Kawhi Leonard to LA? (Math to Sign KL in 2019)
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OC Lakerfan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:51 am    Post subject:

Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
If I was Kawhi, I would show up to training camp and say "I'm saying this once and this one time only. My intention is to leave the San Antonio Spurs at the end of the season. Until the time I am traded or the season is over, I will ne a professional, I will meet the obligations of my contract to this team and I will give 110% for this team every time I step on the court. However, management knows my position and so it is up to them to decide what to do knowing I will no longer be a Spur under any circumstances after this season. That is all."


Why wait until training camp? He could likely get trade talks re-energized if he could show he is healthy and near the player he was. A “leaked” work out video would do wonders. Show us some lateral quickness and shooting drills. Doing sprints? And maybe more importantly the recovery time the next day.

Maybe I’m just too cynical but I’m thinking his injury is worse and more career altering then he is letting on. My biggest concern still remains a “healthy” Leonard will be enticing to trade for but a “healthy” Leonard may still have long term lingering effects.

How much are you giving up and then paying a diminished Leonard that misses significant time? The descriptions I have seen discuss risk of re-injury due to repeated use and intense activity. Like a long NBA season? Is he worth the risk if the 20 games he misses are the playoffs? Or if he rushes back for the playoffs too soon?

I need some evidence he still is and can still be the dynamic player we all remember before I am willing to risk valuable assets on the very real possibility he will never consistently be that player again.


Team USA Basketball camp starts July 25th. The evidence will be had there if Leonard shows up. 2 weeks!
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AllorNothing
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:59 am    Post subject:

OC Lakerfan wrote:
Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
If I was Kawhi, I would show up to training camp and say "I'm saying this once and this one time only. My intention is to leave the San Antonio Spurs at the end of the season. Until the time I am traded or the season is over, I will ne a professional, I will meet the obligations of my contract to this team and I will give 110% for this team every time I step on the court. However, management knows my position and so it is up to them to decide what to do knowing I will no longer be a Spur under any circumstances after this season. That is all."


Why wait until training camp? He could likely get trade talks re-energized if he could show he is healthy and near the player he was. A “leaked” work out video would do wonders. Show us some lateral quickness and shooting drills. Doing sprints? And maybe more importantly the recovery time the next day.

Maybe I’m just too cynical but I’m thinking his injury is worse and more career altering then he is letting on. My biggest concern still remains a “healthy” Leonard will be enticing to trade for but a “healthy” Leonard may still have long term lingering effects.

How much are you giving up and then paying a diminished Leonard that misses significant time? The descriptions I have seen discuss risk of re-injury due to repeated use and intense activity. Like a long NBA season? Is he worth the risk if the 20 games he misses are the playoffs? Or if he rushes back for the playoffs too soon?

I need some evidence he still is and can still be the dynamic player we all remember before I am willing to risk valuable assets on the very real possibility he will never consistently be that player again.


Team USA Basketball camp starts July 25th. The evidence will be had there if Leonard shows up. 2 weeks!

Is Popovich coaching?
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OC Lakerfan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:03 am    Post subject:

AllorNothing wrote:
OC Lakerfan wrote:
Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
If I was Kawhi, I would show up to training camp and say "I'm saying this once and this one time only. My intention is to leave the San Antonio Spurs at the end of the season. Until the time I am traded or the season is over, I will ne a professional, I will meet the obligations of my contract to this team and I will give 110% for this team every time I step on the court. However, management knows my position and so it is up to them to decide what to do knowing I will no longer be a Spur under any circumstances after this season. That is all."


Why wait until training camp? He could likely get trade talks re-energized if he could show he is healthy and near the player he was. A “leaked” work out video would do wonders. Show us some lateral quickness and shooting drills. Doing sprints? And maybe more importantly the recovery time the next day.

Maybe I’m just too cynical but I’m thinking his injury is worse and more career altering then he is letting on. My biggest concern still remains a “healthy” Leonard will be enticing to trade for but a “healthy” Leonard may still have long term lingering effects.

How much are you giving up and then paying a diminished Leonard that misses significant time? The descriptions I have seen discuss risk of re-injury due to repeated use and intense activity. Like a long NBA season? Is he worth the risk if the 20 games he misses are the playoffs? Or if he rushes back for the playoffs too soon?

I need some evidence he still is and can still be the dynamic player we all remember before I am willing to risk valuable assets on the very real possibility he will never consistently be that player again.


Team USA Basketball camp starts July 25th. The evidence will be had there if Leonard shows up. 2 weeks!

Is Popovich coaching?


