Barkley: Why are people moving Lebron past Kobe?
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Krispy Kreme
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:50 am    Post subject:

Lebron is soon to be 3-6 in the finals (yes, i think they will beat boston).

There's no way that 3-6 beats MJ's 6-0.. especially considering Lebron has had a stacked deck (talent wise) that he pretty much manufactured on his own. Twice. He's pretty much a mercenary, and he will leave the Cavs again this off-season in search of a super talented team.

MJ had a talented team, but it felt more organic. Bulls drafted/traded for Pippen, MJ was drafted by the Bulls.

Rodman was a FA, but he wasn't some superstar.

MJ's bulls teams never had a huge talent advantage over teams like the knicks, pacers, jazz, sonics, etc.

I think they just played really well in the triangle and were coached well.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:54 am    Post subject:

Kobe just had a really beautiful moment on the view that nearly made me tear up, hope that it's on youtube soon.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:30 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
governator wrote:
Universally agreed list:
1. kareem
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Wilt
5. Shaq

what's there to argue


Definitely not universally agreed. For top all time Lakers I'd personally go with.

1. Magic
2. Kobe
3. Kareem (Only because his best years were elsewhere)

After that it's tough. Shaq's peak was phenomenal but only lasted a few years. Wilt, like Kareem played his best years with other teams. You can certainly make an argument for West and Baylor, as well.

Including all teams I'd put have my top three:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Kareem

After that there's a lot of players you can make an argument for. From old legends like Wilt, Big-O, and Russell, to guys like Bird, Dr. J, Olajuwon, to Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, and Lebron. Before it's all said and done I think Durant is going to be on that list, as well.


Top lakers imo:

1. Kobe
2. Magic
3. Kareem
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:34 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Kobe just had a really beautiful moment on the view that nearly made me tear up, hope that it's on youtube soon.


Save your tears for when we either Resign or Let Go of Randle MJST! You'll be needing it then. 😁
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:37 am    Post subject:

I came to say Kobe would have had more success with this Cavs team vs the Celtics, but then I remember the 2012 OKC series and started to doubt my hot take... 😆
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Barkley: Why are people moving Lebron past Kobe?

NYClakerguy wrote:
MY man:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJCBv37EDOI

For anyone over the age of 25, do you agree the discussion about Lebron vs MJ is premature or has Lebron already superceded Kobe's impact on the game?


He certainly has proved he can bring cities (or at least one city) to its knees begging for his presence / return. He has proved that a guy can jump to a knew team, suck them dry to try and get a championship or two and leave for greener pastures and younger talent when they can't give you what you need. He has proven he can rack up assists but never actually make another player better.

He's obviously talented but I have a hard time respecting anybody who's pulled the things he has while not matching the championship count of the players he has "passed".


Last edited by vkewalra on Wed May 16, 2018 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject:

Krispy Kreme wrote:

MJ's bulls teams never had a huge talent advantage over teams like the knicks, pacers, jazz, sonics, etc.



No offense, but this literally made me laugh out loud.
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The Juggernaut
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:50 am    Post subject:

Krispy Kreme wrote:
Lebron is soon to be 3-6 in the finals (yes, i think they will beat boston).

There's no way that 3-6 beats MJ's 6-0.. especially considering Lebron has had a stacked deck (talent wise) that he pretty much manufactured on his own. Twice. He's pretty much a mercenary, and he will leave the Cavs again this off-season in search of a super talented team.

MJ had a talented team, but it felt more organic. Bulls drafted/traded for Pippen, MJ was drafted by the Bulls.

Rodman was a FA, but he wasn't some superstar.

MJ's bulls teams never had a huge talent advantage over teams like the knicks, pacers, jazz, sonics, etc.

I think they just played really well in the triangle and were coached well.


I agree with everything you said, especially the bolded. The media has rewritten history for Lebron to make it seem like he didnt have much help. Dude's had some of the most talented stacked teams ever and still lost in the finals 5x. Only 2007 he gets a slight pass
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:51 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Krispy Kreme wrote:

MJ's bulls teams never had a huge talent advantage over teams like the knicks, pacers, jazz, sonics, etc.



No offense, but this literally made me laugh out loud.


Not surprised, you're a Kobe hater and Lebron homer.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:52 am    Post subject:

The Juggernaut wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Krispy Kreme wrote:

MJ's bulls teams never had a huge talent advantage over teams like the knicks, pacers, jazz, sonics, etc.



No offense, but this literally made me laugh out loud.


