Positionless basketball?
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LuciusAllen
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:42 pm    Post subject:

VicXLakers wrote:
centers will become extinct in my lifetime...on the endangered list now .

Tall players won't go extinct.

The logic of having taller players set up closer to the rim won't go extinct.

So I don't think the center position will go extinct.

However ... IF the dimensions of the court are greatly expanded, and the dimensions of the paint increase as well, then maybe we can revisit the discussion.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:09 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Imo, the idea of positionless basketball is that, with the right players, it can be done in spurts. That’s it.

Instead, fans pretty much use it as a go to response whenever they want to fulfill an acquisition fantasy that results in too many players at the same position.

And thats how it became a thing.


Strongly disagree.

The whole point of a "small lineup" is to have the most skills on the floor at both ends of the floor. The original idea is that when a team goes small and gets killed in the paint, having other guards with quickness to double team and recover can make up for that.

But we're at the NBA level. We have guards that can defend 1-4 (Hart), PGs that can defend 1/2, and wings that can defend 1-3, with Randle defending 1,5. Doubles aren't required as much, so they definitely hold their own. The difference? Having a center that can grab and go and make decisions in transition to finish or pass. Have triple threat guards at 3 different slots for gravity, off ball cutting, speed, and pace.

I think people really overrate the idea of "small ball." It's not "small ball" when Anthony Davis plays like a wing player but sets screens in PnR. It would be no different if it was LeBron James or PG13 setting those screens either.

It's also assumed that the most skilled guys, usually guards, make the best decisions in breaking down the defense.

It's certainly no gimmick when it's Simmons, Redick, Covington, Saric, Embiid. Not small, but all of the skills are there with shooting, passing, ball-handling, AND they hold their own on defense.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:16 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Imo, the idea of positionless basketball is that, with the right players, it can be done in spurts. That’s it.

Instead, fans pretty much use it as a go to response whenever they want to fulfill an acquisition fantasy that results in too many players at the same position.

And thats how it became a thing.


Strongly disagree.

The whole point of a "small lineup" is to have the most skills on the floor at both ends of the floor. The original idea is that when a team goes small and gets killed in the paint, having other guards with quickness to double team and recover can make up for that.

But we're at the NBA level. We have guards that can defend 1-4 (Hart), PGs that can defend 1/2, and wings that can defend 1-3, with Randle defending 1,5. Doubles aren't required as much, so they definitely hold their own. The difference? Having a center that can grab and go and make decisions in transition to finish or pass. Have triple threat guards at 3 different slots for gravity, off ball cutting, speed, and pace.

I think people really overrate the idea of "small ball." It's not "small ball" when Anthony Davis plays like a wing player but sets screens in PnR. It would be no different if it was LeBron James or PG13 setting those screens either.

It's also assumed that the most skilled guys, usually guards, make the best decisions in breaking down the defense.

It's certainly no gimmick when it's Simmons, Redick, Covington, Saric, Embiid. Not small, but all of the skills are there with shooting, passing, ball-handling, AND they hold their own on defense.


Nice post i agree, however I do think that the "definition" or "requirements" of positions has changed, especially with the PG and C positions.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:16 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Imo, the idea of positionless basketball is that, with the right players, it can be done in spurts. That’s it.

Instead, fans pretty much use it as a go to response whenever they want to fulfill an acquisition fantasy that results in too many players at the same position.

And thats how it became a thing.

What? So the concept of position-less basketball originates from fans? Umm, what?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:17 am    Post subject:

Quote:


Nice post i agree, however I do think that the "definition" or "requirements" of positions has changed, especially with the PG and C positions.


In the most ideal of situations, all 5 guys are playmakers, not just 1 default PG necessarily. Sure, you may run a "wing" through a bigman action, like setting a screen in PnR and being a dive man or even posting up, but let's say you've got a wing as the screener and he does a short roll; you've essentially got a good decision maker, at the 15' to 20' mark, usually with no backline defense (ideal PnR situations would have shooters at both corners for spacing), and that short roll person can feast.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:35 am    Post subject:

The game is changing - a s a kid in the 70's a team had either a great PF or a C; one was the scorer, and the other was the defender, enforcer, etc. SF could be 6' 5", and now they are anywhere from 6' 8" to seven feet.

