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BR: Re-Drafting 2017 NBA Draft (Ball #4, Kuzma #9, Hart #20)
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BigGameHames
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 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Harlemlakerfan wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Harlemlakerfan wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | We got a steal in Kuzma but Kuzma>Tatum as a prospect is laughable. |
Everybody keeps saying that yet, nobody is giving any credible reasons as to why Tatum is so much better than Kuz. |
More efficient scorer, better shooter, better defender, slightly worse rebounder, similar passer
He’s also 2.5 years younger which makes me think Tatum has more potential as a rebounder/passer/shot creator as he fills in his body and gains experience.
The Celtics were much better than the Lakers this year. The Celtics were statistically better with Tatum on the floor and the Lakers were statistically worse with Kuz on the floor. |
Think about efficient Kuz would have been with a Kyrie Irving drawing the defense and kicking it to him wide open. Kuz had t create a lot of his offense on his own. Wait til he is playing with a top 10 player in the league then we will talk about efficiency.
Yes the Celtics were better, they were an all around better team! Go back and check the video of when they played against each other and Kuz cooked his a$$! |
Kyrie averaged 2.1 less assists per game than Kuzmas PG. Kuzma was getting the ball kicked out to him for wide open shots constantly. He didn’t have to create a ton of offense. The Celtics were outscored by opponents on the year when Tatum was out. Think about that. They were really good but when Tatum was out, they were outscored by their opponents over the course of the year.
Tatum made 262 assisted shots and 97 of those were 3s.
He also made 135 unassisted shots and 8 of those were 3s.
66% of his makes were assisted and 92% of his 3s were.
Kuzma made 304 assisted shots and 140 were 3s.
He also made 164 unassisted shots and 19 were 3s.
65% of his makes were assisted and 88% of his 3s were.
Those assist/unassisted numbers are pretty similar.
One game doesn’t prove much.
Last edited by BigGameHames on Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CervantesRises
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Harlemlakerfan wrote: | | E=MC² wrote: | | Harlemlakerfan wrote: | | I'm still trying to figure out why people keep putting Tatum over Kuz? Its like Tatum got all of this hype early and people kept running with it. Kuz outplayed him both times this year and had a better statistical year. |
Yep, this is purely cause Kuz was a late first pick, it's the only reason this is even a debate, f he were picked at 5 or 6 he would be #2 on the redraft |
If you told me, right now that we could trade Kuz for Tatum, straight up, I would say no. |
And if I were the team owner I would fire you. |
Thank God you're not.
But I tepidly agree that on age alone we'd have to consider it...still I like Kuz, he personality, his game, and his drive more than I like Tatum's youth.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Harlemlakerfan wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Right, comparing Kuzma to Duncan is spot on. How about Kareem, he also had 4 years in college so Kuzma = Kareem. Every person has an age where they stop developing physically and begin regression. The more years of NBA development up to that point the better. It is a simple concept. Randle and Kuzma are the same age but the NBA experience Randle has gained made him the better NBA player. Kuzma is a good player and I am happy he is a Laker but if I could magically swap him for Tatum, I would. And Boston wouldn’t consider it. |
You clearly missed the entire point. Randle is in his 4th season! Lets see what Kuzma is in his 4th season. You talk about bad comparisons, comparing a player in his 4th season to a player in his rookie year is absolutely insane. Randle is the so called better player because, he actually played a few seasons. He had a few years to develop. Kuzma was a rookie, playing most of the season off the bench and yet avg'd just as many PPG's as Randle did. |
No, you missed the point, Randle and Kuzma are the same age. Everything else you posted pretty much agrees with my argument.
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CervantesRises
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Harlemlakerfan wrote: | | Why do y'all keep using the age factor? They are BOTH rookies. The BOTh came in the league at the same time. Age doesn't mean jack. |
Age means a LOT in terms of player development and projections. Kuz is further along developmentally at this time and Tatum is still the better prospect using analytics...Tatum at 23 will likely be better than Rudy Gay at his best, so we're talking like 21 to 24 ppg. Kuz might get there too, but it will be at age 24 to 26 if ever.
That being said...no way do I trade Kuz for Tatum because something tells me Kuz is going to be an outlier along the lines of Draymond Green in terms of team impact, but without the histrionics if he can keep himself focused in a damn hard city to do just that.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Harlemlakerfan wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | We got a steal in Kuzma but Kuzma>Tatum as a prospect is laughable. |
Everybody keeps saying that yet, nobody is giving any credible reasons as to why Tatum is so much better than Kuz. |
I would say Tatum's defensive abilities. |
Defense. He's a better shooter. And he has more potential for physical development, since he's younger.