Not surprised, you're a Kobe hater and Lebron homer.


This also made me laugh out loud. Literally.

Thank you for bringing some levity to my Wednesday. I truly appreciate it!
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:02 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Kobe Bryant vs LeBron James in the clutch(Playoffs)

I posted some clutch stats for the playoffs, and I decided to do some more.

I was criticized for using five minutes and margin of five, people also told me to add playmaking as part of the equation.

I do admit creating for your teammates is a huge factor in clutch situations, so I decided to add assists per 36 and turnovers per 36.

"Clutch" is 2 minutes left with margin of 3 in playoffs,

I will be only talking about Lebron and Kobe, considering these two were heads and shoulders beyond everyone else for their efficiency and volume.

Playoffs:

Lebron
    He is 40/106 in clutch situation
    His free throw shooting is 49/67
    True Shooting is, 49.8%
    Assist per 36: 4.2 assists
    Turnovers per 36: 4.2 turnovers

Kobe
    He is 40/96 in clutch situations.
    His free throw shooting is 67/79
    His true shooting is 58 %
    Assists per 36: 4.3 assists
    Turnovers per 36: 1.7 turnovers

Finals: Last 2 minutes, margin of 3.

Lebron
    He is 4/23 in clutch situations
    His free throw shooting is 10/14
    His true shooting is 31%
    Assists per 36: 3.7 assists
    TO per 36: 3.7 TO

Kobe
    He is 10/20 in clutch situations
    His free throw shooting is 4/5
    His true shooting is 56.4%
    Assists per 36: 7.5 assists
    TO per 36: 1.5 TO

Finals: Last 5 minutes, margin of 5.

Lebron
    17/62 in clutch situations in the finals.
    32% EFG
    43% TS.
    Assists per 36: 4.26
    TO per 36: 3.1

Kobe
    28/63 in clutch situations in the finals.
    46% EFG
    53% TS.
    Assists per 36: 3.6
    TO per 36: 1.08


Tbh, I wasn't surprised about the field goals considering Kobe is the much better shooter in the playoffs, but I was shocked to see Kobe as the better playmaker and distributor in crunch time.

Thoughts?

Edit: all sources are from NBA.com
https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6lhlcj/kobe_vs_lebron_in_clutch_situations/



Post from there. Something to think about


Great (bleep) post right here.
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The Juggernaut
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Assuming that those stats are real (there are a lot of fake stats out on places like Reddit, so you never know), what they tell me is that neither of them were impressive in "clutch" situations (as the poster defines them), but that Lebron was more unimpressive than Kobe. That's generally consistent with what I would have expected. The idea that Kobe was magically clutch in big games has been debunked before. However, the idea that Lebron has been less than stellar at the end of big games is fairly well documented.





You and Activeverb are ridiculous. Truly unbelievable. Borderline trollish
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governator
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:08 am    Post subject:

LeBron has the strongest teammates, he’s the first one who pick and choose his super teams (got Ray Allen to jump ship from another super team)
Kobe had Shaq for the 1st half of his career including a year of Malone/Payton then a year of Pau/Dwight/Nash, although both Kobe’s super teams were old and injured
MJ had Pippen then Rodman and Kukoc, in the era of no super teams (unless you wanna count Barkley joining Hakeem/Clyde)

In the end 6 > 5 > 3 between these guys
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:28 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
LeBron has the strongest teammates, he’s the first one who pick and choose his super teams (got Ray Allen to jump ship from another super team)
Kobe had Shaq for the 1st half of his career including a year of Malone/Payton then a year of Pau/Dwight/Nash, although both Kobe’s super teams were old and injured
MJ had Pippen then Rodman and Kukoc, in the era of no super teams (unless you wanna count Barkley joining Hakeem/Clyde)

In the end 6 > 5 > 3 between these guys



For fun, here is one analysis of the supporting casts for all teams that made the finals from 1985 to 2015 based on statistical plus-minus. It's not the be-all and end-all, of course, but it has the advantages of coming from a respected source and not being based on just one person's subjective opinion.

A lot of it dovetails with common perceptions: Dirk and Hakeem won rings with weak supporting casts; MJ had great support during his second threepeat.

Since I know some of you are super-duper interested in Lebron, you'll find stuff here to both delight you (his 2011 loss to Miami was with the 4th best supporting cast for a finals loser) and to irritate you (he made several finals with some of the weakest supporting casts ever).