Personally, I like seeing the more wide open games, 110-105, 128-115 or whatever, much better than the slow down iso-ball 90 point games, but maybe that's just me.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:08 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Imo, the idea of positionless basketball is that, with the right players, it can be done in spurts. That’s it.

Instead, fans pretty much use it as a go to response whenever they want to fulfill an acquisition fantasy that results in too many players at the same position.

And thats how it became a thing.


Strongly disagree.

The whole point of a "small lineup" is to have the most skills on the floor at both ends of the floor. The original idea is that when a team goes small and gets killed in the paint, having other guards with quickness to double team and recover can make up for that.

But we're at the NBA level. We have guards that can defend 1-4 (Hart), PGs that can defend 1/2, and wings that can defend 1-3, with Randle defending 1,5. Doubles aren't required as much, so they definitely hold their own. The difference? Having a center that can grab and go and make decisions in transition to finish or pass. Have triple threat guards at 3 different slots for gravity, off ball cutting, speed, and pace.

I think people really overrate the idea of "small ball." It's not "small ball" when Anthony Davis plays like a wing player but sets screens in PnR. It would be no different if it was LeBron James or PG13 setting those screens either.

It's also assumed that the most skilled guys, usually guards, make the best decisions in breaking down the defense.

It's certainly no gimmick when it's Simmons, Redick, Covington, Saric, Embiid. Not small, but all of the skills are there with shooting, passing, ball-handling, AND they hold their own on defense.


I think that's fair. But even in the Philly scenario, there's only one position that is really unconventional.

I do agree that in large part, the point of positionless basketball, is that the skill sets you put out on the court, aren't reserved for specific roles. So, a forward could be your primary playmaker, or, your center could be a floor spreader. As you said, defensively, everyone is switching.

I guess what I was getting at, is there is this new and odd idea, promulgated mainly by fans IMO, that you can just throw any 5 guys together because of "positionless" basketball. When people discuss why a particular unit may not work in their opinion, the response is just, positionless basketball. I think it's a lot deeper than that.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:10 am    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Imo, the idea of positionless basketball is that, with the right players, it can be done in spurts. That’s it.

Instead, fans pretty much use it as a go to response whenever they want to fulfill an acquisition fantasy that results in too many players at the same position.

And thats how it became a thing.

What? So the concept of position-less basketball originates from fans? Umm, what?


Sorry, no, that's not what I meant. I meant, this new bastardized version is used by fans to justify cobbling their 5 favorite players together.

That concept, such as, Hart at the 3 for instance, can be done, but in spurts or in specific scenarios, but not in any sort of effective, consistent, or long-term strategy.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:10 am    Post subject:

Quote:

I guess what I was getting at, is there is this new and odd idea, promulgated mainly by fans IMO, that you can just throw any 5 guys together because of "positionless" basketball. When people discuss why a particular unit may not work in their opinion, the response is just, positionless basketball. I think it's a lot deeper than that.


I kind of think Magic Johnson invented it. It's just been more of a recent trend with more playmakers 6'5" and taller that can defend multiple positions on defense.

It's definitely a lot deeper than that.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:26 pm    Post subject:

It is easy to change ball-handling from a guard to a wing, but you still need size next to basket.
Small ball will last only until the next O'Neal/Chamberlain/Olajuwon will enter the league.
Good luck trying guarding him with the likes of Green/Randle.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:08 am    Post subject:

Shaber wrote:
It is easy to change ball-handling from a guard to a wing, but you still need size next to basket.
Small ball will last only until the next O'Neal/Chamberlain/Olajuwon will enter the league.
Good luck trying guarding him with the likes of Green/Randle.



This!