Yep. It's a 2 day camp, so expect 2 days of solid rumors. lol

https://thebiglead.com/2018/07/09/kawhi-leonard-usa-basketball-popovich-lebron-durant/
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:07 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
I know you do not believe that....."not at all"? It would be a question in every press conference....every player would be asked daily....San Antonio is a small market that is not built to handle that type drama in my opinion.


No, I do believe it. Teams deal with distractions every season. The size of the market (more mid-sized than small) works in their favor. How much media frenzy can be sustained in San Antonio?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:08 am    Post subject:

In the last few days I get the impression the Lakers FO is very fond of the young core four. I think we could be moving on.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:11 am    Post subject:

Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
If I was Kawhi, I would show up to training camp and say "I'm saying this once and this one time only. My intention is to leave the San Antonio Spurs at the end of the season. Until the time I am traded or the season is over, I will ne a professional, I will meet the obligations of my contract to this team and I will give 110% for this team every time I step on the court. However, management knows my position and so it is up to them to decide what to do knowing I will no longer be a Spur under any circumstances after this season. That is all."


Why wait until training camp? He could likely get trade talks re-energized if he could show he is healthy and near the player he was. A “leaked” work out video would do wonders. Show us some lateral quickness and shooting drills. Doing sprints? And maybe more importantly the recovery time the next day.

Maybe I’m just too cynical but I’m thinking his injury is worse and more career altering then he is letting on. My biggest concern still remains a “healthy” Leonard will be enticing to trade for but a “healthy” Leonard may still have long term lingering effects.

How much are you giving up and then paying a diminished Leonard that misses significant time? The descriptions I have seen discuss risk of re-injury due to repeated use and intense activity. Like a long NBA season? Is he worth the risk if the 20 games he misses are the playoffs? Or if he rushes back for the playoffs too soon?

I need some evidence he still is and can still be the dynamic player we all remember before I am willing to risk valuable assets on the very real possibility he will never consistently be that player again.


Wouldn't you agree that nobody in the world has more actual data as it pertains to his injury than Kawhi himself (and his advisors)?

And, assuming any of the bad scenarios you described have any possibilities of happening, wouldn't it be much smarter to force Spurs hand into offering him a super-max (which he is eligible for this summer) instead of putting all potential earnings at risk?

That would be just dumb on his part
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:12 am    Post subject:

LBJ23 wrote:
Kobe wasn't going to be a free agent until like 2012. Lakers had time.


That’s a different consideration. We’re talking about the awkwardness and distraction from having Kobe on the team even after he demanded a trade. That was a much, much bigger deal than the Kawhi Leonard situation, and we just weathered it. Heck, we got off to a great start during the season.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:17 am    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
If I was Kawhi, I would show up to training camp and say "I'm saying this once and this one time only. My intention is to leave the San Antonio Spurs at the end of the season. Until the time I am traded or the season is over, I will ne a professional, I will meet the obligations of my contract to this team and I will give 110% for this team every time I step on the court. However, management knows my position and so it is up to them to decide what to do knowing I will no longer be a Spur under any circumstances after this season. That is all."


That’s the right way to do it, but it would require him to shut down his uncle and the other people talking to the media. If they keep talking, then it undercuts the professionalism strategy. Both media and sports fans know how that game is played.
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Harlemlakerfan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:23 am    Post subject:

I am completely fine with moving on from Kawhi. He either comes in 2019 as agent, or we will get some other max level star. I ain't Tripp'n over Kawhi. Screw the Spurs.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:25 am    Post subject:

32 wrote:
In the last few days I get the impression the Lakers FO is very fond of the young core four. I think we could be moving on.


Come on.... this is a star driven town.... I’m pretty sure magic has promised Lebron , he will put stars next to him... the rookies need not apply
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:25 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
adkindo wrote:
I know you do not believe that....."not at all"? It would be a question in every press conference....every player would be asked daily....San Antonio is a small market that is not built to handle that type drama in my opinion.


No, I do believe it. Teams deal with distractions every season. The size of the market (more mid-sized than small) works in their favor. How much media frenzy can be sustained in San Antonio?


San Antonio Metro area has less people than Sacramento Metro Area.

According last census 2.1M vs 2M people.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:26 am    Post subject:

clutchkobe wrote:
32 wrote:
In the last few days I get the impression the Lakers FO is very fond of the young core four. I think we could be moving on.


Come on.... this is a star driven town.... I’m pretty sure magic has promised Lebron , he will put stars next to him... the rookies need not apply


I think what people mean is moving on from trading for him.

