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BynumForThree
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Joined: 27 Feb 2016
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 Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:51 am Post subject: |
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Depends how much value you place in team accomplishments. Statistically, both raw and advanced statistics favor Lebron. In fact, it's almost an insult to compare Kobe to Lebron in that regard. Lebron, Jordan, Shaq and Curry (and Harden and Durant to a certain extent) are all in a tier of their own in the modern era when you look at what they did on the court. Kobe never reached those levels. But he played on the best teams in the league the majority of his career and he won a lot, so legacy-wise he's right there with Lebron. In terms of on-court production? lolno
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JUST-MING
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:09 am Post subject: |
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This is obvious, the media.
Lebron has avoided any real criticism his entire career because of it. |
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panamaniac
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Joined: 28 May 2011
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Treble Clef wrote: | | leor_77 wrote: | | From a Kobe/Lakers hater, that is quite surprising. |
Well he's a big LeBron hater too. I don't think there is any player he likes. |
He's also an MJ lover... so there are serious conflicts of interest in play. |
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greenfrog
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Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| The Grind wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | | leor_77 wrote: | | From a Kobe/Lakers hater, that is quite surprising. |
Well he's a big LeBron hater too. I don't think there is any player he likes. |
He's also an MJ lover... so there are serious conflicts of interest in play. |
They're not friends anymore, according to him.
Last edited by greenfrog on Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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RestEasyBlackMamba
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Joined: 24 May 2015
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Kobe’s most dominant years were spent on crap teams. Lebron gets credit for single handidly taking his team to the playoffs. Kobe never gets that credit. He took a team with Minh at C, LO and Luke at the forwards and smush p was his pg to the playoffs and almost upset the suns. Lebron made sure his dominant years were gonna be spent with as much talent around him as possible. And it’s not his fault but Kobe will forever be punished for playing with shaq. Meaning he’ll never get full credit for all his accolades. He might not be a media darling but most players, ones that played against him and before him, put Kobe in the goat convo. |
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KindCrippler2000
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | | Depends how much value you place in team accomplishments. Statistically, both raw and advanced statistics favor Lebron. In fact, it's almost an insult to compare Kobe to Lebron in that regard. Lebron, Jordan, Shaq and Curry (and Harden and Durant to a certain extent) are all in a tier of their own in the modern era when you look at what they did on the court. Kobe never reached those levels. But he played on the best teams in the league the majority of his career and he won a lot, so legacy-wise he's right there with Lebron. In terms of on-court production? lolno |
I'm not putting Kobe over Lebron on any all-time list, but when I learned about Lebron's stat padding antics (e.g telling teammates to shoot when he passes to them or to clear the lane for rebounds), it sort of delegitimatized some of the metrics to me. I recall Durant even saying they were cautious of taking end of the quarter shots or half-court heaves because it would have an adverse effect on some of the metrics. The thing with Kobe is he didn't give a damn about any of that. He never had that in the back of his mind and put winning above all of it. I respect that.
As far as playing on the best teams: Lebron is the progenitor of the superteam era. He made Durant's decision to join the Warriors very easy: https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kevin-durant-says-lebron-paved-the-way-for-his-decision-to-sign-with-warriors/ |
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Batguano
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2260
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | Depends how much value you place in team accomplishments. Statistically, both raw and advanced statistics favor Lebron. In fact, it's almost an insult to compare Kobe to Lebron in that regard. Lebron, Jordan, Shaq and Curry (and Harden and Durant to a certain extent) are all in a tier of their own in the modern era when you look at what they did on the court. Kobe never reached those levels. But he played on the best teams in the league the majority of his career and he won a lot, so legacy-wise he's right there with Lebron. In terms of on-court production? lolno |
I'm not putting Kobe over Lebron on any all-time list, but when I learned about Lebron's stat padding antics (e.g telling teammates to shoot when he passes to them or to clear the lane for rebounds), it sort of delegitimatized some of the metrics to me. I recall Durant even saying they were cautious of taking end of the quarter shots or half-court heaves because it would have an adverse effect on some of the metrics. The thing with Kobe is he didn't give a damn about any of that. He never had that in the back of his mind and put winning above all of it. I respect that.
As far as playing on the best teams: Lebron is the progenitor of the superteam era. He made Durant's decision to join the Warriors very easy: https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kevin-durant-says-lebron-paved-the-way-for-his-decision-to-sign-with-warriors/ |
Forget about LeBron.