If You have a quality 7 footer that can score and defend really good, you don't want to play a 6 ft 7 Green at Center

The lack of quality bigs and quality point guards led to positionless basketball / small ball
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:52 am    Post subject:

matigol wrote:
Shaber wrote:
It is easy to change ball-handling from a guard to a wing, but you still need size next to basket.
Small ball will last only until the next O'Neal/Chamberlain/Olajuwon will enter the league.
Good luck trying guarding him with the likes of Green/Randle.



This!


If You have a quality 7 footer that can score and defend really good, you don't want to play a 6 ft 7 Green at Center

The lack of quality bigs and quality point guards led to positionless basketball / small ball


Lack of quality point guards? We have Curry, Westbrook, CP3, Lillard, Wall, Walker, Irving, Conley, Lowry, Dragic, Thomas, Bledsoe, Teague, Rubio, not to mention the new generation: Simmons, Lonzo, DSJ, Russell, Schroeder, ...

If there's a position not lacking talent in the League, it's PG.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject:

watchME wrote:
What people are not understanding is that if we start lebron at C there is no coach in the NBA who would put their regular center on him. They will be forced to start guys like draymond etc who are small ball centers.


I would love to trade everyone except kuz and ingram and get this team together

Ingram
PG13
kawhi
kuz
lebron

everyone has to guard the center
Philly says Hi.

Embid will be on bron. but Embid wont guard brown on the perimeter. you setup a semi zone defense. and dare him to take long range jumpers. the moment he comes towards the paint thats when you pick him up. he will never attempt to post up on embid. and embid will kill bron on the block.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:08 pm    Post subject:

Eindhoven wrote:
matigol wrote:
Shaber wrote:
It is easy to change ball-handling from a guard to a wing, but you still need size next to basket.
Small ball will last only until the next O'Neal/Chamberlain/Olajuwon will enter the league.
Good luck trying guarding him with the likes of Green/Randle.



This!


If You have a quality 7 footer that can score and defend really good, you don't want to play a 6 ft 7 Green at Center

The lack of quality bigs and quality point guards led to positionless basketball / small ball


Lack of quality point guards? We have Curry, Westbrook, CP3, Lillard, Wall, Walker, Irving, Conley, Lowry, Dragic, Thomas, Bledsoe, Teague, Rubio, not to mention the new generation: Simmons, Lonzo, DSJ, Russell, Schroeder, ...

If there's a position not lacking talent in the League, it's PG.

those are mostly guys who are great at scoring and pretty good at passing. some are excellent at passing like cp3 and wall.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:17 pm    Post subject:

Shaber wrote:
It is easy to change ball-handling from a guard to a wing, but you still need size next to basket.
Small ball will last only until the next O'Neal/Chamberlain/Olajuwon will enter the league.
Good luck trying guarding him with the likes of Green/Randle.


And they'll still be going by 2, while "small ball" GSW lineups will be going by 3.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:19 pm    Post subject:

splashmtn wrote:
watchME wrote:
What people are not understanding is that if we start lebron at C there is no coach in the NBA who would put their regular center on him. They will be forced to start guys like draymond etc who are small ball centers.


I would love to trade everyone except kuz and ingram and get this team together

Ingram
PG13
kawhi
kuz
lebron

everyone has to guard the center
Philly says Hi.

Embid will be on bron. but Embid wont guard brown on the perimeter. you setup a semi zone defense. and dare him to take long range jumpers. the moment he comes towards the paint thats when you pick him up. he will never attempt to post up on embid. and embid will kill bron on the block.


In isolation. Why is it assumed that LeBron wouldn't get help against Embiid?

In reverse, why is it assumed that Embiid wouldn't get help defending LeBron? It'll be a high post attack, face up, triple threat position, then Embiid is on his heels.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:20 pm    Post subject:

splashmtn wrote:
Eindhoven wrote:
matigol wrote:
Shaber wrote:
It is easy to change ball-handling from a guard to a wing, but you still need size next to basket.
Small ball will last only until the next O'Neal/Chamberlain/Olajuwon will enter the league.
Good luck trying guarding him with the likes of Green/Randle.



This!