It will be interesting to see what happens with Kuzma. It wouldn't surprise me if he continues to develop, but it also wouldn't surprise me to see his rookie year ending up being the best year of his career. |
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CervantesRises
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| deal wrote: | | Jordan-esque wrote: | | Threatt_Level wrote: | As messed up as Lonzo's shot is, he still posted a higher BPM than Tatum and Mitchell, and his VORP was also higher than Tatum while less than Mitchell (but closer to Mitchell than Tatum). I don't think it's cut-and-dried that Tatum should be ahead of Lonzo in a re-draft.
If Lonzo shot just 42% from the field and 65% from the free throw line, his TS% would be closer to 53%; his PER would've gone from 12.95 to closer to 15.8 - which puts him about halfway between Tatum and Mitchell; and his BPM would've likely been closer to 3 - which would've put him way ahead of Tatum and Mitchell (and probably only behind Simmons for rookies). |
But he didn't.
/devilsadvocate |
Yeah, there are no "IF" in results... |
There's no IF in redraft either...but it's the offseason and here we are.
Additionally it's impossible to project a player's season stats in a completely different situation...does Mitchell have the same season on the Kings? What if Zo was in Boston and Tatum was a Laker?
It's hypothetical...and most of us are taking work breaks to yammer on endlessly about things that we have much more emotion than intellect regarding.
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CervantesRises
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Harlemlakerfan wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | We got a steal in Kuzma but Kuzma>Tatum as a prospect is laughable. |
Everybody keeps saying that yet, nobody is giving any credible reasons as to why Tatum is so much better than Kuz. |
I would say Tatum's defensive abilities. |
Defense. He's a better shooter. And he has more potential for physical development, since he's younger.
It will be interesting to see what happens with Kuzma. It wouldn't surprise me if he continues to develop, but it also wouldn't surprise me to see his rookie year ending up being the best year of his career. |
If this year is the best year of his career then he didn't put in any work in the offseason and won't be a Laker beyond next year so it matters little to us.
Fortunately kid looks like he has a big mouth, enjoys pressure, and understands that everything he wants comes after the hard work is done.
Plus Kobe is obviously a mentor...I doubt Kobe wastes his time with guys who aren't devoted to their craft.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| CervantesRises wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Harlemlakerfan wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | We got a steal in Kuzma but Kuzma>Tatum as a prospect is laughable. |
Everybody keeps saying that yet, nobody is giving any credible reasons as to why Tatum is so much better than Kuz. |
I would say Tatum's defensive abilities. |
Defense. He's a better shooter. And he has more potential for physical development, since he's younger.
It will be interesting to see what happens with Kuzma. It wouldn't surprise me if he continues to develop, but it also wouldn't surprise me to see his rookie year ending up being the best year of his career. |
If this year is the best year of his career then he didn't put in any work in the offseason and won't be a Laker beyond next year so it matters little to us.
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Maybe. Or it could be he came into the league more ready than other rookies and into a great positions where he got a more opportunity and shots than he would have on a lot of teams.
Not every player improves, no matter how much they work. We'll see what happens with Kuzma. |
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CervantesRises
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | CervantesRises wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Harlemlakerfan wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | We got a steal in Kuzma but Kuzma>Tatum as a prospect is laughable. |
Everybody keeps saying that yet, nobody is giving any credible reasons as to why Tatum is so much better than Kuz. |
I would say Tatum's defensive abilities. |
Defense. He's a better shooter. And he has more potential for physical development, since he's younger.
It will be interesting to see what happens with Kuzma. It wouldn't surprise me if he continues to develop, but it also wouldn't surprise me to see his rookie year ending up being the best year of his career. |
If this year is the best year of his career then he didn't put in any work in the offseason and won't be a Laker beyond next year so it matters little to us.
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Maybe. Or it could be he came into the league more ready than other rookies and into a great positions where he got a more opportunity and shots than he would have on a lot of teams.
Not every player improves, no matter how much they work. We'll see what happens with Kuzma. |
Regardless of sport or business or scholastic endeavors or health...people who put the work in to improve, improve.
Please tell me the player that worked his ass off incessantly each off season and didn't improve.
That's not how neurosynaptic plasticity (aka muscle memory) works.
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adkindo
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | deal wrote: | | Threatt_Level wrote: | | deal wrote: | | Jordan-esque wrote: | | Threatt_Level wrote: | As messed up as Lonzo's shot is, he still posted a higher BPM than Tatum and Mitchell, and his VORP was also higher than Tatum while less than Mitchell (but closer to Mitchell than Tatum). I don't think it's cut-and-dried that Tatum should be ahead of Lonzo in a re-draft.
