Barkley: Why are people moving Lebron past Kobe?
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ContagiousInspiration
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 1:52 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
activeverb wrote:
george w kush wrote:


BTW I think it's hilarious people using Lebron leaving the Cavs the first time to go play with Wade is a bad thing. As if playing with Mo Williams as your second option was a better alternative? May I remind people Kobe requested a trade to the Bulls for the same reason because he felt management wasn't putting the right teammates around him. The Lakers lucked out in getting Gasol and drafting Bynum. Without these 2 guys, the team was a borderline playoff team and Kobe might have retired as a Bull instead of a Laker.



For some reason, a lot of fans think it's OK for a player to be lucky, but not smart. It's OK for Magic to be drafted onto a team that has Kareem and Wilkes; or for Bird to be drafted onto a team that surrounds him with Hall of Famers. But it's not OK for Durant or Lebron to use free agency to surround themselves with a comparable amount of talent.

Some of this is simply that fans tend to identify with owners, and they like the notion that players are as "loyal" to their teams as fans are, though I think most fans are accepting that's always been a fantasy Superstar movement is becoming so common that people will quickly stop thinking this is unusual or unfair, if they haven't already.

My personal view is that people will act in their own self-interest. If players stay with their current team, the only reason is it's good for them. If they leave, it's for the same reason. I don't think players really care what jersey they wear. There isn't anything ethical or moral about a player staying with or leaving his current team.


Agreed. Its the same thing with superteams. We’ll go to extreme lengths to argue why super teams that win rings dont count when we aren’t in position to produce one. But the moment we can, all those principals go out the window.

It’s not a huge deal, if people wouldnt pretend they are just being principaled. Same thing here. It’s having better player discussions under the guise of it being an objective discussion.


It is like you are working for a local multimedia advertising company and Apple calls you and says they have a position for you.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 6:24 pm    Post subject:

I see it a little differently, but we wind up the same place. Players want to win, and the greatest players hate losing more than they enjoy winning. Sir Alex Ferguson of Manchester United once said that he admired American athletes for this reason — they were just like him.

In addition, winning in general and winning titles in particular is one of the ways that we judge players. This is why Terry Bradshaw is a legend and Dan Marino is fading from memory. Players know this. They know that Karl Malone and Charles Barkley finished their great careers with a blemish.

So, in an era when players can move from team to team, is it any surprise that players would chase the opportunity to win titles and would even agree among themselves to join forces on the same team? Of course not. It’s the natural thing to do. You want to win. You want to win titles. You know your legacy is tied to winning titles. You do what it takes. If your team’s GM and owner are not delivering the goods, you find someone who does, or you take matters into your own hands.

Lebron and Durant are fortunate enough to play in an era in which players have the power to control their destiny. They wanted to win. They wanted titles. And they got what they wanted.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 7:55 pm    Post subject:

^
In addition, the notion that players should feel compelled to stay with the team that drafted them is silly.

Durant is a Washington kid who grew up wanting to play for Toronto (cause he liked Vince Carter). To his misforture, OKC got his draft rights and he had to play there if he wanted to be in the NBA.

The idea that Durant has some obligation to OKC, beyond fulfilling the terms of his contract, is ridiculous. During his time, Durant certainly saw OKC trade lots of guys withouit a second thought to what they wanted.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 10:34 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
^
In addition, the notion that players should feel compelled to stay with the team that drafted them is silly.

Durant is a Washington kid who grew up wanting to play for Toronto (cause he liked Vince Carter). To his misforture, OKC got his draft rights and he had to play there if he wanted to be in the NBA.

The idea that Durant has some obligation to OKC, beyond fulfilling the terms of his contract, is ridiculous. During his time, Durant certainly saw OKC trade lots of guys withouit a second thought to what they wanted.

Most reasonable people did not demand Durant to stay in OKC. It is joining a 73 win superteam (Finals loser or otherwise) that rubbed them the wrong way. If he joined the Celtics I don't think many outside of OKC would have complained.

