not sure coaches and players were prepared for that and you had more players entering the season who weren’t in game shape.

We’ve had seasons of fast paced ball with less injuries in the past. I even wonder if there might be less contact these days because of the reliance on space and long shots. Although, who knows. Could also be less post possessions which may not be prone to injury and less midrange in exchange for attempts at the rim by guards. Hard to say. A lot of variables to pull apart.

I don’t think shortening training camp/preseason did anyone any favors, though. That seems to me to be the most vital time for gearing up for a season. Hopefully players adjust their off seasons to hit the ground running a bit more in the preseason.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:13 am    Post subject:

Goldenwest wrote:
the injuries probably seemed worse than they really were. I'm guessing these guys (Ingram, Lonzo, Kuzma) would be playing if the Lakers were fighting for playoff position. Like its been said elsewhere, the Lakers were extra cautious given that the team was not in playoff contention.

They're young, they can handle the fast pace and didn't seem Luke was overplaying anyone.


Agreed.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:33 am    Post subject:

No, I don’t think so.

I’ve been harsh on luke for a number of things. This isnt one of them.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:39 pm    Post subject:

oldschool32 wrote:
Wino wrote:
I heard a comment the last couple of days that injuries in the NBA are up 30% this year!?? That seems like an impossible jump, but it does seem like there have been a lot of injuries


That is crazy if true? It sure seems like injuries have been ticking upward, which seems likely when you go at 100mph vs 65mph for 30+mpg. Anyone got any info on that?


Up 42% in terms of games missed, as of February.

Link

The total games missed wound up just over 5,500, which is the highest since the league got rid of the injured reserve list. As of the all-star break, we were the second healthiest team in the league.

Link

I haven't seen final numbers for the season.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:58 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
Sojo wrote:
A rise in injuries is happening all over the population in the younger generations. In the military there's suddenly been a rise of trainees in boot camp being injured quite a bit more and the doctors are saying the injuries are like what you'd see in 40 year olds. The fact that testosterone, on avg, is half what our grandfathers had also plays into it. With the further application of science/nutrition along with advances in medical technology the injuries should actually be going down but that's obviously not the case (and yes we can probably also blame pace; many answers to one question).


I blame Fortnite (fun to play but the pop a fort thing is too much of a crutch.)

That's an interesting point. I've heard that claim too but I don't know if it's true. If it is, maybe it's because our society is much more stressed out than it was a couple generations ago (probably due to worrying about money and stuff related to money). I can see how a lack of testosterone can lead to a greater risk of injury.

But to the OP's point, I disagree. Mike@LG made a great counterpoint. The game in the 80s was even faster and those guys probably weren't getting hurt too often.


Sounds to me like the players need whatever supplements Shawn Kemp was taking. He didn't have any testosterone issues.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject:

misterioso wrote:
slavavov wrote:
Sojo wrote:
A rise in injuries is happening all over the population in the younger generations. In the military there's suddenly been a rise of trainees in boot camp being injured quite a bit more and the doctors are saying the injuries are like what you'd see in 40 year olds. The fact that testosterone, on avg, is half what our grandfathers had also plays into it. With the further application of science/nutrition along with advances in medical technology the injuries should actually be going down but that's obviously not the case (and yes we can probably also blame pace; many answers to one question).


I blame Fortnite (fun to play but the pop a fort thing is too much of a crutch.)

That's an interesting point. I've heard that claim too but I don't know if it's true. If it is, maybe it's because our society is much more stressed out than it was a couple generations ago (probably due to worrying about money and stuff related to money). I can see how a lack of testosterone can lead to a greater risk of injury.

But to the OP's point, I disagree. Mike@LG made a great counterpoint. The game in the 80s was even faster and those guys probably weren't getting hurt too often.


Sounds to me like the players need whatever supplements Shawn Kemp was taking. He didn't have any testosterone issues.

How would taking cocaine prevent NBA players from getting injured?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:29 am    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
misterioso wrote:
slavavov wrote:
Sojo wrote:
A rise in injuries is happening all over the population in the younger generations. In the military there's suddenly been a rise of trainees in boot camp being injured quite a bit more and the doctors are saying the injuries are like what you'd see in 40 year olds. The fact that testosterone, on avg, is half what our grandfathers had also plays into it. With the further application of science/nutrition along with advances in medical technology the injuries should actually be going down but that's obviously not the case (and yes we can probably also blame pace; many answers to one question).


I blame Fortnite (fun to play but the pop a fort thing is too much of a crutch.)

That's an interesting point. I've heard that claim too but I don't know if it's true. If it is, maybe it's because our society is much more stressed out than it was a couple generations ago (probably due to worrying about money and stuff related to money). I can see how a lack of testosterone can lead to a greater risk of injury.

But to the OP's point, I disagree. Mike@LG made a great counterpoint. The game in the 80s was even faster and those guys probably weren't getting hurt too often.


Sounds to me like the players need whatever supplements Shawn Kemp was taking. He didn't have any testosterone issues.

How would taking cocaine prevent NBA players from getting injured?