I think we should try to roll with our guys until trading deadline to see what the young guys look like next to LBJ unless we can trade for him for peanuts.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:27 am    Post subject:

OC Lakerfan wrote:
clutchkobe wrote:
32 wrote:
In the last few days I get the impression the Lakers FO is very fond of the young core four. I think we could be moving on.


Come on.... this is a star driven town.... I’m pretty sure magic has promised Lebron , he will put stars next to him... the rookies need not apply


I think what people mean is moving on from trading for him.

I think we should try to roll with our guys until trading deadline to see what the young guys look like next to LBJ unless we can trade for him for peanuts.


Got it
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:27 am    Post subject:

golakersgo121 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
golakersgo121 wrote:
It is relatively easy - to relieve this pressure (both ways): Kawhi can keep going through with his "recovery process" on individual schedule.


That’s a disaster scenario for Leonard. He would hit free agency without playing regularly for two years. I can’t imagine any team offering him a long term max deal under those circumstances.


Not necessarily. It is a question of forcing an issue and see who blinks first. Teams always do - it is much greater risk for them, Spurs is no exception


I expect that the Spurs will wait until August or so, assess the various offers on the table, and then pick the one that they like best. The point I am making in these posts is that, as this drags on, Leonard will have a strong incentive to facilitate the process. Philadelphia may start to look like a more attractive destination as the process develops.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:29 am    Post subject:

gladofwar_xiii wrote:
I don't understand that ''Kawhi will sign us next summer anyway'' thing. If Kawhi joins Celtics or 76ers that team will get NBA finals easily and have good chance to beat Warriors. They would win atleast 2 games even if they lose but still people thinks he will leave that team (Celtics/76ers) and join Lakers. No man he won't and that means if Lakers give Ingram+Kuzma+Picks for Kawhi, it won't be just for one year. Just give these young guys seriously.


Sounds like something a spurs fan would say lol, why outbid yourself. It’s not the end of the world if we don’t get kawhi, he won’t be the only free agent on the market.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:35 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
golakersgo121 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
golakersgo121 wrote:
It is relatively easy - to relieve this pressure (both ways): Kawhi can keep going through with his "recovery process" on individual schedule.


That’s a disaster scenario for Leonard. He would hit free agency without playing regularly for two years. I can’t imagine any team offering him a long term max deal under those circumstances.


Not necessarily. It is a question of forcing an issue and see who blinks first. Teams always do - it is much greater risk for them, Spurs is no exception


I expect that the Spurs will wait until August or so, assess the various offers on the table, and then pick the one that they like best. The point I am making in these posts is that, as this drags on, Leonard will have a strong incentive to facilitate the process. Philadelphia may start to look like a more attractive destination as the process develops.


I agree on everything above - not sure about Philly part though. But it's possible

I was only talking about a possibility "Kawhi at the Spurs TC" which I consider unlikely...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:38 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LBJ23 wrote:
Kobe wasn't going to be a free agent until like 2012. Lakers had time.


That’s a different consideration. We’re talking about the awkwardness and distraction from having Kobe on the team even after he demanded a trade. That was a much, much bigger deal than the Kawhi Leonard situation, and we just weathered it. Heck, we got off to a great start during the season.


Kobe was still on speaking terms with Dr Buss. And he told Kobe we can't get equal value for you. He met with him in Spain. They don't have a Dr Buss in San Antonio.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:57 am    Post subject:

DeeAgeaux wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
adkindo wrote:
I know you do not believe that....."not at all"? It would be a question in every press conference....every player would be asked daily....San Antonio is a small market that is not built to handle that type drama in my opinion.


No, I do believe it. Teams deal with distractions every season. The size of the market (more mid-sized than small) works in their favor. How much media frenzy can be sustained in San Antonio?


San Antonio Metro area has less people than Sacramento Metro Area.

According last census 2.1M vs 2M people.


Metro areas can be misleading in Texas and a lot of other sunbelt locations. Basically, there is a corridor that runs down I-35 from Georgetown or Round Rock in the north, through Austin, through San Marcos, through San Antonio. There are about 4 million people in the corridor. San Antonio is the largest city in the corridor, but people from up the corridor can and do travel to Spurs games and watch the Spurs on local TV.

This is why NFL and MLB teams occasionally make noises about moving to San Antonio. It is a bigger market than you would think from looking at the metro area data.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:57 am    Post subject:

Andre2K wrote:
gladofwar_xiii wrote:
I don't understand that ''Kawhi will sign us next summer anyway'' thing. If Kawhi joins Celtics or 76ers that team will get NBA finals easily and have good chance to beat Warriors. They would win atleast 2 games even if they lose but still people thinks he will leave that team (Celtics/76ers) and join Lakers. No man he won't and that means if Lakers give Ingram+Kuzma+Picks for Kawhi, it won't be just for one year. Just give these young guys seriously.


