Barkley: Why are people moving Lebron past Kobe?
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DangeRuss
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:06 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:
activeverb wrote:
24Legend007 wrote:
For me the reasons Lebron can never be the GOAT

A 17/7/7 stat line in an NBA finals.

The level of talent he actually played with is much better then what MJ had imo. I always here the argument that players and the game is better well that could also mean Jordan won with less.

A 3-5 finals record. The only way I think most people would of considered Kobe the GOAT is if he posted a 7-0 record in the finals. I always here alot of excuses for Lebron but Kobe never gets such an argument. Like how he actually sat through a Lakers rebuild where someone like James runs for the hills when the going gets tough. First chance, he's out.

The stats are only thing putting Lebron in the convo, the man may have six finals losses and we are talking about him being better then MJ. It kind of boggles the mind? And no championships arent everything. I would take Kobe's resume, and would take the five titles Kobe helped to bring to LA.


1. I don't think Lebron will ever be the consensus GOAT. Highest I can see him ever coming is 3rd.

2. Lebron sure stunk it up against Dallas. I think that's reasonable to take into the mix.

3. "Finals record" -- never understood that concept. It presumes thart getting to the finals and losing is worst than not making the finals; heck it's worse than finishing 0-82. I've brought this up a few times and everyone always ignores the question, which makes me assume the people who bring up the "finals record" don't have an explanation for why it's important. I'd be impress if you attempted to answer that.

4. I rarely see anyone say Lebron is better than MJ; when they do, it seems to be only to get attention. People merely say it's something to discuss or ask if he'll ever reach GOAT status. What irritates some LGers, of course, is people rarely asked that about Kobe anymore, which they interpret as a slight against Kobe or a statement Lebron is better.


3. itís the same concept for when people say, ďlebron has been to 7 straight finalsĒ as if itís a crowning achievement. Itís impressive, but then you look at the finals record that he lost in the finals 5 times and then realize that the east has been a sham and historically bad, full of injured competition and far lesser talent. So itís less of a ďfinals teamĒ and more of a ďwell somebody from the east had to show up hereĒ


So Magic losing 4 of 9 should be held against him? In a weak Western Conference? I disagree.


Magic won 5/9, 55% win percentage and has 5 rings for it. Not even close to 3 out of 8 With a 37% win percentage in finals. Bad comparison especially considering the east was far more weak over lebrons reign than back when magic faced the east in the finals. Another thing is people donít clamor for magic to be the greatest of all time or use his finals appearance as a distinguishing factor for his greatness.
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Treble Clef
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:11 pm    Post subject:

DangeRuss wrote:


Magic won 5/9, 55% win percentage and has 5 rings for it. Not even close to 3 out of 8 With a 37% win percentage in finals. Bad comparison especially considering the east was far more weak over lebrons reign than back when magic faced the east in the finals. Another thing is people donít clamor for magic to be the greatest of all time or use his finals appearance as a distinguishing factor for his greatness.


Magic is at the top of quite a few peoples all time lists. I know several people who are a lot older than me who insist that no one has been better than him.

These discussions are always filled with a lot of emotion and personal bias so there will never be a universally agreed upon list.
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venturalakersfan
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:13 pm    Post subject:

DangeRuss wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:
activeverb wrote:
24Legend007 wrote:
For me the reasons Lebron can never be the GOAT

A 17/7/7 stat line in an NBA finals.

The level of talent he actually played with is much better then what MJ had imo. I always here the argument that players and the game is better well that could also mean Jordan won with less.

A 3-5 finals record. The only way I think most people would of considered Kobe the GOAT is if he posted a 7-0 record in the finals. I always here alot of excuses for Lebron but Kobe never gets such an argument. Like how he actually sat through a Lakers rebuild where someone like James runs for the hills when the going gets tough. First chance, he's out.

The stats are only thing putting Lebron in the convo, the man may have six finals losses and we are talking about him being better then MJ. It kind of boggles the mind? And no championships arent everything. I would take Kobe's resume, and would take the five titles Kobe helped to bring to LA.


1. I don't think Lebron will ever be the consensus GOAT. Highest I can see him ever coming is 3rd.

2. Lebron sure stunk it up against Dallas. I think that's reasonable to take into the mix.

3. "Finals record" -- never understood that concept. It presumes thart getting to the finals and losing is worst than not making the finals; heck it's worse than finishing 0-82. I've brought this up a few times and everyone always ignores the question, which makes me assume the people who bring up the "finals record" don't have an explanation for why it's important. I'd be impress if you attempted to answer that.