So for your reading pleasure or hate reading ...

https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=610&h=2028


Last edited by activeverb on Wed May 16, 2018 11:39 am; edited 2 times in total
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george w kush
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:30 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
LeBron has the strongest teammates, he’s the first one who pick and choose his super teams (got Ray Allen to jump ship from another super team)
Kobe had Shaq for the 1st half of his career including a year of Malone/Payton then a year of Pau/Dwight/Nash, although both Kobe’s super teams were old and injured
MJ had Pippen then Rodman and Kukoc, in the era of no super teams (unless you wanna count Barkley joining Hakeem/Clyde)

In the end 6 > 5 > 3 between these guys


Bill Russell

11 rings,

I guess he's better than Jordan, Kobe and LeBron. Great logic there.

BTW I love the way Kobe stans are now trying to insert Jordan into this thread. Last time I checked, the thread title didn't have Jordan in the name. I guess when the statistics(you know those numbers scouts, coaches,GMs, and the rest of the world use to actually use to evaluate a player) aren't in favor of the player you're trying to defend, bring up another guy out of nowhere who has more rings/similar statistics as Lebron to somehow try and degrade him.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:49 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
LeBron has the strongest teammates, he’s the first one who pick and choose his super teams (got Ray Allen to jump ship from another super team)
Kobe had Shaq for the 1st half of his career including a year of Malone/Payton then a year of Pau/Dwight/Nash, although both Kobe’s super teams were old and injured
MJ had Pippen then Rodman and Kukoc, in the era of no super teams (unless you wanna count Barkley joining Hakeem/Clyde)

In the end 6 > 5 > 3 between these guys



For fun, here is one analysis of the supporting casts for all teams that made the finals from 1985 to 2015 based on statistical plus-minus. It's not the be-all and end-all, of course, but it has the advantages of coming from a respected source and not being based on just one person's subjective opinion.

A lot of it dovetails with common perceptions: Dirk and Hakeem won rings with weak supporting casts; MJ had great support during his second threepeat.

Since I know some of you are super-duper interested in Lebron, you'll find stuff here to both delight you (his 2011 loss to Miami was with the 4th best supporting cast for a finals loser) and to irritate you (he made several finals with some of the weakest supporting casts ever).

So for your reading pleasure or hate reading ...

https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=610&h=2028


It shouldn’t irritate anybody the fact that LeBron has made it to the finals with some of the weakest teammates, the conferences strength has been imbalance in LeBron’s career so far. Do you have statistics on strength of east Gs west during Kobe and LeBron’s career?


Last edited by governator on Wed May 16, 2018 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:52 am    Post subject:

george w kush wrote:
governator wrote:
LeBron has the strongest teammates, he’s the first one who pick and choose his super teams (got Ray Allen to jump ship from another super team)
Kobe had Shaq for the 1st half of his career including a year of Malone/Payton then a year of Pau/Dwight/Nash, although both Kobe’s super teams were old and injured
MJ had Pippen then Rodman and Kukoc, in the era of no super teams (unless you wanna count Barkley joining Hakeem/Clyde)

In the end 6 > 5 > 3 between these guys


Bill Russell

11 rings,

I guess he's better than Jordan, Kobe and LeBron. Great logic there.

BTW I love the way Kobe stans are now trying to insert Jordan into this thread. Last time I checked, the thread title didn't have Jordan in the name. I guess when the statistics(you know those numbers scouts, coaches,GMs, and the rest of the world use to actually use to evaluate a player) aren't in favor of the player you're trying to defend, bring up another guy out of nowhere who has more rings/similar statistics as Lebron to somehow try and degrade him.


It’s so irritating when people can’t contextualize arguments
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governator
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject:

george w kush wrote:
governator wrote:
LeBron has the strongest teammates, he’s the first one who pick and choose his super teams (got Ray Allen to jump ship from another super team)
Kobe had Shaq for the 1st half of his career including a year of Malone/Payton then a year of Pau/Dwight/Nash, although both Kobe’s super teams were old and injured
MJ had Pippen then Rodman and Kukoc, in the era of no super teams (unless you wanna count Barkley joining Hakeem/Clyde)

In the end 6 > 5 > 3 between these guys


Bill Russell

11 rings,

I guess he's better than Jordan, Kobe and LeBron. Great logic there.

BTW I love the way Kobe stans are now trying to insert Jordan into this thread. Last time I checked, the thread title didn't have Jordan in the name. I guess when the statistics(you know those numbers scouts, coaches,GMs, and the rest of the world use to actually use to evaluate a player) aren't in favor of the player you're trying to defend, bring up another guy out of nowhere who has more rings/similar statistics as Lebron to somehow try and degrade him.