If You have a quality 7 footer that can score and defend really good, you don't want to play a 6 ft 7 Green at Center

The lack of quality bigs and quality point guards led to positionless basketball / small ball


Lack of quality point guards? We have Curry, Westbrook, CP3, Lillard, Wall, Walker, Irving, Conley, Lowry, Dragic, Thomas, Bledsoe, Teague, Rubio, not to mention the new generation: Simmons, Lonzo, DSJ, Russell, Schroeder, ...

If there's a position not lacking talent in the League, it's PG.

those are mostly guys who are great at scoring and pretty good at passing. some are excellent at passing like cp3 and wall.


They're still high quality PGs. Every year there's a PG or two that gets snubbed because there's too much depth at that position.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:35 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Shaber wrote:
It is easy to change ball-handling from a guard to a wing, but you still need size next to basket.
Small ball will last only until the next O'Neal/Chamberlain/Olajuwon will enter the league.
Good luck trying guarding him with the likes of Green/Randle.


And they'll still be going by 2, while "small ball" GSW lineups will be going by 3.


This has been tried before. It is quite possible to guard against. IMHO three-ball is the easiest to take away. You just have to counter the penetrations that you give away with that. After that you are both going by 2, as you say.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:51 am    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
scoobs wrote:
As of right now, I think Randle might be our starting center, or at least playt a lot of center minutes. Rim protection is still important, but with all the perimeter play, a center like Randle that could step out there and defend is a great asset.


When motivated, no guard not named Kyrie or Steph is gonna get around Randle. And definitely not Wall.


That's a nobly loyal assertion, hardly accurate.

Westbrook gets around - or over - any guy he wants. Harden can get past anyone. There are many elite small ball-handling guards and wings who will often give Randle far more than he can handle. That includes Jrue Holiday, Damian Lillard, and Goran Dragic and others, as well as many wings with elite shoot-drive guard skills such as Kawhi, LeBron, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler.

Randle is showing great promise in space as an on-ball defender, but he can be beaten by many, many smaller or quicker or more agile scorers.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:49 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Imo, the idea of positionless basketball is that, with the right players, it can be done in spurts. That’s it.

Instead, fans pretty much use it as a go to response whenever they want to fulfill an acquisition fantasy that results in too many players at the same position.

And thats how it became a thing.


Strongly disagree.

The whole point of a "small lineup" is to have the most skills on the floor at both ends of the floor. The original idea is that when a team goes small and gets killed in the paint, having other guards with quickness to double team and recover can make up for that.

But we're at the NBA level. We have guards that can defend 1-4 (Hart), PGs that can defend 1/2, and wings that can defend 1-3, with Randle defending 1,5. Doubles aren't required as much, so they definitely hold their own. The difference? Having a center that can grab and go and make decisions in transition to finish or pass. Have triple threat guards at 3 different slots for gravity, off ball cutting, speed, and pace.

I think people really overrate the idea of "small ball." It's not "small ball" when Anthony Davis plays like a wing player but sets screens in PnR. It would be no different if it was LeBron James or PG13 setting those screens either.

It's also assumed that the most skilled guys, usually guards, make the best decisions in breaking down the defense.

It's certainly no gimmick when it's Simmons, Redick, Covington, Saric, Embiid. Not small, but all of the skills are there with shooting, passing, ball-handling, AND they hold their own on defense.
i agree with everything you just said but again mike. you said we have guards that can defend 1- 4. The only reason a guard can defend a PF is if said PF aint that good on the block.

The only reason randle even has a chance at Center is because he's most nights going up against guys that are not lights out on the block. if they were he would be ...BBQ chicken.

lets do this.

Randle playing center vs Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Rik Smits, Prime Yao Ming, Shaq(any version that wasnt old), Hakeem.

hart can guard 1-4 in todays nba because the 4 is a Small forward half the time. and the other times its a stretch (soft) big.