4. I rarely see anyone say Lebron is better than MJ; when they do, it seems to be only to get attention. People merely say it's something to discuss or ask if he'll ever reach GOAT status. What irritates some LGers, of course, is people rarely asked that about Kobe anymore, which they interpret as a slight against Kobe or a statement Lebron is better.


3. itís the same concept for when people say, ďlebron has been to 7 straight finalsĒ as if itís a crowning achievement. Itís impressive, but then you look at the finals record that he lost in the finals 5 times and then realize that the east has been a sham and historically bad, full of injured competition and far lesser talent. So itís less of a ďfinals teamĒ and more of a ďwell somebody from the east had to show up hereĒ


So Magic losing 4 of 9 should be held against him? In a weak Western Conference? I disagree.


Magic won 5/9, 55% win percentage and has 5 rings for it. Not even close to 3 out of 8 With a 37% win percentage in finals. Bad comparison especially considering the east was far more weak over lebrons reign than back when magic faced the east in the finals. Another thing is people donít clamor for magic to be the greatest of all time or use his finals appearance as a distinguishing factor for his greatness.


People should clamor for Magic being the GOAT. Personally I think that is Kareem but Magic should be in the conversation.
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governator
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:18 pm    Post subject:

Treble Clef wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:


Magic won 5/9, 55% win percentage and has 5 rings for it. Not even close to 3 out of 8 With a 37% win percentage in finals. Bad comparison especially considering the east was far more weak over lebrons reign than back when magic faced the east in the finals. Another thing is people donít clamor for magic to be the greatest of all time or use his finals appearance as a distinguishing factor for his greatness.


Magic is at the top of quite a few peoples all time lists. I know several people who are a lot older than me who insist that no one has been better than him.

These discussions are always filled with a lot of emotion and personal bias so there will never be a universally agreed upon list.


Universally agreed list:
1. kareem
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Wilt
5. Shaq

what's there to argue
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:25 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Universally agreed list:
1. kareem
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Wilt
5. Shaq

what's there to argue


No. Kobe and Shaq are generally not on that list. You forgot MJ and I personally would put Lebron on that list. Although that could be debated. I have Kobe and Shaq somewhere between 6-10.
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governator
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject:

32 wrote:
governator wrote:
Universally agreed list:
1. kareem
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Wilt
5. Shaq

what's there to argue


No. Kobe and Shaq are generally not on that list. You forgot MJ and I personally would put Lebron on that list. Although that could be debated. I have Kobe and Shaq somewhere between 6-10.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:45 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
32 wrote:
governator wrote:
Universally agreed list:
1. kareem
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Wilt
5. Shaq

what's there to argue


No. Kobe and Shaq are generally not on that list. You forgot MJ and I personally would put Lebron on that list. Although that could be debated. I have Kobe and Shaq somewhere between 6-10.




Looks like a universal list of top Lakers.
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DangeRuss
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject:

32 wrote:
governator wrote:
Universally agreed list:
1. kareem
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Wilt
5. Shaq

what's there to argue


No. Kobe and Shaq are generally not on that list. You forgot MJ and I personally would put Lebron on that list. Although that could be debated. I have Kobe and Shaq somewhere between 6-10.


I think he was being tic with just adding lakers
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governator
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject:

Corey78 wrote:
governator wrote:
32 wrote:
governator wrote:
Universally agreed list:
1. kareem
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Wilt
5. Shaq

what's there to argue


No. Kobe and Shaq are generally not on that list. You forgot MJ and I personally would put Lebron on that list. Although that could be debated. I have Kobe and Shaq somewhere between 6-10.




Looks like a universal list of top Lakers.


Yes sir!
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32
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:53 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Corey78 wrote:
governator wrote:
32 wrote:
governator wrote:
Universally agreed list:
1. kareem
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Wilt
5. Shaq

what's there to argue


No. Kobe and Shaq are generally not on that list. You forgot MJ and I personally would put Lebron on that list. Although that could be debated. I have Kobe and Shaq somewhere between 6-10.




Looks like a universal list of top Lakers.


Yes sir!


Ok. I just jumped into this thread and saw this. I didn't realize that this was a Lakers list.
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Last edited by 32 on Tue May 15, 2018 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:53 pm    Post subject:

Any "Lakers" fan that pick Lebron over Kobe is...well I probably can't say here. Argue stats all you want because in that regard there is no argument, its Lebron. The bottom line as fans though is we want championships so give me Kobe all day if you are trying to win. Please drop off your fan membership card as you exit and stop disrespecting the man that brought us 5.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Treble Clef wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:


Magic won 5/9, 55% win percentage and has 5 rings for it. Not even close to 3 out of 8 With a 37% win percentage in finals. Bad comparison especially considering the east was far more weak over lebrons reign than back when magic faced the east in the finals. Another thing is people donít clamor for magic to be the greatest of all time or use his finals appearance as a distinguishing factor for his greatness.