This dude just literally said that Kobe has never reached Curry, Harden or Durant's level.  |
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slavavov
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Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 8352
Location: Santa Monica
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Lebron is a better rebounder and passer.
Kobe is a better scorer, defender, clutch player and competitor.
When people say that all the stats favor Lebron, it's misleading. His shooting %, rebounding and assists are higher. Both of them average about 27 ppg as a starter. But Kobe has gone on streaks that only Wilt, and to a lesser extent Jordan have gone on.
When people say Lebron is top 2 or 3 of all time, my question is why? Did they analyze and come to that conclusion on their own, or do they think that just because the MSM said it?
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Last edited by slavavov on Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Its almost as if this hasnt been rehashed a hundred times already. |
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BynumForThree
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Joined: 27 Feb 2016
Posts: 1254
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | Depends how much value you place in team accomplishments. Statistically, both raw and advanced statistics favor Lebron. In fact, it's almost an insult to compare Kobe to Lebron in that regard. Lebron, Jordan, Shaq and Curry (and Harden and Durant to a certain extent) are all in a tier of their own in the modern era when you look at what they did on the court. Kobe never reached those levels. But he played on the best teams in the league the majority of his career and he won a lot, so legacy-wise he's right there with Lebron. In terms of on-court production? lolno |
I'm not putting Kobe over Lebron on any all-time list, but when I learned about Lebron's stat padding antics (e.g telling teammates to shoot when he passes to them or to clear the lane for rebounds), it sort of delegitimatized some of the metrics to me. I recall Durant even saying they were cautious of taking end of the quarter shots or half-court heaves because it would have an adverse effect on some of the metrics. The thing with Kobe is he didn't give a damn about any of that. He never had that in the back of his mind and put winning above all of it. I respect that.
As far as playing on the best teams: Lebron is the progenitor of the superteam era. He made Durant's decision to join the Warriors very easy: https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kevin-durant-says-lebron-paved-the-way-for-his-decision-to-sign-with-warriors/ |
Forget about LeBron.
This dude just literally said that Kobe has never reached Curry, Harden or Durant's level. |
In terms of on court production? No, Kobe doesn't belong on their levels. You can pull up their metrics, it's a losing argument.
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If Brandon Knight were to come out, I would take him number 1 in the draft. - Magic Johnson Mar 27, 2011
For all of you out there questioning Jimmer Fredette of BYU, he is the real deal. - Magic Johnson Mar 20, 2011 |
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slavavov
Star Player
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 8352
Location: Santa Monica
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | Depends how much value you place in team accomplishments. Statistically, both raw and advanced statistics favor Lebron. In fact, it's almost an insult to compare Kobe to Lebron in that regard. Lebron, Jordan, Shaq and Curry (and Harden and Durant to a certain extent) are all in a tier of their own in the modern era when you look at what they did on the court. Kobe never reached those levels. But he played on the best teams in the league the majority of his career and he won a lot, so legacy-wise he's right there with Lebron. In terms of on-court production? lolno |
I'm not putting Kobe over Lebron on any all-time list, but when I learned about Lebron's stat padding antics (e.g telling teammates to shoot when he passes to them or to clear the lane for rebounds), it sort of delegitimatized some of the metrics to me. I recall Durant even saying they were cautious of taking end of the quarter shots or half-court heaves because it would have an adverse effect on some of the metrics. The thing with Kobe is he didn't give a damn about any of that. He never had that in the back of his mind and put winning above all of it. I respect that.
As far as playing on the best teams: Lebron is the progenitor of the superteam era. He made Durant's decision to join the Warriors very easy: https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kevin-durant-says-lebron-paved-the-way-for-his-decision-to-sign-with-warriors/ |
Forget about LeBron.
This dude just literally said that Kobe has never reached Curry, Harden or Durant's level. |
In terms of on court production? No, Kobe doesn't belong on their levels. You can pull up their metrics, it's a losing argument. |
Those guys may have higher averages and shooting %s than Kobe, but Kobe went on insane hot streaks that almost anyone else who's ever played the game can only dream of. Plus, Kobe was a better and more consistent big stage performer than Curry, Harden or Durant. You can't just look at stats on the surface.