Imagine JOsh hart who we both love trying to guard Prime Chuck, Prime Cwebb, shoot, he couldnt guard Prime Juwan howard, He couldnt guard Prime Derick coleman, he couldnt guard prime KG, Prime Horace grant would give hart that work Mike. Kevin mchale guarded by hart. imagine hart standing behind prime timmy D..good night.

one of the biggest reasons this style of play works because the skill at those big positions is not what it once was. a certain skill. a skill to destroy your man on the block if need be.

as big/strong/athletic as bron is. He couldnt bother Chris Webber or Prime Tim duncan on the block. there's a reason bron use to cry about not wanting to play PF even though he's the size of one. he wants no parts of the banging especially not vs guys that are excellent at that low post game.

then to boot you have kids growing up no matter how tall or big they are wanting to dribble like a guard and shoot like ray allen. they for the most part are not thinking about and are not being taught the art of the low post.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:39 pm    Post subject:

Shaber wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Shaber wrote:
It is easy to change ball-handling from a guard to a wing, but you still need size next to basket.
Small ball will last only until the next O'Neal/Chamberlain/Olajuwon will enter the league.
Good luck trying guarding him with the likes of Green/Randle.


And they'll still be going by 2, while "small ball" GSW lineups will be going by 3.


This has been tried before. It is quite possible to guard against. IMHO three-ball is the easiest to take away. You just have to counter the penetrations that you give away with that. After that you are both going by 2, as you say.


I disagree that the 3ball is easiest to take away.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:42 pm    Post subject:

Quote:

Randle playing center vs Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Rik Smits, Prime Yao Ming, Shaq(any version that wasnt old), Hakeem.


Why do I have to "imagine this"?

Honestly, the reason why 3-point shooting took so long to come around was because the idea of 3-point shooting lasting well into the fourth quarter didn't stick.

Well, it's 2018. We've got dudes that shoot 6-10 3pt attempts per game at a very accurate rate.

Go ahead and run your 80s and 90s All Star Centers if you'd like. You'd think DeAndre Ayton would be the unanimous #1 pick with that mentality. Well, he isn't. Neither is JJJ, Bagley, Carter, Bamba. But the 6'8" PG from Europe that isn't even a 40% 3pt shooter, or the insane high volume PG from Oklahoma without much reach ... both guys arguable Top 5.

Why is that?

Better question.

Why do you think Anthony Davis is better at playing center than Giannis Antetokounmpo who obviously has the skills and athletic advantage over Al Horford?

The idea that is totally lost here, is the level of athleticism and PG play of the modern NBA and how they absolutely burn centers on switches. When was the last time you saw Ewing do a close out on a 3-point shot? Or any elite 90s center?

We even sat Shaq in the background to give up middies to so many elite PGs, except now the offense has the screen set higher for better spacing and a more open 3-point shot.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:57 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Embiid
AD
KAT
Jokic

I think the center position is just fine for the next 10 years.


Yep. Plodding oafish cetners that can only "post up" are extinct. Their skill sets have expanded so far it's nuts. Kevin Durant by all reports is a legit 7 foot tall.

This play still blows my mind. There are 6 foot guards without the ability to do this:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:25 pm    Post subject:

"Positionless" goes the other way too, so not only do we have taller guys with guard skills, but smaller guys with postup skills ala MJ/Kobe/DeRozan. To me, the term is really about versatility. There are still well-defined roles within the offense, but bigger guys like Randle/Odom can do the same things that traditionally only smaller guys were responsible for. That's where the mismatches and advantages occur.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:30 am    Post subject:

Centers won't go extinct because small ball has quickly turned into length ball and bigs have already started to adapt like Joel Embiid.

Small ball was the idea of having as many guys being able to handle the ball, push the pace, shoot from everywhere. The best way to be the best small ball team is to have lengthier players that can do all those things.

Part of the reason I'm so high on Zo (6'6), Ingram (6'9) and Kuzma (6'9). Point Guards are already taller/bigger then they've ever been.

Guard
Guard/Forward
Forward
Forward
Athletic Big

I think there's going to be no such thing as a true Power Forward sooner then later. But I think a "Center" will always be around.

There's still positions, just a different format now. This is why I think our team can become a powerhouse without making trades even though there might not be a generational talent looking type player yet.

2010 OKC> 2010 Warriors. OKC emphasized their talent while Warriors created an infrastructure, which is what we're doing.
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