Magic is at the top of quite a few peoples all time lists. I know several people who are a lot older than me who insist that no one has been better than him.

These discussions are always filled with a lot of emotion and personal bias so there will never be a universally agreed upon list.


Universally agreed list:
1. kareem
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Wilt
5. Shaq

what's there to argue


Nah, it's:

1. Meadowlark Lemon
2. Goose Tatum
3. Curly Neal
4. Jesus Shuttlesworth
5. Bugs Bunny
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:59 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
Treble Clef wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:


Magic won 5/9, 55% win percentage and has 5 rings for it. Not even close to 3 out of 8 With a 37% win percentage in finals. Bad comparison especially considering the east was far more weak over lebrons reign than back when magic faced the east in the finals. Another thing is people donít clamor for magic to be the greatest of all time or use his finals appearance as a distinguishing factor for his greatness.


Magic is at the top of quite a few peoples all time lists. I know several people who are a lot older than me who insist that no one has been better than him.

These discussions are always filled with a lot of emotion and personal bias so there will never be a universally agreed upon list.


Universally agreed list:
1. kareem
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Wilt
5. Shaq

what's there to argue


Nah, it's:

1. Meadowlark Lemon
2. Goose Tatum
3. Curly Neal
4. Jesus Shuttlesworth
5. Bugs Bunny


Does Air Bud make your top 10?
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governator
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
Treble Clef wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:


Magic won 5/9, 55% win percentage and has 5 rings for it. Not even close to 3 out of 8 With a 37% win percentage in finals. Bad comparison especially considering the east was far more weak over lebrons reign than back when magic faced the east in the finals. Another thing is people donít clamor for magic to be the greatest of all time or use his finals appearance as a distinguishing factor for his greatness.


Magic is at the top of quite a few peoples all time lists. I know several people who are a lot older than me who insist that no one has been better than him.

These discussions are always filled with a lot of emotion and personal bias so there will never be a universally agreed upon list.


Universally agreed list:
1. kareem
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Wilt
5. Shaq

what's there to argue


Nah, it's:

1. Meadowlark Lemon
2. Goose Tatum
3. Curly Neal
4. Jesus Shuttlesworth
5. Bugs Bunny


And we gonna ignore Billy Hoyle and Sidney Deane?
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governator
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:04 pm    Post subject:

32 wrote:
governator wrote:
Corey78 wrote:
governator wrote:
32 wrote:
governator wrote:
Universally agreed list:
1. kareem
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Wilt
5. Shaq

what's there to argue


No. Kobe and Shaq are generally not on that list. You forgot MJ and I personally would put Lebron on that list. Although that could be debated. I have Kobe and Shaq somewhere between 6-10.




Looks like a universal list of top Lakers.


Yes sir!


Ok. I just jumped into this thread and saw this. I didn't realize that this was a Lakers list.


Yeah man, this thread gotten stale, just trying to lighten it up
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:43 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Batguano wrote:

Honestly, I would argue that 2011 Mavericks over Heatles is an even bigger upset. The Pistons are in hindsight considered one of the greatest if not THE greatest defensive team of all time.



The funny thing is the Pistons weren't even the #1 defensive teamn in the NBA that year. The Spurs were, and we went through them pretty easily, but the Pistons pretty much made everyone on our team other than Shaq look like a division 2 college player. That series was a real clankfest.

Generally, I see both our loss to the Pistons and the Heat loss to Mavs listed as among the biggest upsets in NBA finals history. Our loss is generally a couple spots higher in the lists I've seen, but both tend to be in the top 5 of embarrassing losses. Even in hindsight, I don't have a strong sense of which was worse -- I think those series were a big blemish on both Kobe/Lakers and Lebron/Heat.

Batguano wrote:
Also the idea of what a Superteam is has changed over the years. And while Shaq, Kobe, Malone and Payton is certainly a Superteam, I think most people now in hindsight view them as an a team with aging pieces (kind of like how the Barkley, Drexler, Olajuwon Superteam is now viewed as past their prime when they got together), in comparison to the Superteams of this current era who are all in their primes (Heatles, Warriors, etc.). Not to mention they had key injuries (Malone), while the Heatles were completely healthy.