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Batguano
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2260
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | Depends how much value you place in team accomplishments. Statistically, both raw and advanced statistics favor Lebron. In fact, it's almost an insult to compare Kobe to Lebron in that regard. Lebron, Jordan, Shaq and Curry (and Harden and Durant to a certain extent) are all in a tier of their own in the modern era when you look at what they did on the court. Kobe never reached those levels. But he played on the best teams in the league the majority of his career and he won a lot, so legacy-wise he's right there with Lebron. In terms of on-court production? lolno |
I'm not putting Kobe over Lebron on any all-time list, but when I learned about Lebron's stat padding antics (e.g telling teammates to shoot when he passes to them or to clear the lane for rebounds), it sort of delegitimatized some of the metrics to me. I recall Durant even saying they were cautious of taking end of the quarter shots or half-court heaves because it would have an adverse effect on some of the metrics. The thing with Kobe is he didn't give a damn about any of that. He never had that in the back of his mind and put winning above all of it. I respect that.
As far as playing on the best teams: Lebron is the progenitor of the superteam era. He made Durant's decision to join the Warriors very easy: https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kevin-durant-says-lebron-paved-the-way-for-his-decision-to-sign-with-warriors/ |
Forget about LeBron.
This dude just literally said that Kobe has never reached Curry, Harden or Durant's level. |
In terms of on court production? No, Kobe doesn't belong on their levels. You can pull up their metrics, it's a losing argument. |
1) @ comparing stats across different eras with different rules, different physicality and different pace of play. Funny how you analytics dudes are always so "schooled" on advanced stats yet you (conveniently/purposefully) ignore the stats and facts that indicate you can't really compare stats across different eras.
2) Kobe is a superior defensive player than Curry, Harden, and Durant (only Durant of that bunch has just recently started playing elite defense, while Kobe was elite since his early 20's).
3) Both Curry and Harden have a history of underperforming in the playoffs (where Kobe has thrived) as compared to their historic regular seasons.
But hey, keep crunching those excel spreadsheets.  |
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hydrohead
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Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 4112
Location: Space City
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I've always liked Charles Barkley. |
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Endless3D
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Joined: 03 Mar 2018
Posts: 794
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Kobe's my favorite player of all time, but he's not better then Lebron James IMO.
1. Micheal Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar/Lebron James
3. Lebron James/ Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Shaquille O Neal
7. Hakeem Olajuwon/Kobe Bryant
8. Kobe Bryant/ Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
I choose not to rank Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain cause it's impossible to correctly assess 50ppg and 11 rings because it wouldn't happen at any other time. I also think Bill Russell and Hakeem Olajuwon are not nearly as good as people make them out to be. Most places outside of hopefully LG thinks Kobe and Hakeem isn't even debatable. |
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trablos
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Joined: 10 May 2017
Posts: 3020
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Kobe is every bit the player MJ was, so why is it considered blasphemy for some to put him 1/2/3? |
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xxsicrokerxx
Star Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2011
Posts: 2205
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Unfortunately, Lebron is inching closer and closer every day to being better than Kobe. I honestly believe he will easily surpass Kobe. I don't want him to but its hard to deny his greatness now-a-days. |
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Hammett
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Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 9453
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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Only thing that taints Lebron legacy is how bad the Eastern conference has been for at least 20 years now.
There's been challengers like Chicago Bulls Derrick Rose and Paul George's Pacers but Rose got injured and George bailed on Indiana.
Lebron can complete his saga if he comes out West and fights through a tough conference for once.
Look at all the epic series Kobe battled through against the powerhouses in the West over the years. What great series, rivalries, etc. did James' teams face?
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Wino
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Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 9674
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| 27 wrote: | | meh, people have LeBron over Jordan for God sakes. just have to respect peoples opinions while being comfortable with the fact that its just an opinion. |
just comfortable with the fact that they are wrong!!
Welcome to 2018 where social media and fake news has pretty much made everybody wrong.
A lot of younger people don't want to look past the end of their nose for the truth. They know NOTHING about history. Not any history of anything. It's amazing how happily ignorant many people are willing to be.
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SDLakersFan
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Joined: 01 Apr 2012
Posts: 2044
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:46 am Post subject: |
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People like this make me sick. He hated on Kobe his entire career. I still remember TNT did a special called “NBA 50 greatest: the next 50” and the panel all picked more recent players by position, Barkley didn’t even pick Kobe at guard (this is around 2006 remind you), he said Iverson was more deserving.