Sounds like something a spurs fan would say lol, why outbid yourself. It’s not the end of the world if we don’t get kawhi, he won’t be the only free agent on the market.


Hell will freeze over before the Lakers trade Kuzma, Ingram and picks for a player we could pick up next summer without having to give up any of those guys.

Come on now...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:22 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
DeeAgeaux wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
adkindo wrote:
I know you do not believe that....."not at all"? It would be a question in every press conference....every player would be asked daily....San Antonio is a small market that is not built to handle that type drama in my opinion.


No, I do believe it. Teams deal with distractions every season. The size of the market (more mid-sized than small) works in their favor. How much media frenzy can be sustained in San Antonio?


San Antonio Metro area has less people than Sacramento Metro Area.

According last census 2.1M vs 2M people.


Metro areas can be misleading in Texas and a lot of other sunbelt locations. Basically, there is a corridor that runs down I-35 from Georgetown or Round Rock in the north, through Austin, through San Marcos, through San Antonio. There are about 4 million people in the corridor. San Antonio is the largest city in the corridor, but people from up the corridor can and do travel to Spurs games and watch the Spurs on local TV.

This is why NFL and MLB teams occasionally make noises about moving to San Antonio. It is a bigger market than you would think from looking at the metro area data.



The entire Deep South's baseball fans follow the Atlanta Braves and travel to watch games in Atlanta. Doesn't mean the entire Deep South is part of the Atlanta market.

The entire Rocky Mountain West is Denver Bronco fan territory. And people in this area do travel to watch games in Denver. Doesn't mean the entire Rocky Mountain West is part of the Denver market.

Areas with highly dense populations of Lakers fans stretch from Hawaii to Las Vegas from Fresno to the Mexican border. And people do travel to Staples to watch games. Doesn't mean the LA market covers that territory.

What it means is that very successful sports franchises can stretch fans base areas out where there are no direct competitors in the form of other league teams.

The Weber led Kings in the aughties also pulled in fans from the Bay Area. SF Oakland and San Jose are not part of the Sacramento market.

There is a reason NFL and MLB don't move to San Antonio or Sacramento. They may use them as leverage to get better deals from their current city but don't actually want to move there.

The NBA is kinda unique in that it has so many places like Sacramento, San Antonio, and Orlando. Small market teams successful despite their being large market direct competitors in their State.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:25 am    Post subject:

GTL wrote:
Andre2K wrote:
gladofwar_xiii wrote:
I don't understand that ''Kawhi will sign us next summer anyway'' thing. If Kawhi joins Celtics or 76ers that team will get NBA finals easily and have good chance to beat Warriors. They would win atleast 2 games even if they lose but still people thinks he will leave that team (Celtics/76ers) and join Lakers. No man he won't and that means if Lakers give Ingram+Kuzma+Picks for Kawhi, it won't be just for one year. Just give these young guys seriously.


Sounds like something a spurs fan would say lol, why outbid yourself. It’s not the end of the world if we don’t get kawhi, he won’t be the only free agent on the market.


Hell will freeze over before the Lakers trade Kuzma, Ingram and picks for a player we could pick up next summer without having to give up any of those guys.

Come on now...


Correct


Magic saidnitbeould be a two summer process. Got bron this summer can watch the youth grow this year and get another star next summer
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:26 am    Post subject:

twisted wrote:
gladofwar_xiii wrote:

Why y'all thinking about his health? Even if he is not healthy now, he will be healthy after 1-2 months right? If you have Lebron, season starts at playoffs and he will be healthy enough on playoffs.


This is Myotosis Ossificans, the injury Kawhi's docs believe he has:

https://www.centralphysicaltherapy.com/Injuries-Conditions/Muscle-Injury/Muscle-Injury-Issues/Myositis-Ossificans/a~8610/article.html

Some highlights to the article as to how it lines up with Kawhi's saga:

Quad Injury Announced Feb. 7, 2017:

MO occurs in the skeletal muscles of the body, and most often in the large muscles of the upper and lower extremities, such as the biceps of the upper arm or the quadriceps muscle of the thigh

Returned to play in the Play-offs:

There are a few factors that increase the likelihood of MO forming. These include having sustained a more severe injury, a severe loss of range of motion after the injury, injuries that are massaged too aggressively early on in their healing, injuries that are subject to aggressive activity before they are ready, and injuries that get re-injured before they have fully healed.