I haven't seen a lot of people make that distinction myself. In all the lists of NBA superteams I see, the Shaq/Kobe/Malone/Payton Lakers are right up there with the Lebron/Wade/Bosh Heat.

Is having two GOAT short-list guys in their prime with two aging Hall of Famers more or less super than one GOAT short-list guy in his prime, a top 25 guy in his prime, and a third Hall of Fame guy at a much lower tier than all the others? You could argue that one forever. (Heck, I'm not entirely sure that Lebron-Wade-Bosh were a stronger "superteam" than Shaq-Kobe alone from their second ring on.)

I consider them both superteams, but I don't have a strong sense on which one was more super. Both of them were sure two of the most hyped teams in NBA history.


Actually, post-Rasheed trade the Pistons are the greatest defensive team of all time when it comes to Defensive Rating. Post-Rasheed trade they had a DRTG of 90.9. For the entire year they were at 95.4 (good enough for 5th greatest all time)

https://i.imgur.com/izzwlMa.png

BTW, Kobe faced the 3 greatest defensive teams of all time (according to DRTG) in the 2004 Pistons, 2004 Spurs, and 2008 Celtics (two of them in the same playoffs). If you don't want to use the post-Rasheed trade qualifier then it's still 3 out of the 5 greatest defensive teams Kobe has faced.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:06 pm    Post subject:

Batguano wrote:

BTW, Kobe faced the 3 greatest defensive teams of all time (according to DRTG) in the 2004 Pistons, 2004 Spurs, and 2008 Celtics (two of them in the same playoffs). If you don't want to use the post-Rasheed trade qualifier then it's still 3 out of the 5 greatest defensive teams Kobe has faced.



You seriously think the amount of defensive attention that went into guarding Kobe those years is in the same ballpark as what Lebron has been thru his whole life?

I wonder how those teams would have guarded Kobe is they didn't have to worry about Shaq? That 38% Kobe shot in the finals in 04 might have been 28%. But in reality, they wouldn't even have made the playoffs without Shaq so it's a moot point.

BTW here is what Kobe said on the loss to the Pistons:


"When we got to Detroit," Bryant said, "they forced us to play our offense 94 feet. We weren't ready, and we couldn't do it, and everything capitulated from there.

"That sits with me because we should have won that."

"Easily," O'Neal chimes in. "Ben Wallace guarding me?"

To O'Neal's point, he averaged 26.6 points and 10.8 rebounds and shot 63.1 percent from the field (53-for-84). Bryant's numbers that series: 22.6 points on 38.1 percent shooting (43-for-113).

"See, the whole strategy was to move the pressure up," Bryant continued. "If you move the pressure up, it takes away Shaquille as a threat, 'cause now you think you have to harbor the ball up the court with the pressure on the perimeter.


The man himself admitting the strategy was to try and deny Shaq the ball due to his massive advantage over Ben Wallace, not to try and stop Kobe. Of course when Shaq got the ball, he was effective. This is the kind of attention Lebron has gotten his entire career. Kobe never had to deal with it until Shaq left.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:11 pm    Post subject:

There's a lot of reasons the 2003 04 Lakers failed, but it's also always been a reminder to me that a super team isn't necessarily a guarantee of success. In fact they're been a lot of super teams that didn't pan out. Sometimes less is more, and it can be better to have fewer stars that fit together well then to collect a lot of names.

You can certainly argue that 2003-04 was the most disappointing season in Laker history
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:30 pm    Post subject:

The Pistons 0f 2003-04 had given the warning with their defense that season. They had won easily on defense.

I know a lot of people put the blame on Kobe most of the time.
We all knew that they let Shaq play one on one with Big Ben while putting pressure mostly on Kobe.

The result was not pretty. Kobe shot 38 percent.

BUT HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE EVER NOTICED THAT THE REST OF THE TEAM'S COMBINED FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGE WAS EVEN WORSE THAN THAT OF KOBE'S? (THIS IS OF COURSE OUTSIDE SHAQ'S SOLE FIELD GOAL).

Dig more to find out. Dont get brainwashed by Kobe's haters.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject:

^
The Pistons were great defensive team but they were hardly a juggernaut. The Nets, who were nothing special, took them to 7 games in the second round.

As a Lakers fan, I still think of that as a sad season of what might have been rather than a season where we got beat by a demonstrably better opponent.

Te following year the Pistons were a great defensive team that got to the finals and lost, but they also had the seven round series earlier in the playoffs. Even in hindsight, I don't think of the Pistons as an inevitable ring team that year. I think there were several teams that could have won just as easily. But give them credit ... they did it
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:04 pm    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
.