Now suddenly you want to undo the hate he spewed all those years? |
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LawyerShawn
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Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 1834
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:13 am Post subject: |
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Different skill sets.
LeBron uses his other-worldly athleticism and court vision to create.
Kobe used his elite footwork, hard work, and scoring aggressiveness to create for others.
Both come to the same result: wins and championships.
Kobe did it five times.
LeBron did it three.
For now, Kobe is still top 5 with LeBron top 10.
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MJST
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:46 am Post subject: |
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I'd put Kobe 3rd all time
behind Kareem and Jordan
Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time. He's top 3. After Kobe there's Magic, Larry, Duncan, Shaq, Wilt and then LeBron.
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Magic Johnson
5. Tim Duncan
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Wilt Chamberlain
9. LeBron James
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
10-A. Bill Russell
If you don't have Tim Duncan (arguably the greatest PF of all time and 5 rings whom is also 2-1 vs LeBron in the Finals) in your top 5, what cha doin?
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ingle
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Posts: 960
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:10 am Post subject: |
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I find it absolutely blasphemous that on a Laker forum that there are people who actually rank Lebron ahead of Kobe. I mean wow, I hope everybody that did is a young fan who started following basketball in the last 10 years.
Lebron is an overpowering force of nature who only knows one way, Kobe on the other hand was a virtuoso that had mastered the game, it was pure artistry what he did. Chess vs checkers indeed.
I'm telling you, give Kobe the level of talent Lebron has played with - in the Eastern conference and he'll have a lot more than 3 rings. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:15 am Post subject: |
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Keep in mind, all it took for Kobe to take a 1st place losing team was one all-star(Pau Gasol) whom hadn't won a single playoff game without him prior.
And Kobe was able to take virtually the same team that was the 8th seed the previous two years to the NBA Finals in the West.
LeBron in the same situation would have probably had to FO try to find a way to get McGrady and would have had Odom shipped out.
The very team LeBron needed to form a Superteam to beat, was bested years earlier by Kobe and Gasol. It speaks volumes about what LeBron feels it takes for him to win and succeed and he will want to stack the deck as much as possible in his favor to avoid having to truly compete.
When he has 3 all-stars on his team and he screams "we need more" it's telling. Chuck was very right to call out LeBron for the antics.
Let's think about the role players LeBron has had this year alongside him and Kevin Love
He had Derrick Rose, Isaiah Thomas, Jeff Green, Kyle Korver, JR Smith, Tristan Thompson.
Then he lost Isaiah Thomas and Derrick Rose, and got Larry Nance Jr and Jordan Clarkson.
That alongside a 19/10 guy in Kevin Love whom is an all-star and carried the Timberwolves to 41-42 wins virtually by himself.
The numbers Kevin Love put up as a 3rd option.. are the numbers Gasol put up as a 2nd option, and LeBron didn't feel he needed enough with that.. AND Kyrie.
Different mentality altogether.
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ingle
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Posts: 960
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | Keep in mind, all it took for Kobe to take a 1st place losing team was one all-star(Pau Gasol) whom hadn't won a single playoff game without him prior.
And Kobe was able to take virtually the same team that was the 8th seed the previous two years to the NBA Finals in the West.
LeBron in the same situation would have probably had to FO try to find a way to get McGrady and would have had Odom shipped out.
The very team LeBron needed to form a Superteam to beat, was bested years earlier by Kobe and Gasol. It speaks volumes about what LeBron feels it takes for him to win and succeed and he will want to stack the deck as much as possible in his favor to avoid having to truly compete.
When he has 3 all-stars on his team and he screams "we need more" it's telling. Chuck was very right to call out LeBron for the antics.
Let's think about the role players LeBron has had this year alongside him and Kevin Love
He had Derrick Rose, Isaiah Thomas, Jeff Green, Kyle Korver, JR Smith, Tristan Thompson.
Then he lost Isaiah Thomas and Derrick Rose, and got Larry Nance Jr and Jordan Clarkson.
That alongside a 19/10 guy in Kevin Love whom is an all-star and carried the Timberwolves to 41-42 wins virtually by himself.
The numbers Kevin Love put up as a 3rd option.. are the numbers Gasol put up as a 2nd option, and LeBron didn't feel he needed enough with that.. AND Kyrie.