If Lonzo shot just 42% from the field and 65% from the free throw line, his TS% would be closer to 53%; his PER would've gone from 12.95 to closer to 15.8 - which puts him about halfway between Tatum and Mitchell; and his BPM would've likely been closer to 3 - which would've put him way ahead of Tatum and Mitchell (and probably only behind Simmons for rookies). |
But he didn't.
/devilsadvocate |
Yeah, there are no "IF" in results... |
Well, the actual results still put Lonzo with a higher BPM than either Tatum or Mitchell, despite the horrendous shooting. Re-drafts this early are done on potential after a small sample size. It's a lot easier to project Lonzo becoming a slightly below-average shooter than Mitchell or Tatum becoming superstar offensive players. |
STAT's are great but I've watched enough real basketball of all three. Mitchell and Tatum top Lonzo today. I would not blink to pick them over Lonzo, given the chance. What will that look like in 5 years?, We'll see, but it may not change that much. |
Both were put in much better situations and were asked to do much less. I agree Mitchell is better today, I don’t think Tatum is. |
wow, I disagree with this....no rookie this season....or in most seasons came into a situation as good as Lonzo. Everything that was implemented was somewhat based on his skills and strengths....the entire organization went overboard to try to ensure his personal success. Luke protected him in lineups all year.....he was rarely on the court with several end of the bench guys. In comparison, Luke never hesitated to throw Ingram, Kuz or Randle out there with a lineup of end of the bench guys. The organization made sure that the rest of the roster had to strive to fit with Lonzo.....and every single other rookie from this class had to fit into schemes that were not implemented with them in mind. |
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Runway8
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| A bunch of you are suckers for the flavors of the month. It has happened time and time again in the NBA. Players debut in the NBA like a bat outta hell, only to not progress, stay where they are, or even regress. I would even caution us to not get too excited about Kyle Kuzma. I'm good with Lonzo. He'll be waiting for his draft class, with time to spare, at the finish line. |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | deal wrote: | | Threatt_Level wrote: | | deal wrote: | | Jordan-esque wrote: | | Threatt_Level wrote: | As messed up as Lonzo's shot is, he still posted a higher BPM than Tatum and Mitchell, and his VORP was also higher than Tatum while less than Mitchell (but closer to Mitchell than Tatum). I don't think it's cut-and-dried that Tatum should be ahead of Lonzo in a re-draft.
If Lonzo shot just 42% from the field and 65% from the free throw line, his TS% would be closer to 53%; his PER would've gone from 12.95 to closer to 15.8 - which puts him about halfway between Tatum and Mitchell; and his BPM would've likely been closer to 3 - which would've put him way ahead of Tatum and Mitchell (and probably only behind Simmons for rookies). |
But he didn't.
/devilsadvocate |
Yeah, there are no "IF" in results... |
Well, the actual results still put Lonzo with a higher BPM than either Tatum or Mitchell, despite the horrendous shooting. Re-drafts this early are done on potential after a small sample size. It's a lot easier to project Lonzo becoming a slightly below-average shooter than Mitchell or Tatum becoming superstar offensive players. |
STAT's are great but I've watched enough real basketball of all three. Mitchell and Tatum top Lonzo today. I would not blink to pick them over Lonzo, given the chance. What will that look like in 5 years?, We'll see, but it may not change that much. |
Both were put in much better situations and were asked to do much less. I agree Mitchell is better today, I don’t think Tatum is. |
wow, I disagree with this....no rookie this season....or in most seasons came into a situation as good as Lonzo. Everything that was implemented was somewhat based on his skills and strengths....the entire organization went overboard to try to ensure his personal success. Luke protected him in lineups all year.....he was rarely on the court with several end of the bench guys. In comparison, Luke never hesitated to throw Ingram, Kuz or Randle out there with a lineup of end of the bench guys. The organization made sure that the rest of the roster had to strive to fit with Lonzo.....and every single other rookie from this class had to fit into schemes that were not implemented with them in mind. |
Not only did UCLA protect him on defense by playing zone but now Luke is protecting him with lineups and the entire organization is catering to him. Got it.
They were preaching this style of play before Lonzo was drafted. They wanted to create a team that plays uptempo and shares the ball and they preached versatility on defense. They didn’t change that after Lonzo was drafted, that was always the vision.
