Depends how much value you place in team accomplishments. Statistically, both raw and advanced statistics favor Lebron. In fact, it's almost an insult to compare Kobe to Lebron in that regard. Lebron, Jordan, Shaq and Curry (and Harden and Durant to a certain extent) are all in a tier of their own in the modern era when you look at what they did on the court. Kobe never reached those levels. But he played on the best teams in the league the majority of his career and he won a lot, so legacy-wise he's right there with Lebron. In terms of on-court production? lolno
I'm not putting Kobe over Lebron on any all-time list, but when I learned about Lebron's stat padding antics (e.g telling teammates to shoot when he passes to them or to clear the lane for rebounds), it sort of delegitimatized some of the metrics to me. I recall Durant even saying they were cautious of taking end of the quarter shots or half-court heaves because it would have an adverse effect on some of the metrics. The thing with Kobe is he didn't give a damn about any of that. He never had that in the back of his mind and put winning above all of it. I respect that.
This dude just literally said that Kobe has never reached Curry, Harden or Durant's level.
In terms of on court production? No, Kobe doesn't belong on their levels. You can pull up their metrics, it's a losing argument.
This is where stats and analytics go wrong. Anybody who thinks Harden is even on the same level as Kobe let alone a level above needs to seriously reconsider how much value they put in stats. That’s an absolutely ridiculous statement and would hold zero water in any basketball discussion with anybody who understands the game. Kobe won 5 titles all as one of the top 2 players on the team including 2 where he was the best player. Harden has only made it to 1 NBA finals and lost as the 3rd or 4th best player on the team. Stats and analytics need to be put in context not used to make crazy statements like Harden>Kobe.
Because he is better on both ends of the court and significantly more efficient with the ball.
Some of these games Lebron has had just in this postseason ( 15 years in ), nobody is capable of matching those performances.
LeBron is not “better on both ends of the court” than Kobe.
Statistically he is and it isn't even close. The advanced numbers have not been kind to Kobe's numbers, especially his scoring efficiency.
Its not a grand conspiracy, Lebron is better and you can use the 5 vs 3 argument but nobody thinks Russell is better than KAJ because of the rings argument.
Lebron has had so many TS% years above 600. Kobe never had one above 580. We all know Lebron is the better passer and rebounder.
You could argue defense because though numbers are primitive. But what we have, favour James.
Because he is better on both ends of the court and significantly more efficient with the ball.
Some of these games Lebron has had just in this postseason ( 15 years in ), nobody is capable of matching those performances.
LeBron is not “better on both ends of the court” than Kobe.
Statistically he is and it isn't even close. The advanced numbers have not been kind to Kobe's numbers, especially his scoring efficiency.
Its not a grand conspiracy, Lebron is better and you can use the 5 vs 3 argument but nobody thinks Russell is better than KAJ because of the rings argument.
Lebron has had so many TS% years above 600. Kobe never had one above 580. We all know Lebron is the better passer and rebounder.
You could argue defense because though numbers are primitive. But what we have, favour James.
Nobody thinks Russell is better than KAJ or the GOAT because he won his rings in the caveman era. If any modern player had 11 or even 8+ rings you better believe he would be being hailed as the GOAT. Stop lying to yourself.
LeBron has lost 5 finals, and everybody who held Kobe's 2 finals losses against his GOAT argument now have to backpedal like hypocrites and shift the goalposts once again in order to protect/cushion LeBron's legacy.
Depends how much value you place in team accomplishments. Statistically, both raw and advanced statistics favor Lebron. In fact, it's almost an insult to compare Kobe to Lebron in that regard. Lebron, Jordan, Shaq and Curry (and Harden and Durant to a certain extent) are all in a tier of their own in the modern era when you look at what they did on the court. Kobe never reached those levels. But he played on the best teams in the league the majority of his career and he won a lot, so legacy-wise he's right there with Lebron. In terms of on-court production? lolno
I'm not putting Kobe over Lebron on any all-time list, but when I learned about Lebron's stat padding antics (e.g telling teammates to shoot when he passes to them or to clear the lane for rebounds), it sort of delegitimatized some of the metrics to me. I recall Durant even saying they were cautious of taking end of the quarter shots or half-court heaves because it would have an adverse effect on some of the metrics. The thing with Kobe is he didn't give a damn about any of that. He never had that in the back of his mind and put winning above all of it. I respect that.
