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ShowtimeReturns Star Player
Joined: 21 Oct 2017 Posts: 1065
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Mini Mamba wrote: | Does anybody else think Kawhi could be the next Derrick Rose? |
What if the injury is more serious than anybody thought Isaiah Thomas comes to mind The risk is not worth giving up Ingram and Kuzma imo |
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Mini Mamba Star Player
Joined: 06 May 2013 Posts: 6006
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:12 am Post subject: |
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What do you guys think is more likely?
Ingram and Kuzma reaching their potential? Or Kawhi returning back to pre-injury form and staying healthy long term? |
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Chronicle Retired Number
Joined: 21 Jul 2012 Posts: 31930 Location: Manhattan
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:13 am Post subject: |
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Only way I'd trade for kawhi is if it includes deng. _________________ Kobe |
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Inspector Gadget Retired Number
Joined: 18 Apr 2016 Posts: 46490
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Jordan-esque Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Aug 2005 Posts: 10262
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:20 am Post subject: |
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ShowtimeReturns wrote: | Mini Mamba wrote: | Does anybody else think Kawhi could be the next Derrick Rose? |
What if the injury is more serious than anybody thought Isaiah Thomas comes to mind The risk is not worth giving up Ingram and Kuzma imo |
Could be even worst, Brandon Roy worst.
https://www.drdavidgeier.com/kawhi-leonard-quadriceps-tendinopathy/
Quote: | Leonard, widely felt to be one of the five best players in the NBA, has missed almost all season with quadriceps tendinopathy in his knee. This injury consists of a small area within the quadriceps tendon just above the kneecap developing some degeneration. Usually rest, ice and physical therapy work to help a player recover and return to play. Sometimes the normal treatments just don’t work. |
https://www.si.com/si-wire/2011/12/09/report-brandon-roy-to-retire-due-to-degenerative-knees
Quote: | Portland Trail Blazers guard Brandon Roy will announce his retirement as soon as today due to degenerative knees. |
_________________
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PHILosophize Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2012 Posts: 10758
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Mini Mamba wrote: | What do you guys think is more likely?
Ingram and Kuzma reaching their potential? Or Kawhi returning back to pre-injury form and staying healthy long term? |
depends on what you consider their potential to be
more likely for Kawhi to return to form or for one or both of Ingram/Koozy to make an all-star team?
I say the former if that's the case _________________ one dog goes that way the other dog goes the other way |
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Inspector Gadget Retired Number
Joined: 18 Apr 2016 Posts: 46490
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Max Kellerman thinks Kawhi is Laker bound |
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DMAULS Starting Rotation
Joined: 07 Jul 2014 Posts: 296
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Inspector Gadget wrote: | Max Kellerman thinks Kawhi is Laker bound |
Kellerman needs to stick to boxing. |
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scooterp10 Starting Rotation
Joined: 04 Oct 2016 Posts: 961
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Mini Mamba wrote: | What do you guys think is more likely?
Ingram and Kuzma reaching their potential? Or Kawhi returning back to pre-injury form and staying healthy long term? |
Ingram and Kuzma |
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Sentient Meat Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014 Posts: 12978
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Mini Mamba wrote: | What do you guys think is more likely?
Ingram and Kuzma reaching their potential? Or Kawhi returning back to pre-injury form and staying healthy long term? |
Do I think Kawhi capable of sustaining his career averages of 16PPG 6 RPG and 2 APG.... yes.
Do I think of Ingram capable of improving on his 2nd year averages of 16 PPG
5 RPG and 4 APG... yes
Do I think of Kuzma capable of improving on his rookie averages of 16 PPG 6 RPG and 2 APG... yes.
Do I think Ingram and Kuzma capable of becoming defensive player of the years? Not likely
Do I think Kawhi capable of sustaining DPOY performances with a bad quad? less likely
Do I think BI and Kuzma are capable of narrowing the vast chasm between their defensive abilities and Kawhi's? Yes. Especially Ingram.
Do I think Kawhi will ultimately be able to replace the production of two eventual 20 PPG 8 RPG players? No.
This isn't trading Dave Meyers or Junior Bridgeman or Brian Winters for Kareem... Kareem was a 32 PPG 16 RPG type player when he was traded
This is trading 2 16 PPG players who will eventually be 20 PPG players for another player whose ceiling is 25... and average is 16.
They... are... already... more... productive... offensively... than Kawhi was at the same age.
And this is a best case scenario only losing two. We will probably lose Randle as well. And a draft pick who could be Mitchell Robinson or Anfernee Simons.
What the f are we doing people? |
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ElginBaylor Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 10772 Location: Hoosier Nation
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Sentient Meat wrote: | Mini Mamba wrote: | What do you guys think is more likely?
Ingram and Kuzma reaching their potential? Or Kawhi returning back to pre-injury form and staying healthy long term? |
Do I think Kawhi capable of sustaining his career averages of 16PPG 6 RPG and 2 APG.... yes.
Do I think of Ingram capable of improving on his 2nd year averages of 16 PPG
5 RPG and 4 APG... yes
Do I think of Kuzma capable of improving on his rookie averages of 16 PPG 6 RPG and 2 APG... yes.
Do I think Ingram and Kuzma capable of becoming defensive player of the years? Not likely
Do I think Kawhi capable of sustaining DPOY performances with a bad quad? less likely
Do I think BI and Kuzma are capable of narrowing the vast chasm between their defensive abilities and Kawhi's? Yes. Especially Ingram.
Do I think Kawhi will ultimately be able to replace the production of two eventual 20 PPG 8 RPG players? No.