It wasn't a comment about his cocaine use; it was about his libido. Perhaps it was too long ago for anyone to remember. It was meant in jest.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:55 am    Post subject:

Sojo wrote:
A rise in injuries is happening all over the population in the younger generations. In the military there's suddenly been a rise of trainees in boot camp being injured quite a bit more and the doctors are saying the injuries are like what you'd see in 40 year olds. The fact that testosterone, on avg, is half what our grandfathers had also plays into it. With the further application of science/nutrition along with advances in medical technology the injuries should actually be going down but that's obviously not the case (and yes we can probably also blame pace; many answers to one question).


I blame Fortnite (fun to play but the pop a fort thing is too much of a crutch.)


Christ, I don't know how I missed this post. Is this real? As a middle aged man that's resraching every way to stem the tide, I'd love to get some links on this. W...t..h...]
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:23 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
No.

Players also didn't adjust well to the changes this season. That first week of the season where it started earlier than usual messed with a lot of teams early on.


More possessions = more opportunity to be injured IMO


Strongly disagree.

Contact = more opportunity to be injured. Running open and free, minimizes it.

Phoenix used to have the best medical staff in the late 00s and just past it. Those guys played almost all their games. Marion, Stoudemire, Nash, etc.

Here's a quick reference. '87 and '88 Lakers were 99.1 pace, #1 in the league.

Current Lakers are 100.3, #2 in the league (due to Zo's absence)

This is after Riley's hard practices, several championship runs.

Now look at the games played and minutes of the most critical players:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1988.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2018.html


Ok but more possessions often leads to more opportunity for contact. That’s my point.


That's exactly why I put up pace.

1 possession difference. The only thing in the '88 team's favor is age, so they had time to work on strength and conditioning. But multiple playoff runs, Kareem at 40... still played 80 games.

If you'd like, consider the types of injuries the Lakers got if they were actually from fatigue. Seems like every injury was in the 2nd or 3rd quarter of games, and never past that.


I never said age wasn’t a factor. Just said I think Walton’s system may have some to do with it too. More possessions=more chance of contact= more chance of injury.


So there is a study that offense creates more injuries? That seems to be the basis of your argument, offensive possessions are the cause of injuries.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:07 am    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
Sojo wrote:
A rise in injuries is happening all over the population in the younger generations. In the military there's suddenly been a rise of trainees in boot camp being injured quite a bit more and the doctors are saying the injuries are like what you'd see in 40 year olds. The fact that testosterone, on avg, is half what our grandfathers had also plays into it. With the further application of science/nutrition along with advances in medical technology the injuries should actually be going down but that's obviously not the case (and yes we can probably also blame pace; many answers to one question).


I blame Fortnite (fun to play but the pop a fort thing is too much of a crutch.)


Christ, I don't know how I missed this post. Is this real? As a middle aged man that's resraching every way to stem the tide, I'd love to get some links on this. W...t..h...]


https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/10/02/youre-not-the-man-your-father-was/#4b4cf5308b7f
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:00 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
No.

Players also didn't adjust well to the changes this season. That first week of the season where it started earlier than usual messed with a lot of teams early on.


More possessions = more opportunity to be injured IMO


Strongly disagree.

Contact = more opportunity to be injured. Running open and free, minimizes it.

Phoenix used to have the best medical staff in the late 00s and just past it. Those guys played almost all their games. Marion, Stoudemire, Nash, etc.

Here's a quick reference. '87 and '88 Lakers were 99.1 pace, #1 in the league.

Current Lakers are 100.3, #2 in the league (due to Zo's absence)

This is after Riley's hard practices, several championship runs.

Now look at the games played and minutes of the most critical players:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1988.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2018.html


Ok but more possessions often leads to more opportunity for contact. That’s my point.


That's exactly why I put up pace.

1 possession difference. The only thing in the '88 team's favor is age, so they had time to work on strength and conditioning. But multiple playoff runs, Kareem at 40... still played 80 games.

If you'd like, consider the types of injuries the Lakers got if they were actually from fatigue. Seems like every injury was in the 2nd or 3rd quarter of games, and never past that.


I never said age wasn’t a factor. Just said I think Walton’s system may have some to do with it too. More possessions=more chance of contact= more chance of injury.


So there is a study that offense creates more injuries? That seems to be the basis of your argument, offensive possessions are the cause of injuries.


No. Possessions on either end of the ball. They lead to more contact which leads to more injuries. The more opportunity you have to be injured, the more you’ll be injured on average.
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socalsp3
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:46 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
No, I don’t think so.

I’ve been harsh on luke for a number of things. This isnt one of them.


Well there was that one game where he played Kuz 45 mins and Randle 10 mins. kuz ended up injured for a few games
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deal
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:55 am    Post subject:

Every time your on the court you can get injured, lol. If we
were talking B. Scott running people ragged in practice to then
play, I'd say there could be an issue.
Walton's style is an opportunity for any young player to
excel.

Finally, the 3 who did not play, at seasons end, was just to ensure
they did not get injured when there was nothing to play for.

Bottom line, no, Luke's style of play is fine.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:09 am    Post subject:

If someone here has set up a robust longitudinal study isolating the variable of a coach's contribution to player injury, I sincerely look forward to reading your peer reviewed jounal article. That is some groundbreaking work, kudos.
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