Players should have the freedom to win without being tied down to bad management or a city they dislike, but the flip side is that it's hard to respect a player who goes to a situation which is literally the easiest road there. An NBA championship wouldn't be very meaningful if your competition were a bunch of 14 year olds; there's an implicit expectation that you overcame some sort of tribulation. Obviously it's not that extreme but the 2017 Warriors championship felt far more like that than anything.

It's also why many people discount Bill Russell's 11 championships to an extent for playing on a supposed* superteam an era of 12 teams; inherent in that calculation is the fact that Russell simply had an easier route to a championship than modern teams have, both in terms of competition (his team had so many HOFers) and logistics (he just had fewer rounds to play in).

*Whether or not you agree with this assessment of the '60s Celtics is irrelevant to the point.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 10:38 pm    Post subject:

Eh, if Durant joined “your” (meaning anybody) team, even if it was a 73 win team, you wouldn’t have a problem, but it matters on someone else’s team. The object is to win. Why wouldn’t you choose the best shot you can get?
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 10:52 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Eh, if Durant joined “your” (meaning anybody) team, even if it was a 73 win team, you wouldn’t have a problem, but it matters on someone else’s team. The object is to win. Why wouldn’t you choose the best shot you can get?

Personal fan partisanship has nothing to do with it. For example, obviously I have a particular grievance with him joining the Celtics and in terms of partisanship him joining the Warriors was better, but my argument of him as a player/ competitor is still that him joining Boston would have been "OK."

I'm speaking solely in terms of how it reflects on Durant in terms of fan perception and why his decision has invited so much criticism. Straw manning it as "Well people just demanded he stayed in OKC instead of seeking the best for him" is a simply incorrect argument.

And the reason why you don't choose the best shot you can get is the same reason why when you lose a game of pick up, you don't necessarily remediate that by joining the team that just beat you. The accomplishment of winning is diminished. I don't even think Durant's 2017 ring is more laudable than LeBron's 2015 performance sans Love and Irving, even though LeBron didn't even win that year. It's a subjective assessment of course, but I think most of us intuitively make these assessments.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 11:22 pm    Post subject:

Eh, I think like many fans, you’re just making a myth for this that wouldn’t apply elsewhere. A free agent should go to the best place for him, and if, as is the case with the max salary, money is relatively equal, then why wouldn’t you go to the best team you can? This strange idea that this is some sort of macho pick up rules is just hogwash.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 11:24 pm    Post subject:

Btw, you straw manned the straw man you accused me of. I said if you’re a fan of the team he went to, it doesn’t bother you how many games that team won or if they beat him. Has nothing to do with him staying in OKC
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:18 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Btw, you straw manned the straw man you accused me of. I said if you’re a fan of the team he went to, it doesn’t bother you how many games that team won or if they beat him. Has nothing to do with him staying in OKC

I didn't straw man you, that straw man was brought up by activeverb; his post was the context of our conversation and pertinent to the exact thing I was responding to in your comment. Apologies for not being clearer.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:30 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Btw, you straw manned the straw man you accused me of. I said if you’re a fan of the team he went to, it doesn’t bother you how many games that team won or if they beat him. Has nothing to do with him staying in OKC

I didn't straw man you, that straw man was brought up by activeverb; his post was the context of our conversation and pertinent to the exact thing I was responding to in your comment. Apologies for not being clearer.


None needed, misunderstanding both ways. Cheers.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:39 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Eh, I think like many fans, you’re just making a myth for this that wouldn’t apply elsewhere. A free agent should go to the best place for him, and if, as is the case with the max salary, money is relatively equal, then why wouldn’t you go to the best team you can? This strange idea that this is some sort of macho pick up rules is just hogwash.

You ask why not go to the best team possible? In this particular context, the answer is because by adding his overwhelming talent to a team that was already largely dominating the league, the 2017 season just had no stakes. There's no challenge, there's nothing to overcome. What is the point? Durant won Finals MVP in 2017, but what is it ever in question? If the Olympics were against Angola 12x, would the Dream Team take pride in achieving gold medal?