Different mentality altogether. |
I agree. Lebron's had a roster stacked enough to win the title, with the payroll to match ever since he moved to Miami. Kobe on the hand didn't have that luxury of a competitive roster in his prime years, Kobe made the most of what he had, other than 2004 our rosters always overachieved when compared to our talent level of paper
Just imagine Pau playing with Lebron, he'll be freezing out in the corner and coming down with panic attacks before the first season was done. |
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BynumForThree
Star Player
Joined: 27 Feb 2016
Posts: 1254
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | Depends how much value you place in team accomplishments. Statistically, both raw and advanced statistics favor Lebron. In fact, it's almost an insult to compare Kobe to Lebron in that regard. Lebron, Jordan, Shaq and Curry (and Harden and Durant to a certain extent) are all in a tier of their own in the modern era when you look at what they did on the court. Kobe never reached those levels. But he played on the best teams in the league the majority of his career and he won a lot, so legacy-wise he's right there with Lebron. In terms of on-court production? lolno |
I'm not putting Kobe over Lebron on any all-time list, but when I learned about Lebron's stat padding antics (e.g telling teammates to shoot when he passes to them or to clear the lane for rebounds), it sort of delegitimatized some of the metrics to me. I recall Durant even saying they were cautious of taking end of the quarter shots or half-court heaves because it would have an adverse effect on some of the metrics. The thing with Kobe is he didn't give a damn about any of that. He never had that in the back of his mind and put winning above all of it. I respect that.
As far as playing on the best teams: Lebron is the progenitor of the superteam era. He made Durant's decision to join the Warriors very easy: https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kevin-durant-says-lebron-paved-the-way-for-his-decision-to-sign-with-warriors/ |
Forget about LeBron.
This dude just literally said that Kobe has never reached Curry, Harden or Durant's level. |
In terms of on court production? No, Kobe doesn't belong on their levels. You can pull up their metrics, it's a losing argument. |
1) @ comparing stats across different eras with different rules, different physicality and different pace of play. Funny how you analytics dudes are always so "schooled" on advanced stats yet you (conveniently/purposefully) ignore the stats and facts that indicate you can't really compare stats across different eras.
Aside from Jordan, the other players played in the same NBA Kobe did. Lebron was outplaying Kobe while they were both playing in the same era. I'm curious what rules what so different between Kobe's prime and Durant's and Harden's. Hand checking and physicality? Kobe was around when these rule changes were made, in fact, he was one of the main beneficiaries of the rule changes.
2) Kobe is a superior defensive player than Curry, Harden, and Durant (only Durant of that bunch has just recently started playing elite defense, while Kobe was elite since his early 20's).
Kobe was an elite defender during his first title run and coasted off reparation after that. He wasn't an elite defender during his second title run although he was a good defender when he locked himself in. His defense wasn't good enough to mask the advantage that Harden, Curry and Durant have over him offensively.
3) Both Curry and Harden have a history of underperforming in the playoffs (where Kobe has thrived) as compared to their historic regular seasons.
This is some lazy parroting from the talking heads of ESPN. That is not true, Curry, Durant and Harden have all had great Playoff performances. Have they had some underwhelming series? Of course, but I also remember Kobe blowing a 3-1 lead against the Suns, Kobe blowing a 24 point lead and suffering the worst elimination game beatdown by the Celtics in the Finals, going 6 for 24 in the biggest game of his career (but muh rebounds) and embarrassing himself and his "superteam" by shooting the Lakers out of the 2004 Finals. However, he still had great Playoff success despite some blunders. And a lot of his blunders were masked because he played with great talent. Remember that Pau clutch putback against the Thunder in 2010? Or Artest's clutch putback against the Suns that same Playoff run? They were a result of Kobe missing critical shots at the end of Playoff games, nobody remembers them because his teammates picked up the slack.
But hey, keep crunching those excel spreadsheets.
I know this is a sensitive topic but Kobe isn't this basketball God. He's an all time great and a top 10 player of all time. His peak was just never in the Lebron/Jordan tier. However, you don't have to reach that level to be an all time great. Duncan never had a season like Shaq yet Duncan is still regarded as a top 10 player and the greatest PF ever. Kobe and Duncan were just consistent.
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If Brandon Knight were to come out, I would take him number 1 in the draft. - Magic Johnson Mar 27, 2011
For all of you out there questioning Jimmer Fredette of BYU, he is the real deal. - Magic Johnson Mar 20, 2011 |
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