BR: Re-Drafting 2017 NBA Draft (Ball #4, Kuzma #9, Hart #20)
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:25 pm    Post subject:

Not a bad redraft list at all. I might put Hart slightly higher. I think the reason he doesnt get as much love is because his perceived ceiling is lower than most of the guys redrafted ahead of him.

Kuzma feels like he should be higher, but, I get it with the other names on the list.

I think Fultz should be a little lower.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:26 pm    Post subject:

How the heck is Fultz 2nd if Lonzo is 4th?

You could argue Tatum or Lonzo at 2, but Fultz? come on.

I guess 5 games from Fultz is "THIS IS WHY HE WAS PICKED BY MANY TO GO NUMBER 1!"

But Lonzo drops all the way to 4th somehow.

Same article says "Josh Jackson had a strong 2nd half of the season but that doesn't really mean much" when he about 2 picks earlier goes about Fultz's what.. 3-4 game stretch was enough to prove why people had him 1st and enough to say he should be the 2nd pick
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2019
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:22 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
I'd take Tatum over Fultz with the 2nd pick.


The Grind wrote:
Point is we got ourselves a couple of steals this past draft.


Kuzma and Hart are steals but what about Lonzo?

He's the best player in the draft, so at #2 he was a little bit of a steal


He is or he will be because right now, it looks like Mitchell is the best rookie.

He will be, but Tatum is the best rookie right now, regardless.


Was Tatum really better than Kuzma? Numbers indicate it's incredibly close. I mean, the same argument about Lonzo vs Mitchell being on a playoff team versus not being on what should be applied to Kuz and JT.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:24 pm    Post subject:

We for 2 pottery level players and a mid first level player in hart. Why are people up in arms?
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:37 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Durant is a great one on one player. However, he doesn't have the same gravity as Curry, who's ability to play off the ball makes the entire defense constantly shift to keep track of him thereby creating seems for everyone else to exploit. Curry makes Golden State's offense run much more than Durant can.

Durant is an incredible off-ball player and I think he's currently the best player in the NBA above Lebron and Steph by a hair.


Lol. I posted this in the wrong thread.



I figured, but it's a fun debate so I thought I'd respond.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:46 pm    Post subject:

2019 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
I'd take Tatum over Fultz with the 2nd pick.


The Grind wrote:
Point is we got ourselves a couple of steals this past draft.


Kuzma and Hart are steals but what about Lonzo?

He's the best player in the draft, so at #2 he was a little bit of a steal


He is or he will be because right now, it looks like Mitchell is the best rookie.

He will be, but Tatum is the best rookie right now, regardless.


Was Tatum really better than Kuzma? Numbers indicate it's incredibly close. I mean, the same argument about Lonzo vs Mitchell being on a playoff team versus not being on what should be applied to Kuz and JT.

Just pulling in advanced stats, Tatum was the overall more impactful two-way player while being nearly three years younger.

Given the Celtics injuries, it's hard not to see Tatum as a source of his team's success rather than being merely a young role-player riding the wave of a good team. Having Kyrie as a focal point and Brad Stevens as a coach certainly helped him out of the gates, but he was rock solid as a defender from day one and played really smart, impactful ball for most of the season. I think his ceiling may be lower than some of the guard's in the 2017 draft since he's not much of a creator, but Tatum's two-way impact was more impressive to me than Kuzma's advanced scoring this season, and long-term Tatum should have the edge, though Kuz could continue to be an outlier.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: BR: Re-Drafting 2017 NBA Draft (Ball #4, Kuzma #9, Hart #20)

Am I the only guy who thinks Jason Tatum is vastly overrated by people? Yes he contributed to a strong team but aside from his three point shooting (which is great) his numbers are solid but not overwhelming:

Tatum: 13.9 points (47.5% fg, 43.4% 3p), 5 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 1.0 steals, 0.7 blocks in 30.5 minutes.
Mitchell: 20.5 points (43.7% fg, 34% 3p), 3.7 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 1.5 steals, 0.3 blocks in 33.4 minutes
Ball: 10.2 points (36% fg, 30.5% 3p), 6.9 rebounds, 7.2 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.8 blocks in 34.2 minutes
Kuzma: 16.1 points (45% fg, 36.6% 3p), 6.3 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 0.6 steals, 0.4 blocks in 31.2 minutes
Fultz: 7.1 points (40.5% fg, 31.3% 3p), 3.1 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 0.9 steals, 0.3 blocks in 18.1 minutes
Smith Jr: 15.2 points (39.5% fg, 31.3% 3p), 3.8 rebounds, 5.2 assists, 1 steal, 0.3 blocks in 29.7 minutes
Jackson: 13.1 points (41.7% fg, 26.3% 3p), 4.6 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 1 steal, 0.5 blocks in 25.4 minutes
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: BR: Re-Drafting 2017 NBA Draft (Ball #4, Kuzma #9, Hart #20)