Kobe-stan? Degrading LeBron? I’m just a Lakers fan who think Kobe and LeBron is neck and neck with Kobe being ahead and I want LeBron to sign with us this summer. Why are you bothered by me thinking Kobe is better than LeBron?
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:59 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
LeBron has the strongest teammates, he’s the first one who pick and choose his super teams (got Ray Allen to jump ship from another super team)
Kobe had Shaq for the 1st half of his career including a year of Malone/Payton then a year of Pau/Dwight/Nash, although both Kobe’s super teams were old and injured
MJ had Pippen then Rodman and Kukoc, in the era of no super teams (unless you wanna count Barkley joining Hakeem/Clyde)

In the end 6 > 5 > 3 between these guys



For fun, here is one analysis of the supporting casts for all teams that made the finals from 1985 to 2015 based on statistical plus-minus. It's not the be-all and end-all, of course, but it has the advantages of coming from a respected source and not being based on just one person's subjective opinion.

A lot of it dovetails with common perceptions: Dirk and Hakeem won rings with weak supporting casts; MJ had great support during his second threepeat.

Since I know some of you are super-duper interested in Lebron, you'll find stuff here to both delight you (his 2011 loss to Miami was with the 4th best supporting cast for a finals loser) and to irritate you (he made several finals with some of the weakest supporting casts ever).

So for your reading pleasure or hate reading ...

https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=610&h=2028


It shouldn’t irritate anybody the fact that LeBron has made it to the finals with some of the weakest teammates, the conferences strength has been imbalance in LeBron’s career so far.


You are under-estimating people's tendency to be irritated by any comment about Lebron that does portray him as the anti-Christ. I choose to find that amusing myself.

There would be some posters who act that way in both sides, the ones who think Kobe’s better and the ones who think LeBron’s better. Im sure you recognize that
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 12:49 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
LeBron has the strongest teammates, he’s the first one who pick and choose his super teams (got Ray Allen to jump ship from another super team)
Kobe had Shaq for the 1st half of his career including a year of Malone/Payton then a year of Pau/Dwight/Nash, although both Kobe’s super teams were old and injured
MJ had Pippen then Rodman and Kukoc, in the era of no super teams (unless you wanna count Barkley joining Hakeem/Clyde)

In the end 6 > 5 > 3 between these guys



For fun, here is one analysis of the supporting casts for all teams that made the finals from 1985 to 2015 based on statistical plus-minus. It's not the be-all and end-all, of course, but it has the advantages of coming from a respected source and not being based on just one person's subjective opinion.

A lot of it dovetails with common perceptions: Dirk and Hakeem won rings with weak supporting casts; MJ had great support during his second threepeat.

Since I know some of you are super-duper interested in Lebron, you'll find stuff here to both delight you (his 2011 loss to Miami was with the 4th best supporting cast for a finals loser) and to irritate you (he made several finals with some of the weakest supporting casts ever).

So for your reading pleasure or hate reading ...

https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=610&h=2028


It shouldn’t irritate anybody the fact that LeBron has made it to the finals with some of the weakest teammates, the conferences strength has been imbalance in LeBron’s career so far.


You are under-estimating people's tendency to be irritated by any comment about Lebron that does portray him as the anti-Christ. I choose to find that amusing myself.

There would be some posters who act that way in both sides, the ones who think Kobe’s better and the ones who think LeBron’s better. Im sure you recognize that


I'm pretty unemotional about this topic myself, and see it mostly as an left-brain exercise of analyzing stats and objective facts, which tends for some reason to irritate the Kobe camp more than the Lebron camp.

So my view on this is undoubtedly skewed because, to my ongoing bafflement, I am personally attacked by a few posters who have decided I am the president of the Lebron fan club and Kobe hate club.

In reality, I rate their overall careers/accomplishments as equivalent at this point, and I don't have any emotional investment in how they are ranked on the GOAT list. For me, both fall something between 4-8 (in a block that includes Shaq, Duncan and Bird), the specific order can change depending on my mood that day.