Because MO is not considered to have arisen until actual bone formation (calcification) has occurred, MO is generally not diagnosed until a minimum of 2 weeks after an injury, as this is the least amount of time it takes for bone formation to occur and to be seen on plain x-ray.

Sep. 30 Spurs announce diagnosis of Tendinopathy:


Leading up to the bone formation, the symptoms of MO present initially as the typical symptoms of a muscle injury, and include pain, a limited range of motion, weakness, and bruising in the area or down the limb.

November 2017 Pop expects Kawhi to be back "sooner rather than later"
December 2017 Kawhi is still complaining of weakness:


By the time bone formation has occurred, symptoms may include...weakness of the muscle, and ongoing pain.

Jan. 2018 Kawhi seeks medical opinion outside Spurs:

MO can develop due to poor or aggressive care of an injury,

and is shut down for the season:

Rest from aggravating activities will be an important part of treatment...will advise you against any activity that brings on pain.

May 2018.Rumors that Pop wants Kawhi to play 10 games before offering Supermax:

Over time the body usually either naturally reabsorbs the boney tissue that has formed or the boney tissue remains present but full range of motion and strength is gained and the body just works around the now permanent boney tissue within the muscle. In some unfortunate cases, despite appropriate rehabilitation, pain in the muscle remains and range of motion and strength cannot be progressed....surgical treatment will need to be considered


Sounds irreversible. A healthy Kawhi at 26 should command a BI+Kuz+1st rd pick(s) but that’s not the case. This sounds like a scary condition. Know any other athletes that have this condition in the past to compare?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:28 am    Post subject:

KL Nightmare continues.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:28 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
twisted wrote:
gladofwar_xiii wrote:

Why y'all thinking about his health? Even if he is not healthy now, he will be healthy after 1-2 months right? If you have Lebron, season starts at playoffs and he will be healthy enough on playoffs.


This is Myotosis Ossificans, the injury Kawhi's docs believe he has:

https://www.centralphysicaltherapy.com/Injuries-Conditions/Muscle-Injury/Muscle-Injury-Issues/Myositis-Ossificans/a~8610/article.html

Some highlights to the article as to how it lines up with Kawhi's saga:

Quad Injury Announced Feb. 7, 2017:

MO occurs in the skeletal muscles of the body, and most often in the large muscles of the upper and lower extremities, such as the biceps of the upper arm or the quadriceps muscle of the thigh

Returned to play in the Play-offs:

There are a few factors that increase the likelihood of MO forming. These include having sustained a more severe injury, a severe loss of range of motion after the injury, injuries that are massaged too aggressively early on in their healing, injuries that are subject to aggressive activity before they are ready, and injuries that get re-injured before they have fully healed.

Because MO is not considered to have arisen until actual bone formation (calcification) has occurred, MO is generally not diagnosed until a minimum of 2 weeks after an injury, as this is the least amount of time it takes for bone formation to occur and to be seen on plain x-ray.

Sep. 30 Spurs announce diagnosis of Tendinopathy:


Leading up to the bone formation, the symptoms of MO present initially as the typical symptoms of a muscle injury, and include pain, a limited range of motion, weakness, and bruising in the area or down the limb.

November 2017 Pop expects Kawhi to be back "sooner rather than later"
December 2017 Kawhi is still complaining of weakness:


By the time bone formation has occurred, symptoms may include...weakness of the muscle, and ongoing pain.

Jan. 2018 Kawhi seeks medical opinion outside Spurs:

MO can develop due to poor or aggressive care of an injury,

and is shut down for the season:

Rest from aggravating activities will be an important part of treatment...will advise you against any activity that brings on pain.

May 2018.Rumors that Pop wants Kawhi to play 10 games before offering Supermax:

Over time the body usually either naturally reabsorbs the boney tissue that has formed or the boney tissue remains present but full range of motion and strength is gained and the body just works around the now permanent boney tissue within the muscle. In some unfortunate cases, despite appropriate rehabilitation, pain in the muscle remains and range of motion and strength cannot be progressed....surgical treatment will need to be considered


Sounds irreversible. A healthy Kawhi at 26 should command a BI+Kuz+1st rd pick(s) but that’s not the case. This sounds like a scary condition. Know any other athletes that have this condition in the past to compare?


A healthy KL wouldn't require that on an expiring contract though
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:40 am    Post subject:

DeeAgeaux wrote:
The entire Deep South's baseball fans follow the Atlanta Braves and travel to watch games in Atlanta. Doesn't mean the entire Deep South is part of the Atlanta market.


No, that is exactly what it means. Your market is where your customers are.
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