They already played fast last year but they became the fastest team in the NBA when Lonzo was healthy. They were 26th in assists last year, 7th this year. Last in defensive rating last year, 12th this year. They always knew what they wanted to do but he was a huge reason why they were able to do those things this year.
Meanwhile, Mitchell and Tatum stepped into clear roles on established playoff teams with systems in place. |
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Terra4Gary
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | Love Kuz but would happily trade him for Tatum.
And Kuz is my fave Laker right now too. |
I agree, but I wouldn't say happily! |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | Not only did UCLA protect him on defense by playing zone but now Luke is protecting him with lineups and the entire organization is catering to him. Got it.
They were preaching this style of play before Lonzo was drafted. They wanted to create a team that plays uptempo and shares the ball and they preached versatility on defense. They didn’t change that after Lonzo was drafted, that was always the vision.
They already played fast last year but they became the fastest team in the NBA when Lonzo was healthy. They were 26th in assists last year, 7th this year. Last in defensive rating last year, 12th this year. They always knew what they wanted to do but he was a huge reason why they were able to do those things this year.
Meanwhile, Mitchell and Tatum stepped into clear roles on established playoff teams with systems in place. |
even if your correct about it being more about them wanting to play the style that suits him....which I admit is an argument with substance.....there was no organization more tied to the perception of a rookie having success than the Lakers, and especially the FO....and they did everything within reason to ensure that happened. I feel like you got hung up on the word "protect", but I was simply pointing out Luke worked harder at ensuring he was on the court surrounded by the best options we had, while the same attention was not given to ensure any other player avoided poor lineups.
Mitchell definitely did not step into a clear role, nor was Utah a clear playoff roster. Most projections had Utah slipping and missing the playoffs after Gordon exited. Mitchell was not even starting to begin the season, and the Utah staff has spoken about them being unsure of what to really do with him early on and how over the season he continued to force them to give him more freedom and control.
In regards to Tatum, on opening night he was expected to start @ the #4 and get moderate minutes.....Hayward goes down, he immediately becomes the starting SF who is required to produce material offense for a team....and on that night....many questioned if they would actually be able to be a playoff team without Hayward. |
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BigBallerBrand
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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everyone needs to relax. just pretend we had the #2 pick, and then traded it for the #4 pick and the #9 pick. and pretend lonzo was availalbe at #4 and we drafted kuzma at #9. how do u guys feel now
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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I am glad we drafted Lonzo and Kuzma when we did
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matigol
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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Age is huge to value so Tatum>Kuzma
the rest is pretty similar and they're very close
Can't see the huge gap on defense. Kuz made some good plays on that end too.
But they're rookies and both got schooled al lot this season
Tatum is a better shooter and Kuz is a more versatile scorer.
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Annihilator
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| BigBallerBrand wrote: | | everyone needs to relax. just pretend we had the #2 pick, and then traded it for the #4 pick and the #9 pick. and pretend lonzo was availalbe at #4 and we drafted kuzma at #9. how do u guys feel now |
And the Lakers traded #27 and #30 to move up in the draft to get #20 (Hart)?
| venturalakersfan wrote: | | I am glad we drafted Lonzo and Kuzma when we did |
If the Lakers are as successful in this year's draft at #25 as they were last year at #27, we will be very lucky.
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | Not only did UCLA protect him on defense by playing zone but now Luke is protecting him with lineups and the entire organization is catering to him. Got it.
They were preaching this style of play before Lonzo was drafted. They wanted to create a team that plays uptempo and shares the ball and they preached versatility on defense. They didn’t change that after Lonzo was drafted, that was always the vision.
They already played fast last year but they became the fastest team in the NBA when Lonzo was healthy. They were 26th in assists last year, 7th this year. Last in defensive rating last year, 12th this year. They always knew what they wanted to do but he was a huge reason why they were able to do those things this year.
Meanwhile, Mitchell and Tatum stepped into clear roles on established playoff teams with systems in place. |
even if your correct about it being more about them wanting to play the style that suits him....which I admit is an argument with substance.....there was no organization more tied to the perception of a rookie having success than the Lakers, and especially the FO....and they did everything within reason to ensure that happened. I feel like you got hung up on the word "protect", but I was simply pointing out Luke worked harder at ensuring he was on the court surrounded by the best options we had, while the same attention was not given to ensure any other player avoided poor lineups.
Mitchell definitely did not step into a clear role, nor was Utah a clear playoff roster. Most projections had Utah slipping and missing the playoffs after Gordon exited. Mitchell was not even starting to begin the season, and the Utah staff has spoken about them being unsure of what to really do with him early on and how over the season he continued to force them to give him more freedom and control.