Durant intuits this, by the way -- that some decisions are okay and some aren't. It's not some made up fan nonsense. Durant said himself the decision was only possible because the Warriors lost. So for him, the line of acceptability for the decision was he couldn't go to the reigning champions. OK he's entitled to that belief. Most fans, however, believe that joining a 73-win team that was 1 game away from winning 2 rings in a row was on the wrong side of that line, and they judge him accordingly.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:51 am    Post subject:

We should separate the "legacy" discussion from the "best" discussion. If you were a GM in an all time fantasy draft, who do you want to build your team around that gives you the best chance to win?
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 1:46 am    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
We should separate the "legacy" discussion from the "best" discussion. If you were a GM in an all time fantasy draft, who do you want to build your team around that gives you the best chance to win?


You start with Michael Jordan, no question
Magic Johnson PG
Lebron SF
Tim Duncan PF
and depending on what era's rules they are playing in, young KAJ or prime Shaq
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:19 am    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:
trablos wrote:
We should separate the "legacy" discussion from the "best" discussion. If you were a GM in an all time fantasy draft, who do you want to build your team around that gives you the best chance to win?


You start with Michael Jordan, no question
Magic Johnson PG
Lebron SF
Tim Duncan PF
and depending on what era's rules they are playing in, young KAJ or prime Shaq

Right, I might disagree with your list, but not the approach you used to create it. We often get caught up in jaw-dropping stats, MVPs and other achievements, but those are often more due to particular circumstances, which requires more nuance. The "best" simply means "who am I taking over anybody else if I want to maximize the benefit to my team".
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:49 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Eh, if Durant joined “your” (meaning anybody) team, even if it was a 73 win team, you wouldn’t have a problem, but it matters on someone else’s team. The object is to win. Why wouldn’t you choose the best shot you can get?


Of course Durant has the right to choose the best shot he can get to win but don't start complaining if people criticize you for joining the team that just beat you when you're already on a contending team. We're fans of teams first, not fans of player first.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:54 am    Post subject:

Kobe
Jordan
Lebron
Duncan
KAJ

My superteam of superteams. And yes I have Kobe at PG over Magic. I think it is better defense and Kobe is more then capable of being a PG on that team. Not to mention his shooting will be needed.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 6:36 am    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
We should separate the "legacy" discussion from the "best" discussion. If you were a GM in an all time fantasy draft, who do you want to build your team around that gives you the best chance to win?


This is the veil of ignorance scenario. You do not know who else would be on the roster. You just get to pick one guy to build your team around. You don't necessarily know what era you are playing in, as far as rules go. However, you can assume that it is going to be in the shot clock era with the current court dimensions (three point line, 16 foot lane, etc.).

You could make a case for any of the great players, but for me it would come down to MJ, Kareem, or Lebron. I would also consider Wilt and Magic. The choice would depend on the style that I wanted to play. I would probably go with MJ.

Some people want to punt by picking teams in this manner. The reality is that most of these teams would never work because they aren't balanced. They tend to be teams full of scorers, but there is only one ball. You could beat them with balanced teams of lesser players.

For the current discussion, the pertinent question is who would be the single player that you would choose, if you were behind a veil of ignorance? You have to assume a roster of generic teammates, but you don't know the specific traits of any of them. It's an interesting thought exercise.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 9:46 am    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
We should separate the "legacy" discussion from the "best" discussion. If you were a GM in an all time fantasy draft, who do you want to build your team around that gives you the best chance to win?


As you're breaking it down, legacy is more important than best. "Legacy" reflects what players actually accomplished. "Best" is a guess of how players would do in a hypothetical situation.

That said, I don't have much of a differentiation between "legacy" and "best" myself -- the guys I'd choose for my fantasy team aren't different than how I'd rank them based on their actual accomplishments. So I'd go with either MJ or Kareem for the "Best" choice, just as they'd be my top two for "Legacy."

Ironically, there is a thread in the general basketball forum about a guy who did a statistical analysis that attempts to identify the players who have provided the largest increase in the odds of a team winning championships over the course of their careers.

His top 5 were: Kareem, Jordan, Lebron, Russell, Shaq.