J.C. Smith wrote:
Am I the only guy who thinks Jason Tatum is vastly overrated by people? Yes he contributed to a strong team but aside from his three point shooting (which is great) his numbers are solid but not overwhelming:

Tatum: 13.9 points (47.5% fg, 43.4% 3p), 5 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 1.0 steals, 0.7 blocks in 30.5 minutes.
Mitchell: 20.5 points (43.7% fg, 34% 3p), 3.7 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 1.5 steals, 0.3 blocks in 33.4 minutes
Ball: 10.2 points (36% fg, 30.5% 3p), 6.9 rebounds, 7.2 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.8 blocks in 34.2 minutes
Kuzma: 16.1 points (45% fg, 36.6% 3p), 6.3 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 0.6 steals, 0.4 blocks in 31.2 minutes
Fultz: 7.1 points (40.5% fg, 31.3% 3p), 3.1 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 0.9 steals, 0.3 blocks in 18.1 minutes
Smith Jr: 15.2 points (39.5% fg, 31.3% 3p), 3.8 rebounds, 5.2 assists, 1 steal, 0.3 blocks in 29.7 minutes
Jackson: 13.1 points (41.7% fg, 26.3% 3p), 4.6 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 1 steal, 0.5 blocks in 25.4 minutes

I need BPM, RPM, PIPM, etc. because raw stats aren't doin it these days.
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defense
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:25 pm    Post subject: Re: BR: Re-Drafting 2017 NBA Draft (Ball #4, Kuzma #9, Hart #20)

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
Am I the only guy who thinks Jason Tatum is vastly overrated by people? Yes he contributed to a strong team but aside from his three point shooting (which is great) his numbers are solid but not overwhelming:

Tatum: 13.9 points (47.5% fg, 43.4% 3p), 5 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 1.0 steals, 0.7 blocks in 30.5 minutes.
Mitchell: 20.5 points (43.7% fg, 34% 3p), 3.7 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 1.5 steals, 0.3 blocks in 33.4 minutes
Ball: 10.2 points (36% fg, 30.5% 3p), 6.9 rebounds, 7.2 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.8 blocks in 34.2 minutes
Kuzma: 16.1 points (45% fg, 36.6% 3p), 6.3 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 0.6 steals, 0.4 blocks in 31.2 minutes
Fultz: 7.1 points (40.5% fg, 31.3% 3p), 3.1 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 0.9 steals, 0.3 blocks in 18.1 minutes
Smith Jr: 15.2 points (39.5% fg, 31.3% 3p), 3.8 rebounds, 5.2 assists, 1 steal, 0.3 blocks in 29.7 minutes
Jackson: 13.1 points (41.7% fg, 26.3% 3p), 4.6 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 1 steal, 0.5 blocks in 25.4 minutes

I need BPM, RPM, PIPM, etc. because raw stats aren't doin it these days.


RPM

Mitchell 2.28
Lonzo .96
Tatum 2.14

Jackson -3.82
Fultz -2.23
Smith Jr -2.82
Fox -4.37
Kuzma -1.58
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:28 pm    Post subject:

How's Jordan Bell ahead of Hart? Dude hasn't done crap since January and fell out the rotation
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defense
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:34 pm    Post subject:

BPM

Mitchell 1.1
Lonzo 1.7
Tatum 1.0

Jackson -4.3
Fultz -3.0
Smith Jr -2.3
Fox -4.4
Kuzma -1.3
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:48 pm    Post subject: Re: BR: Re-Drafting 2017 NBA Draft (Ball #4, Kuzma #9, Hart #20)

J.C. Smith wrote:
Am I the only guy who thinks Jason Tatum is vastly overrated by people?


Vastly overrated? I don't necessarily agree with that. Somewhat overrated though? Yes, I'll go there. I think its a combination of East Coast bias and playing (and playing relatively well) on a contending team.