In regards to Tatum, on opening night he was expected to start @ the #4 and get moderate minutes.....Hayward goes down, he immediately becomes the starting SF who is required to produce material offense for a team....and on that night....many questioned if they would actually be able to be a playoff team without Hayward. |
Mitchell joined a team that had made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs the year before. They have NBA veterans all over the roster. They had a culture, style of play, and system already put in place. They expected to plug him in as a 3-D guy but when he exceeded expectations they enhanced his role. He started of with a clear role and they didn’t know what to do with him after they realized he could do more.
Tatum joined a team that’s been near the top of the East for a few years and has star talent around him. They plugged him into a 3-D role and he hasn’t been asked to create much offense of his own. What number they started him at didn’t change any of that very much at all.
Lonzo joined a bottom feeder and was expected to play the toughest position in the sport while establishing a new culture, style of play, and system. It’s not a secret that they wanted to play the way Lonzo likes to. It’s a fact that they were open about since Luke was hired.
I think you’re making up stuff that simply isn’t true at this point. Saying they avoided putting him in lineups with bad players and catered to him etc. I simply think that’s not true. Not sure why they would announce the crazy expectations they had for him if they wanted to protect him. I’m not hung up on the word protect, that’s just a word you often use in your claims about Lonzo being put in protected situation after protected situation. Claims that aren’t factual. Just like UCLA wasn’t hiding him defensively, the Lakers haven’t been catering to Lonzo. |
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Lonzo'sBalls
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Kuz still too low. Hart probably too. By the end of the year, Hart was a legit starting 2 guard in this league. 22? Naaaaah |
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Megaton
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Megaton wrote: | Hart in the last 5 games as a starter was a 23 ppg, 7 rpg player with great efficient shooting numbers.
Definitely should be better than 20 imo. |
I just don't think he got enough minutes/reps to garner the attention. He balled out at the end, but most national pundits probably thought it was in meaningless games.
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Megaton
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Megaton wrote: | Hart in the last 5 games as a starter was a 23 ppg, 7 rpg player with great efficient shooting numbers.
Definitely should be better than 20 imo. |
I just don't think he got enough minutes/reps to garner the attention. He balled out at the end, but most national pundits probably thought it was in meaningless games. |
Yeah I'm aware. It's just a couple of players in front of him like Kennard should not be in front of him since he played similar minutes.
I understand others just because they were full time starters and better draft positions so they are more known.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Megaton wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Megaton wrote: | Hart in the last 5 games as a starter was a 23 ppg, 7 rpg player with great efficient shooting numbers.
Definitely should be better than 20 imo. |
I just don't think he got enough minutes/reps to garner the attention. He balled out at the end, but most national pundits probably thought it was in meaningless games. |
Yeah I'm aware. It's just a couple of players in front of him like Kennard should not be in front of him since he played similar minutes.
I understand others just because they were full time starters and better draft positions so they are more known. |
Yup. How many national guys were watching the last 5 games where guys like Caruso were starting? They probably glance at Hart's pedestrian overall averages and say, eh. But being drafted 30th and being recognized as a 20th pick is a big improvement. He's proven his value to us.
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Joined: 27 Mar 2015
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:54 am Post subject: |
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USA today lists a re-draft:
1. Philadelphia 76ers – Jayson Tatum (actual selection: 3)
2. Los Angeles Lakers – Donovan Mitchell (actual selection: 13)
3. Boston Celtics – Lauri Markkanen (actual selection: 7)
4. Phoenix Suns – Lonzo Ball (actual selection: 2)
5. Sacramento Kings – Markelle Fultz (actual selection: 1)
6. Orlando Magic – Dennis Smith Jr. (actual selection: 9)
7. Chicago Bulls – Kyle Kuzma (actual selection: 27)
8. New York Knicks – Josh Jackson (actual selection: 4)
9. Dallas Mavericks – De’Aaron Fox (actual selection: 5)
10. Portland Trailblazers – Jonathan Isaac (actual selection: 6)
11. Charlotte Hornets – John Collins (actual selection: 19)
12. Detroit Pistons – Josh Hart (actual selection: 30)
13. Utah Jazz – Jarrett Allen (actual selection: 22)
14. Miami Heat – Bam Adebayo (actual selection: 14)
https://thebiglead.com/2018/04/11/re-draft-of-the-2017-nba-lottery-picks/?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5acf191104d30146d952d509&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter
Lauri too high. I have lonzo at 3 but Kuzma and Hart look about right. In any case, talk about getting some steals. We literally had 3 lottery picks last year. |
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