BUT HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE EVER NOTICED THAT THE REST OF THE TEAM'S COMBINED FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGE WAS EVEN WORSE THAN THAT OF KOBE'S? (THIS IS OF COURSE OUTSIDE SHAQ'S SOLE FIELD GOAL).

.



You mean the 2 best players on the team shot better percentage wise than the rest of the team? Shocking!
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:37 pm    Post subject:

Batguano wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Batguano wrote:

Honestly, I would argue that 2011 Mavericks over Heatles is an even bigger upset. The Pistons are in hindsight considered one of the greatest if not THE greatest defensive team of all time.



The funny thing is the Pistons weren't even the #1 defensive teamn in the NBA that year. The Spurs were, and we went through them pretty easily, but the Pistons pretty much made everyone on our team other than Shaq look like a division 2 college player. That series was a real clankfest.

Generally, I see both our loss to the Pistons and the Heat loss to Mavs listed as among the biggest upsets in NBA finals history. Our loss is generally a couple spots higher in the lists I've seen, but both tend to be in the top 5 of embarrassing losses. Even in hindsight, I don't have a strong sense of which was worse -- I think those series were a big blemish on both Kobe/Lakers and Lebron/Heat.

Batguano wrote:
Also the idea of what a Superteam is has changed over the years. And while Shaq, Kobe, Malone and Payton is certainly a Superteam, I think most people now in hindsight view them as an a team with aging pieces (kind of like how the Barkley, Drexler, Olajuwon Superteam is now viewed as past their prime when they got together), in comparison to the Superteams of this current era who are all in their primes (Heatles, Warriors, etc.). Not to mention they had key injuries (Malone), while the Heatles were completely healthy.


I haven't seen a lot of people make that distinction myself. In all the lists of NBA superteams I see, the Shaq/Kobe/Malone/Payton Lakers are right up there with the Lebron/Wade/Bosh Heat.

Is having two GOAT short-list guys in their prime with two aging Hall of Famers more or less super than one GOAT short-list guy in his prime, a top 25 guy in his prime, and a third Hall of Fame guy at a much lower tier than all the others? You could argue that one forever. (Heck, I'm not entirely sure that Lebron-Wade-Bosh were a stronger "superteam" than Shaq-Kobe alone from their second ring on.)

I consider them both superteams, but I don't have a strong sense on which one was more super. Both of them were sure two of the most hyped teams in NBA history.


Actually, post-Rasheed trade the Pistons are the greatest defensive team of all time when it comes to Defensive Rating. Post-Rasheed trade they had a DRTG of 90.9. For the entire year they were at 95.4 (good enough for 5th greatest all time)

https://i.imgur.com/izzwlMa.png

BTW, Kobe faced the 3 greatest defensive teams of all time (according to DRTG) in the 2004 Pistons, 2004 Spurs, and 2008 Celtics (two of them in the same playoffs). If you don't want to use the post-Rasheed trade qualifier then it's still 3 out of the 5 greatest defensive teams Kobe has faced.



One could say James faced the only 70+ win squad to not win the Larry O. Yeah, theyíll say Draymond was suspended (no different than Cís fan talking about no Perkins), but the Dub did have Draymond for 6 and 7.

Beating a 73 win team on the road cancels anything that happened in 2011. Hell, once Wade said itís your team in 2012, they went back to back.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:21 pm    Post subject:

All this talk of superteams, finals records....smh

Are we comparing two individuals or two teams?

Kobe is superior to Lebron as an individual basketball player, he's simply mastered the game in every way possible. That is no knock on bron, but we are talking about the best of the best and the bar is set very, very high. As Phil said, he set the bar high and Kobe jumped over it.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:23 am    Post subject:

Kyle Kuzma's top 5 by position

Magic
Jordan
Bron
Timmy D
Kareem
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J.C. Smith
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 10662

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:41 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Universally agreed list:
1. kareem
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Wilt
5. Shaq

what's there to argue


Definitely not universally agreed. For top all time Lakers I'd personally go with.

1. Magic
2. Kobe
3. Kareem (Only because his best years were elsewhere)

After that it's tough. Shaq's peak was phenomenal but only lasted a few years. Wilt, like Kareem played his best years with other teams. You can certainly make an argument for West and Baylor, as well.

Including all teams I'd put have my top three:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Kareem

After that there's a lot of players you can make an argument for. From old legends like Wilt, Big-O, and Russell, to guys like Bird, Dr. J, Olajuwon, to Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, and Lebron. Before it's all said and done I think Durant is going to be on that list, as well.
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