Still, as a rookie, he's had essentially the same season as Ingram per 36, except for the assists (which, really, is what distinguishes Ingram from most comps). One might say that his shooting, in part, has to do with the depth Boston has as well as being on an experienced team. However, the guy still has to make the shots and his TS% is something like 59% (whereas Ingram's is only like 54%). Not bad for a rookie, which is why he does deserve some hype at least. That being said, should he be viewed as a better prospect than Ball or Ingram? No, I don't think so.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:50 pm    Post subject:

defense wrote:
BPM

Mitchell 1.1
Lonzo 1.7
Tatum 1.0

Jackson -4.3
Fultz -3.0
Smith Jr -2.3
Fox -4.4
Kuzma -1.3


So Lonzo was the best rookie defender and it's not very close is it?

Fix the thing you've always done well...get stronger...make your FTs...and he's the best of the bunch right?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:05 pm    Post subject:

CervantesRises wrote:
defense wrote:
BPM

Mitchell 1.1
Lonzo 1.7
Tatum 1.0

Jackson -4.3
Fultz -3.0
Smith Jr -2.3
Fox -4.4
Kuzma -1.3


So Lonzo was the best rookie defender and it's not very close is it?

Fix the thing you've always done well...get stronger...make your FTs...and he's the best of the bunch right?


Body, handles, shooting, mid range game, and finishing-- then he's the best. But that's an awful lot to fix in one year and this rookie class was historically great so we'll see. But if he was just making 2 more baskets (assuming one is a 3) a 4 free throws a game, he'd already be at 19/7/7.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:38 pm    Post subject:

2019 wrote:
CervantesRises wrote:
defense wrote:
BPM

Mitchell 1.1
Lonzo 1.7
Tatum 1.0

Jackson -4.3
Fultz -3.0
Smith Jr -2.3
Fox -4.4
Kuzma -1.3


So Lonzo was the best rookie defender and it's not very close is it?

Fix the thing you've always done well...get stronger...make your FTs...and he's the best of the bunch right?


Body, handles, shooting, mid range game, and finishing-- then he's the best. But that's an awful lot to fix in one year and this rookie class was historically great so we'll see. But if he was just making 2 more baskets (assuming one is a 3) a 4 free throws a game, he'd already be at 19/7/7.


For me it was his FTs...he hits those (like he and everyone else better start doing next year) and he stops avoiding contact. Do that and now his game reopens and he becomes a 14ppg player. Fix the confidence in his 3 ball like he had coming off the shoulder/knee injury (Spur game) and I'm sure he becomes a 17 to 19 ppg.

I think body has to get stronger absolutely. Handles for me are fine because his vision is insane so defenders have to respect that, mid-range game is year 3, finishing will improve as he gets stronger and stops avoiding contact because he's worried about FTs.

I think it's all connected for him and it comes down to FTs then 3 Ball...straighten that out and he's lethal.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:48 pm    Post subject:

Fultz in the top 5??? That's a joke!

In a re-draft you have to value the performance and not the talent he's shown in college.

What was Fultz' performance? Only 2 games where he showed glimpses of talent.

So in my re-draft he can never crack top 5


Lonzo 2/3

Kuzma 8

Hart anywhere between 12 and 16 (what makes Anunoby 8 spots better?)
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:49 pm    Post subject:

I could nitpick a little, bit it’s hard to disagree with for the most part.

Fultz should be below Tatum and Lonzo, but I can see why he’s still second. Its just such a weird situation with him — too early to tell, and probably better to give him the benefit of the doubt until it’s this time next year and he still won’t attempt a shot outside 10 feet. He looks fantastic otherwise.

Kuzma definitely outplayed a lot of guys ahead of him, but it’s a redraft, and the guys in front of him are all 2+ years younger than him, and showed things this year. I think he’ll probably end up having a better career than a few of the guys in front of him, but it’s easy to see why those guys still go ahead of him in a redraft.

I think Hart would be top 15 if he had a consistent role all year and didn’t break his hand. But he wouldn’t be higher than that for the same reasons Kuzma isn’t

All in all pretty fair IMO
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:01 am    Post subject: Re: BR: Re-Drafting 2017 NBA Draft (Ball #4, Kuzma #9, Hart #20)

defense wrote:

Mitchell 2.28
Lonzo .96
Tatum 2.14

Jackson -3.82
Fultz -2.23
Smith Jr -2.82
Fox -4.37
Kuzma -1.58


RPM depends on so many factors on a team. It isn't really a stat to compare players with on its own.