Last edited by activeverb on Wed May 16, 2018 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 12:52 pm    Post subject:

DangeRuss wrote:
george w kush wrote:
governator wrote:
LeBron has the strongest teammates, he’s the first one who pick and choose his super teams (got Ray Allen to jump ship from another super team)
Kobe had Shaq for the 1st half of his career including a year of Malone/Payton then a year of Pau/Dwight/Nash, although both Kobe’s super teams were old and injured
MJ had Pippen then Rodman and Kukoc, in the era of no super teams (unless you wanna count Barkley joining Hakeem/Clyde)

In the end 6 > 5 > 3 between these guys


Bill Russell

11 rings,

I guess he's better than Jordan, Kobe and LeBron. Great logic there.

BTW I love the way Kobe stans are now trying to insert Jordan into this thread. Last time I checked, the thread title didn't have Jordan in the name. I guess when the statistics(you know those numbers scouts, coaches,GMs, and the rest of the world use to actually use to evaluate a player) aren't in favor of the player you're trying to defend, bring up another guy out of nowhere who has more rings/similar statistics as Lebron to somehow try and degrade him.


It’s so irritating when people can’t contextualize arguments


It's the rule rather than the exception in these arguments, because it is mostly partisans who engage, and they aren't interested in learning anything they don't already believe.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
LeBron has the strongest teammates, he’s the first one who pick and choose his super teams (got Ray Allen to jump ship from another super team)
Kobe had Shaq for the 1st half of his career including a year of Malone/Payton then a year of Pau/Dwight/Nash, although both Kobe’s super teams were old and injured
MJ had Pippen then Rodman and Kukoc, in the era of no super teams (unless you wanna count Barkley joining Hakeem/Clyde)

In the end 6 > 5 > 3 between these guys



For fun, here is one analysis of the supporting casts for all teams that made the finals from 1985 to 2015 based on statistical plus-minus. It's not the be-all and end-all, of course, but it has the advantages of coming from a respected source and not being based on just one person's subjective opinion.

A lot of it dovetails with common perceptions: Dirk and Hakeem won rings with weak supporting casts; MJ had great support during his second threepeat.

Since I know some of you are super-duper interested in Lebron, you'll find stuff here to both delight you (his 2011 loss to Miami was with the 4th best supporting cast for a finals loser) and to irritate you (he made several finals with some of the weakest supporting casts ever).

So for your reading pleasure or hate reading ...

https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=610&h=2028


It shouldn’t irritate anybody the fact that LeBron has made it to the finals with some of the weakest teammates, the conferences strength has been imbalance in LeBron’s career so far.


You are under-estimating people's tendency to be irritated by any comment about Lebron that does portray him as the anti-Christ. I choose to find that amusing myself.

There would be some posters who act that way in both sides, the ones who think Kobe’s better and the ones who think LeBron’s better. Im sure you recognize that


I'm pretty unemotional about this topic myself, and see it mostly as an left-brain exercise of analyzing stats and objective facts, which tends for some reason to irritate the Kobe camp more than the Lebron camp.

So my view on this is undoubtedly skewed because, to my ongoing bafflement, I am personally attacked by a few posters who have decided I am the president of the Lebron fan club and Kobe hate club.

In reality, I rate their overall careers/accomplishments as equivalent at this point, and I don't have any emotional investment in how they are ranked on the GOAT list. For me, both fall something between 4-8 (in a block that includes Shaq, Duncan and Bird), the specific order can change depending on my mood that day.


Can’t argue with that, assuming you mean 1-3 is MJ, Kareem and Magic
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:13 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
LeBron has the strongest teammates, he’s the first one who pick and choose his super teams (got Ray Allen to jump ship from another super team)
Kobe had Shaq for the 1st half of his career including a year of Malone/Payton then a year of Pau/Dwight/Nash, although both Kobe’s super teams were old and injured
MJ had Pippen then Rodman and Kukoc, in the era of no super teams (unless you wanna count Barkley joining Hakeem/Clyde)

In the end 6 > 5 > 3 between these guys



For fun, here is one analysis of the supporting casts for all teams that made the finals from 1985 to 2015 based on statistical plus-minus. It's not the be-all and end-all, of course, but it has the advantages of coming from a respected source and not being based on just one person's subjective opinion.

A lot of it dovetails with common perceptions: Dirk and Hakeem won rings with weak supporting casts; MJ had great support during his second threepeat.

Since I know some of you are super-duper interested in Lebron, you'll find stuff here to both delight you (his 2011 loss to Miami was with the 4th best supporting cast for a finals loser) and to irritate you (he made several finals with some of the weakest supporting casts ever).

So for your reading pleasure or hate reading ...

https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=610&h=2028


It shouldn’t irritate anybody the fact that LeBron has made it to the finals with some of the weakest teammates, the conferences strength has been imbalance in LeBron’s career so far.