This dude just literally said that Kobe has never reached Curry, Harden or Durant's level.
In terms of on court production? No, Kobe doesn't belong on their levels. You can pull up their metrics, it's a losing argument.
1) @ comparing stats across different eras with different rules, different physicality and different pace of play. Funny how you analytics dudes are always so "schooled" on advanced stats yet you (conveniently/purposefully) ignore the stats and facts that indicate you can't really compare stats across different eras.
Aside from Jordan, the other players played in the same NBA Kobe did. Lebron was outplaying Kobe while they were both playing in the same era. I'm curious what rules what so different between Kobe's prime and Durant's and Harden's. Hand checking and physicality? Kobe was around when these rule changes were made, in fact, he was one of the main beneficiaries of the rule changes.
2) Kobe is a superior defensive player than Curry, Harden, and Durant (only Durant of that bunch has just recently started playing elite defense, while Kobe was elite since his early 20's).
Kobe was an elite defender during his first title run and coasted off reparation after that. He wasn't an elite defender during his second title run although he was a good defender when he locked himself in. His defense wasn't good enough to mask the advantage that Harden, Curry and Durant have over him offensively.
3) Both Curry and Harden have a history of underperforming in the playoffs (where Kobe has thrived) as compared to their historic regular seasons.
This is some lazy parroting from the talking heads of ESPN. That is not true, Curry, Durant and Harden have all had great Playoff performances. Have they had some underwhelming series? Of course, but I also remember Kobe blowing a 3-1 lead against the Suns, Kobe blowing a 24 point lead and suffering the worst elimination game beatdown by the Celtics in the Finals, going 6 for 24 in the biggest game of his career (but muh rebounds) and embarrassing himself and his "superteam" by shooting the Lakers out of the 2004 Finals. However, he still had great Playoff success despite some blunders. And a lot of his blunders were masked because he played with great talent. Remember that Pau clutch putback against the Thunder in 2010? Or Artest's clutch putback against the Suns that same Playoff run? They were a result of Kobe missing critical shots at the end of Playoff games, nobody remembers them because his teammates picked up the slack.
But hey, keep crunching those excel spreadsheets.
I know this is a sensitive topic but Kobe isn't this basketball God. He's an all time great and a top 10 player of all time. His peak was just never in the Lebron/Jordan tier. However, you don't have to reach that level to be an all time great. Duncan never had a season like Shaq yet Duncan is still regarded as a top 10 player and the greatest PF ever. Kobe and Duncan were just consistent.
Hilarious how you accuse me of parroting lazy ESPN narratives yet you literally just went through the entire "how to discredit Kobe" bible that his detractors have been parroting for his entire career.
When Gasol "bailed out" Kobe with the putback against the Thunder in Game 6:
Kobe: 32 PTS, 7 TRB, 3 AST on 48% FG
including 16 PTS in the 3rd quarter to keep it close
Gasol: 9 PTS and 18 TRB (but muh rebounds, right...? lol) on 36% FG
When Artest "bailed out" Kobe with the putback against the Suns in Game 5:
Kobe: 30 PTS, 11 TRB, 9 AST 4 BLK on 44% FG
Artest: 4 PTS, 5 TRB, 2 STL on 22% FG ( ), and took an ill-advised shot on the prior possession to give up the lead.
Artest bailed HIMSELF out from choking the game/series away.
But funny how you mischaracterize those moments as "Kobe blunders" and his "teammates bailing him out".
LOL, typical Kobe detractor narratives.
BTW, anytime you use a "muh (fill in the blank)" meme in your argument, you reveal your ridiculous bias and immaturity. That's how reddit teenagers that post 'dank memes' argue over the internet when they become hostile or triggered by something.