RPM Leaders League Wide:

#1: Chris Paul 6.81 (I love Paul but he's not the best player in the league at this point)
#4: Jimmy Butler 6.06 (All-Star no doubt, but #4?)
#5: Nikola Jokic 5.95 (Another good player, but #5?)
#6: Robert Covington: 5.87 (No text required)
#8: Anthony Davis 5.49
#11: Otto Porter Jr. 5.05 (yes, 14.7/6.4/2 Otto Porter, same guy)
#14: Tyus Jones 4.88 (5.1 points/2.8/1.6 Tyus Jones who played 17.9 minutes per game)
#15: Lebron James 4.72
#16: Greek Freak 4.42
#17: Karl-Anthony Towns 4.27
#18: Demarcus Cousins 3.93
#20: Al Horford 3.82
#22: Fred VanVleet 3.68 (8.6 points, 2.4 rebounds, 3.2 assists in 20 minutes)
#25: Lemarcus Aldridge 3.36
#26: Kelly Olynyk 3.3 (11.5/5.7/2.7 in 23.4 minutes)
#27: Ben Simmons 3.24
#30: Joe Ingles 3.06 (11.5/4.8/4.2 in 31.5 minutes)
#31: David West 2.98 (6.8/3.3/1.9 in 13.7 minutes)
#32: Kyle Anderson 2.96 (7.9/5.4/2.7 in 26.7 minutes)
#33: Larry Nance Jr 2.9
#34: Paul George 2.87
#35: Kevin Durant 2.86
#43: Kyrie Irving 2.36
#47: Demar Derozan 2.28
#51: Blake Griffin 2.25
#72: Klay Thompson 1.71

It should be noted that Lonzo led the Lakers in RPM. KCP #2, Randle #3, Lopez #4.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:01 am    Post subject:

Still wouldn't take Fultz over Ball. It seems fair to have Ball at #3 behind Mitchell and Tatum.

If Fultz can be judged on so few games, then Hart ending the season averaging 24 a game should have boosted him more.

Kuzma should be above Lauri. There's a reason only one of those guys was constantly in conversation with Donovan Mitchell regarding scoring prowess.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:35 am    Post subject:

Quote:
The Los Angeles Lakers couldn't get him last June, but they'll have their chance in the re-draft. Still 19 years old until May, Fultz could give the Lakers both scoring firepower and playmaking, while Lonzo Ball will mostly only bring the latter.


Not even mentioning ZO's defense lol. Great analysis.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:07 am    Post subject:

saetarubia wrote:
Quote:
The Los Angeles Lakers couldn't get him last June, but they'll have their chance in the re-draft. Still 19 years old until May, Fultz could give the Lakers both scoring firepower and playmaking, while Lonzo Ball will mostly only bring the latter.


Not even mentioning ZO's defense lol. Great analysis.



Well, I think the bigger issue is that Fultz has been out for a good part of the season, so he's in there as a "we shall see" guy. But from what I've seen, he looks good. Is that going to be great or good? Don't know because Simmons has that star potential shining around him at this point.

Mitchell & Tatum are hungry and you can tell on the court. Though Tatum lets the game come to him a lot he can get in attack mode quickly. Mitchell?, the guy is on a mission and he has the speed and the talent. Both those guys look like future all stars from what I've seen.

Zo? he's a mixed bag. He has good D and passing but can't hit the side of a barn while looking hungry on occasion. Right now Zo looks like a Key Contributor type of player compared to the top two; IMO. Every team needs Key Contributors, so that's a good thing. The problem the Lakers have is that we seem to have to many Key Contributors and no real stars for now.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:18 am    Post subject:

I'm still trying to figure out why people keep putting Tatum over Kuz? Its like Tatum got all of this hype early and people kept running with it. Kuz outplayed him both times this year and had a better statistical year.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:41 am    Post subject:

Harlemlakerfan wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out why people keep putting Tatum over Kuz? Its like Tatum got all of this hype early and people kept running with it. Kuz outplayed him both times this year and had a better statistical year.


Yep, this is purely cause Kuz was a late first pick, it's the only reason this is even a debate, f he were picked at 5 or 6 he would be #2 on the redraft
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:51 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Not bad, average of 8.7 spots above where picked.

So who gets the credit, Ryan West?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:07 am    Post subject:

I wouldn't put much stock into these things. Take them for what it is. Players in years 1 to 2 make such different strides.
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