You are under-estimating people's tendency to be irritated by any comment about Lebron that does portray him as the anti-Christ. I choose to find that amusing myself.

There would be some posters who act that way in both sides, the ones who think Kobe’s better and the ones who think LeBron’s better. Im sure you recognize that


I'm pretty unemotional about this topic myself, and see it mostly as an left-brain exercise of analyzing stats and objective facts, which tends for some reason to irritate the Kobe camp more than the Lebron camp.

So my view on this is undoubtedly skewed because, to my ongoing bafflement, I am personally attacked by a few posters who have decided I am the president of the Lebron fan club and Kobe hate club.

In reality, I rate their overall careers/accomplishments as equivalent at this point, and I don't have any emotional investment in how they are ranked on the GOAT list. For me, both fall something between 4-8 (in a block that includes Shaq, Duncan and Bird), the specific order can change depending on my mood that day.


Can’t argue with that, assuming you mean 1-3 is MJ, Kareem and Magic



For me, 1 and 2 are MJ and Kareem, although sometimes I put Kareem as #1. Magic is 3.
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george w kush
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:20 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
george w kush wrote:
governator wrote:
LeBron has the strongest teammates, he’s the first one who pick and choose his super teams (got Ray Allen to jump ship from another super team)
Kobe had Shaq for the 1st half of his career including a year of Malone/Payton then a year of Pau/Dwight/Nash, although both Kobe’s super teams were old and injured
MJ had Pippen then Rodman and Kukoc, in the era of no super teams (unless you wanna count Barkley joining Hakeem/Clyde)

In the end 6 > 5 > 3 between these guys


Bill Russell

11 rings,

I guess he's better than Jordan, Kobe and LeBron. Great logic there.

BTW I love the way Kobe stans are now trying to insert Jordan into this thread. Last time I checked, the thread title didn't have Jordan in the name. I guess when the statistics(you know those numbers scouts, coaches,GMs, and the rest of the world use to actually use to evaluate a player) aren't in favor of the player you're trying to defend, bring up another guy out of nowhere who has more rings/similar statistics as Lebron to somehow try and degrade him.

Kobe-stan? Degrading LeBron? I’m just a Lakers fan who think Kobe and LeBron is neck and neck with Kobe being ahead and I want LeBron to sign with us this summer. Why are you bothered by me thinking Kobe is better than LeBron?



The second comment regarding Jordan/Lebon wasn't directed towards you, it was just a general point I was making regarding all of the Jordan insertion into the thread.

Any going by your logic, Bill Russell is the GOAT by far because he has as many rings as Kobe and Jordan combined, although you never hear his name as the GOAT because most people realize winning a ring is mostly determined by the quality of your teammates.

BTW I think it's hilarious people using Lebron leaving the Cavs the first time to go play with Wade is a bad thing. As if playing with Mo Williams as your second option was a better alternative? May I remind people Kobe requested a trade to the Bulls for the same reason because he felt management wasn't putting the right teammates around him. The Lakers lucked out in getting Gasol and drafting Bynum. Without these 2 guys, the team was a borderline playoff team and Kobe might have retired as a Bull instead of a Laker.
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:36 pm    Post subject:

george w kush wrote:


BTW I think it's hilarious people using Lebron leaving the Cavs the first time to go play with Wade is a bad thing. As if playing with Mo Williams as your second option was a better alternative? May I remind people Kobe requested a trade to the Bulls for the same reason because he felt management wasn't putting the right teammates around him. The Lakers lucked out in getting Gasol and drafting Bynum. Without these 2 guys, the team was a borderline playoff team and Kobe might have retired as a Bull instead of a Laker.



For some reason, a lot of fans think it's OK for a player to be lucky, but not smart. It's OK for Magic to be drafted onto a team that has Kareem and Wilkes; or for Bird to be drafted onto a team that surrounds him with Hall of Famers. But it's not OK for Durant or Lebron to use free agency to surround themselves with a comparable amount of talent.

Some of this is simply that fans tend to identify with owners, and they like the notion that players are as "loyal" to their teams as fans are, though I think most fans are accepting that's always been a fantasy Superstar movement is becoming so common that people will quickly stop thinking this is unusual or unfair, if they haven't already.

My personal view is that people will act in their own self-interest. If players stay with their current team, the only reason is it's good for them. If they leave, it's for the same reason. I don't think players really care what jersey they wear. There isn't anything ethical or moral about a player staying with or leaving his current team.
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