Depends how much value you place in team accomplishments. Statistically, both raw and advanced statistics favor Lebron. In fact, it's almost an insult to compare Kobe to Lebron in that regard. Lebron, Jordan, Shaq and Curry (and Harden and Durant to a certain extent) are all in a tier of their own in the modern era when you look at what they did on the court. Kobe never reached those levels. But he played on the best teams in the league the majority of his career and he won a lot, so legacy-wise he's right there with Lebron. In terms of on-court production? lolno
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. Kobe's greatness is not based on his numbers, but rather his winning percentage and pure skill level (the belief that he could take anyone 1-on-1).
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29258 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:32 pm Post subject:
BynumForThree wrote:
Depends how much value you place in team accomplishments. Statistically, both raw and advanced statistics favor Lebron. In fact, it's almost an insult to compare Kobe to Lebron in that regard. Lebron, Jordan, Shaq and Curry (and Harden and Durant to a certain extent) are all in a tier of their own in the modern era when you look at what they did on the court. Kobe never reached those levels. But he played on the best teams in the league the majority of his career and he won a lot, so legacy-wise he's right there with Lebron. In terms of on-court production? lolno
If we're going by on-court production. Lol at everyone not named Wilt.
The guy who averaged 30 and 23 his whole career wins. Lebron is miles behind him.
Only reason why LBJ has a slightly higher PER is because they didn't keep track of blocks or steals back then. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Joined: 03 Oct 2003 Posts: 8323 Location: Santa Monica
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:35 pm Post subject:
bum2 wrote:
tkLAKERS wrote:
bum2 wrote:
Because he is better on both ends of the court and significantly more efficient with the ball.
Some of these games Lebron has had just in this postseason ( 15 years in ), nobody is capable of matching those performances.
LeBron is not “better on both ends of the court” than Kobe.
Statistically he is and it isn't even close. The advanced numbers have not been kind to Kobe's numbers, especially his scoring efficiency.
Its not a grand conspiracy, Lebron is better and you can use the 5 vs 3 argument but nobody thinks Russell is better than KAJ because of the rings argument.
Lebron has had so many TS% years above 600. Kobe never had one above 580. We all know Lebron is the better passer and rebounder.
You could argue defense because though numbers are primitive. But what we have, favour James.
Lebron is more efficient than Kobe, but Kobe has gone on streaks that no one other than Wilt and Jordan have gone on. Lebron has been consistent offensively, but Kobe has had insane peaks. I've looked at a rundown of Kobe's 40+ point games, and I've noticed that in almost all of them he shot a higher than usual FG%.
What's better and more impactful: scoring 27 points on 55% shooting, or scoring 40 points on say 48% shooting while still getting your usual 5 assists?
When you look beneath the surface of their averages, Kobe is a better scorer. _________________ Lakers 49ers Chargers Dodgers
Last edited by slavavov on Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
When Gasol "bailed out" Kobe with the putback against the Thunder in Game 6:
Kobe: 32 PTS, 7 TRB, 3 AST on 48% FG
including 16 PTS in the 3rd quarter to keep it close
Gasol: 9 PTS and 18 TRB (but muh rebounds, right...? lol) on 36% FG
When Artest "bailed out" Kobe with the putback against the Suns in Game 5:
Kobe: 30 PTS, 11 TRB, 9 AST 4 BLK on 44% FG
Artest: 4 PTS, 5 TRB, 2 STL on 22% FG ( ), and took an ill-advised shot on the prior possession to give up the lead.
Artest bailed HIMSELF out from choking the game/series away.
But funny how you mischaracterize those moments as "Kobe blunders" and his "teammates bailing him out".
LOL, typical Kobe detractor narratives.
BTW, anytime you use a "muh (fill in the blank)" meme in your argument, you reveal your ridiculous bias and immaturity. That's how reddit teenagers that post 'dank memes' argue over the internet when they become hostile or triggered by something.