Last edited by activeverb on Sun May 20, 2018 10:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 8:38 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
trablos wrote:
We should separate the "legacy" discussion from the "best" discussion. If you were a GM in an all time fantasy draft, who do you want to build your team around that gives you the best chance to win?

It's an interesting thought exercise.

That's the whole point, it allows for a more nuanced discussion rather than hot takes like "6 beats 5 beats 3" and box score stats.
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:40 pm    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
trablos wrote:
We should separate the "legacy" discussion from the "best" discussion. If you were a GM in an all time fantasy draft, who do you want to build your team around that gives you the best chance to win?

It's an interesting thought exercise.

That's the whole point, it allows for a more nuanced discussion rather than hot takes like "6 beats 5 beats 3" and box score stats.


You could have a nuanced discussion whether you're going by "legacy" or "best" -- just depends how much thought you want to put into the discussion.

Since you started this off: Who would be your three top picks for "best" and why did you select them in that order? Would your picks for the top three "best" be different than your top three "legacy" and if so why?
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:14 pm    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
While were talking, I'm curious to know how Kobe would have played with a legit all star guard/wing as a running mate. He's only ever had a big as an all star teammate and got robbed of the opportunity for "basketball reasons". One of the biggest "what ifs" imo
you saw a very small glimpse with GP running point before phil shut that real PG stuff down and made GP become a triangle pg which never worked obviously.

only glimpse since kb was flying in from eagle every other game. so you didnt get a full kobe.



^^like that

and this



and this




^^what you watch for in that full game is how little work kobe had to do in order to get in scoring position. devan george loved playing with a real pg. lol.

do you know how many fast break points kobe missed out on being the lakers primary ball handler? this is why when people mention fg% i have to remind them. jordan had pippen to hit him on the cut often, to hit him on a fast break. like he could legit break out often and know the pass was going to be on target from pip, rodman, or kukoc.
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:31 am    Post subject:

Because he's a better player
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 9:56 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Eh, if Durant joined “your” (meaning anybody) team, even if it was a 73 win team, you wouldn’t have a problem, but it matters on someone else’s team. The object is to win. Why wouldn’t you choose the best shot you can get?
its funny when people ask this question as if they dont know the answer.

You dont play to win and nothing else. You play to compete.

like someone above said playing 14 year olds is not competing.

I use to have a friend in highschool that was a year or so younger than me. we would go play ball (with 10 foot rims) at this park that was right next to the basketball courts for an elementary school with 8 foot rims. from time to time I would have to go straight home from school and I would miss balling at the park. so the next morning on the school bus. My friend would tell me how I missed it ,and how he was killing it the other day. Then he said something like He dunked on someone. I knew it right then. stop the lies. you can barely grab the net. So how was that possible. then he says oh yeah i was playing on the little court in the elementary school vs some junior high kids.

Now ask me if I should join his team since its all about winning and nothing else?

thats the point. when you are in a situation where there is NO comp at all. where you can more or less sweep everyone in the playoffs all the time and we already knew this was the case going in. whats the point of joining that level of team?you're not learning how to win or play super hard to win because you dont need to. you have so much help you will never have to exert that level of energy.

Yes you want a very good to great team to compete with. but you dont reallllly want to just run over everyone every day every year for some team you hopped on that was already a championship team when healthy.

No matter how good you may be, you end up becoming a coattail rider.
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject:

the thing that i disagree with is that the warriors would still be successful without Durant.

in my opinion, if they don't have Durant, they don't automatically beat the cavs last year in the finals. maybe that series goes 7. i think the cavs had the blueprint on beating the warriors after getting in their heads and coming back from 3-1.

as good as curry is, he's soft. i don't think he's capable of grinding out year in and out.

if someone says they don't need Durant to beat the cavs, then i disagree with that (back when the cavs had kyrie).
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject:

Krispy Kreme wrote:


as good as curry is, he's soft. i don't think he's capable of grinding out year in and out.


And yet he has.

Seriously, with what he's accomplished how do you get soft? If he was soft they wouldn't have even made the finals once. I mean what do you base this on? Why aren't other scoring PGs who consistently lose not soft? Like Lillard? But the one who always wins is soft?
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