When Artest "bailed out" Kobe with the putback against the Suns in Game 5:
Kobe: 30 PTS, 11 TRB, 9 AST 4 BLK on 44% FG
Artest: 4 PTS, 5 TRB, 2 STL on 22% FG ( ), and took an ill-advised shot on the prior possession to give up the lead.
Artest bailed HIMSELF out from choking the game/series away.
But funny how you mischaracterize those moments as "Kobe blunders" and his "teammates bailing him out".
LOL, typical Kobe detractor narratives.
BTW, anytime you use a "muh (fill in the blank)" meme in your argument, you reveal your ridiculous bias and immaturity. That's how reddit teenagers that post 'dank memes' argue over the internet when they become hostile or triggered by something.
It reveals who actually watched the games and who didn't.
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Barkley: Why are people moving Lebron past Kobe?
NYClakerguy wrote:
MY man:
For anyone over the age of 25, do you agree the discussion about Lebron vs MJ is premature or has Lebron already superceded Kobe's impact on the game?
The reason they are moving bron past kobe is because espn said so years ago. This was also somewhat designed by the nba so they would never get stuck with one lone star like jordan and after he was gone that would be it. the eagle,co stuff didnt help either.
Truth is, that last cavs vs pacers game is the first time I've ever seen bron look 100% comfortable in his own skin the entire game and had confidence in his ability to take and make shots from ANYWHERE. not just bulldozing, not just wide open 3's with no one on him. the man looked like kobe or mj getting to his sweet spots from mid range. and pulling up. after all these years, with all that talent/ability. he finally said forget it and just took what the team gave him and killed them for it. He could not do this a few years ago vs certain teams.
but bron looked more like kobe and jordan last night than he ever has before in my opinion. with all that said. he can't pass kobe nor jordan. and its not even really his fault. its this era. its too easy to score now with the lack of defense due to the rules being changed. I like Victor O, I like a lot of these new young guys. they are good. but they aint this good. its too many guys tossing up the numbers vs one another like its nothing, night in and night now. no one can stop anyone anymore due to the rules. so its a glorified shooting contest with some semi zone coverage thrown in to stop the automatic layup every time.
What the heck would jordan do with 2018 rules on defense? he was dropping 50's and 60's on people that were strong and holding him the moment he past half court.
kobe was dropping the numbers on people grabbing him all the way up the court while running under him ON PURPOSE while he was shooting (jalen rose, dahntay jones)
imagine if kobe played in the "protect the shooter era"? forget kobe. what if Ray allen..prime sonics ray or even young bucks ray and big dog robinson played in the era of protect the shooter.
These current day rules completely skew the stats. you can't even make a legit comparison with these new guys to some of the old guys because of this.
When Artest "bailed out" Kobe with the putback against the Suns in Game 5:
Kobe: 30 PTS, 11 TRB, 9 AST 4 BLK on 44% FG
Artest: 4 PTS, 5 TRB, 2 STL on 22% FG ( ), and took an ill-advised shot on the prior possession to give up the lead.
Artest bailed HIMSELF out from choking the game/series away.
But funny how you mischaracterize those moments as "Kobe blunders" and his "teammates bailing him out".
LOL, typical Kobe detractor narratives.
BTW, anytime you use a "muh (fill in the blank)" meme in your argument, you reveal your ridiculous bias and immaturity. That's how reddit teenagers that post 'dank memes' argue over the internet when they become hostile or triggered by something.
It reveals who actually watched the games and who didn't.
From a Kobe/Lakers hater, that is quite surprising.
Yeah, especially when he just said last week that Harden is a better scorer than Kobe
everyone is a better scorer than kobe in this inflated stats era of no man to man hard nosed defense and protect the shooter. there's a reason all the players with handles and a jumper are destroying the league offensively. its not just harden. its a good 10 or so guys playing along the perimeter just toying with the defense because the defenders individually can't keep up because of the rules. which makes for great offense but subpar defense.
it's not a knock on this era guys its a reality check. do not compare these guys current day stats to any other older era. it wont work.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 1722 Location: Chicago, IL
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:20 am Post subject:
As great a player as LeBron is, I have a hard time respecting anybody who consistently walks away when the going gets tough.
Of all the players he's been lumped with as "the greatest"s he's the only who has twice left his team when they couldn't get him to the championship anymore. He's likely going to be doing that a third time this summer. I felt bad for my Cleveland friends the first time, I'm going to openly mock them this time.
As arrogant as Kobe and MJ were, neither of them had actions that screamed so loudly: I'm better than this team.
The Decision 3.0 coming to the internet this summer.
I have very little doubt that #8 would average 40 ppg in this era on good efficiency, after all he put up 35 ppg in an era infinitely tougher on perimeter players and playing at a much lower pace.
On a championship level team today? prime Kobe would get 35ppg plus the ring
Joined: 23 Jul 2004 Posts: 12898 Location: Los Angeles
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:36 am Post subject:
It was such a joy watching Lebron have to scratch and claw in a first round series. That's never happened to him. He's always had the benefit of a conference whose talent and depth chart went off a cliff after about the 3 seed. I've always said that Kobe and the Lakers faced first round opponents better than anything Lebron has ever seen until maybe the ECF. You're going to look awesome all the time when you don't even have to get out of bed until the conference finals. Look at the Kobe Shaq Lakers, the Kobe Pau Lakers...some of those 1st and 2nd round teams were vicious. Lebron could never...and that was year after year after year. _________________ So glad we gave you your flowers while you were here, Kobe.
As great a player as LeBron is, I have a hard time respecting anybody who consistently walks away when the going gets tough.
Of all the players he's been lumped with as "the greatest"s he's the only who has twice left his team when they couldn't get him to the championship anymore. He's likely going to be doing that a third time this summer.
True. On the other hand, Lebron plays in an era where it's much easier for players to leave their teams -- contracts are shorter and they have more opportunities to leave their teams than in the past; the advantages of staying with your current team is less; fans/advertisers seem more willing to accept superstar mobility.
The larger question is: Does it matter? Player-team "loyalty" was always a fiction; players and teams stay together out of mutual self-interest or contractual obligation. All superstars want as much talent around them as possible; they don't want a hard path if they can avoid it.
Teams trade players all the time to improve themselves; why shouldn't players "trade" themselves to a better team through free agency?
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90304 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:45 pm Post subject:
Yeah, the fact that teams can trade a player when they want and sign other free agents but a guy is somehow a quitter for choosing his own best place(s) is a part of that weird syndrome where the fans identify with management more than players. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Yeah, the fact that teams can trade a player when they want and sign other free agents but a guy is somehow a quitter for choosing his own best place(s) is a part of that weird syndrome where the fans identify with management more than players.
Fans identify with management because management represents the self-interest of the team they root for and thus their own self-interest.
Many of the people who criticize Lebron or Durant for jumping ship will have rationalizations for why Shaq, Kareem and Wilt coming to the Lakers was completely different and completely OK.
But everything makese sense once you accept everyone (fans, teams, and players) is acting in their own self interest (and why shouldn't they; the NBA isn't charity work). However, people for some reason have trouble admitting that, and so hypocrisy is rampant.
There is a second bit of inconsistency lurking in these discussions. Some people want to downgrade a player who switches teams to win rings, but then want to make ring counting the trump card in player rankings. Either one is a defensible position, but combining the two makes no sense.
Anyway, this is an argument that will lose traction as the years go by. It used to be rare for a superstar, or even an all star caliber player, to switch teams as a free agent. Now it has become routine.
There is a second bit of inconsistency lurking in these discussions. Some people want to downgrade a player who switches teams to win rings, but then want to make ring counting the trump card in player rankings. Either one is a defensible position, but combining the two makes no sense.
Anyway, this is an argument that will lose traction as the years go by. It used to be rare for a superstar, or even an all star caliber player, to switch teams as a free agent. Now it has become routine.
Very few people have an actual methodology for ranking players. They choose who they like or don't like and then defend their position after the fact. As a result, they just choose the best argument for the particular player, and their argument for the next player can easily be contradictory
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