This isn't trading Dave Meyers or Junior Bridgeman or Brian Winters for Kareem... Kareem was a 32 PPG 16 RPG type player when he was traded
This is trading 2 16 PPG players who will eventually be 20 PPG players for another player whose ceiling is 25... and average is 16.
They... are... already... more... productive... offensively... than Kawhi was at the same age.
And this is a best case scenario only losing two. We will probably lose Randle as well. And a draft pick who could be Mitchell Robinson or Anfernee Simons.
What the f are we doing people? |
This. _________________ Not a legend |
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HAWAIIGUY27 Star Player
Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 2338 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Guys, I know we're all excited by the Kawhi news right now but..
Ball/#25*/Caruso
George/Hart
Ingram/Carter**/Mykhailiuk
James/Kuzma/Deng
Lopez/Zubac/Bryant
*DiVincenzo, Allen, Huerter (move to SG)
**or Babbitt, Afflalo
...would still be a damn good roster and probably a Top 4 team in the West. Being that LBJ and PG seem likely, we're in pretty good shape. |
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ElginBaylor Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 10772 Location: Hoosier Nation
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Any trade for KL probably would require letting go of Kuz or Ingram. It should not, however, include both. That would be ridiculous. _________________ Not a legend |
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scooterp10 Starting Rotation
Joined: 04 Oct 2016 Posts: 961
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:43 am Post subject: |
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Sentient Meat wrote: | Mini Mamba wrote: | What do you guys think is more likely?
Ingram and Kuzma reaching their potential? Or Kawhi returning back to pre-injury form and staying healthy long term? |
Do I think Kawhi capable of sustaining his career averages of 16PPG 6 RPG and 2 APG.... yes.
Do I think of Ingram capable of improving on his 2nd year averages of 16 PPG
5 RPG and 4 APG... yes
Do I think of Kuzma capable of improving on his rookie averages of 16 PPG 6 RPG and 2 APG... yes.
Do I think Ingram and Kuzma capable of becoming defensive player of the years? Not likely
Do I think Kawhi capable of sustaining DPOY performances with a bad quad? less likely
Do I think BI and Kuzma are capable of narrowing the vast chasm between their defensive abilities and Kawhi's? Yes. Especially Ingram.
Do I think Kawhi will ultimately be able to replace the production of two eventual 20 PPG 8 RPG players? No.
This isn't trading Dave Meyers or Junior Bridgeman or Brian Winters for Kareem... Kareem was a 32 PPG 16 RPG type player when he was traded
This is trading 2 16 PPG players who will eventually be 20 PPG players for another player whose ceiling is 25... and average is 16.
They... are... already... more... productive... offensively... than Kawhi was at the same age.
And this is a best case scenario only losing two. We will probably lose Randle as well. And a draft pick who could be Mitchell Robinson or Anfernee Simons.
What the f are we doing people? |
Yup it’s stupid |
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ShowtimeReturns Star Player
Joined: 21 Oct 2017 Posts: 1065
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Sentient Meat wrote: | Mini Mamba wrote: | What do you guys think is more likely?
Ingram and Kuzma reaching their potential? Or Kawhi returning back to pre-injury form and staying healthy long term? |
Do I think Kawhi capable of sustaining his career averages of 16PPG 6 RPG and 2 APG.... yes.
Do I think of Ingram capable of improving on his 2nd year averages of 16 PPG
5 RPG and 4 APG... yes
Do I think of Kuzma capable of improving on his rookie averages of 16 PPG 6 RPG and 2 APG... yes.
Do I think Ingram and Kuzma capable of becoming defensive player of the years? Not likely
Do I think Kawhi capable of sustaining DPOY performances with a bad quad? less likely
Do I think BI and Kuzma are capable of narrowing the vast chasm between their defensive abilities and Kawhi's? Yes. Especially Ingram.
Do I think Kawhi will ultimately be able to replace the production of two eventual 20 PPG 8 RPG players? No.
This isn't trading Dave Meyers or Junior Bridgeman or Brian Winters for Kareem... Kareem was a 32 PPG 16 RPG type player when he was traded
This is trading 2 16 PPG players who will eventually be 20 PPG players for another player whose ceiling is 25... and average is 16.
They... are... already... more... productive... offensively... than Kawhi was at the same age.
And this is a best case scenario only losing two. We will probably lose Randle as well. And a draft pick who could be Mitchell Robinson or Anfernee Simons.
What the f are we doing people? |
Completely agree the asking price is going to be way to high and who knows if that injury is going to be an ongoing situation On to the original plan pursue Lebron and PG and keeping ALL the young guns |
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€H£M£$TR¥ Star Player
Joined: 03 Apr 2017 Posts: 3782
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:46 am Post subject: |
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Grass is green af on our side. Kawhi might kill it on his come back, but I really don’t want to see Kuz and BI in SA; not with as much work as those two have been putting in. They are the foundation. _________________ DEAR BASKETBALL |
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LongBeachPoly Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012 Posts: 16018
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:47 am Post subject: |
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pjiddy wrote: | LongBeachPoly wrote: | pjiddy wrote: |
Yeah, no thank you. This is the type of thing that can set you back a decade. If Kawhi is never fully healthy again, and Lebron and/or PG do short contracts....that's catastrophic. 5 years of tanking and lotto picks all gone. And we'd likely be out some future draft picks from unloading Deng and/or trading for Kawhi. This is Brooklyn Nets territory.
Honestly this seems more risky than signing Boogie off his achilles. At least that would be a shorter deal and cost less (if any) assets. |
Why would we lose 5 yrs of tanking in a trade for Kawhi?
2014 - Julius Randle - restricted free agent
2015 - Dlo - already traded to Nets
2016 - Ingram
2017 - Lonzo + Kuzma
2018 - lost draft pick to Philly in Nash trade |
Randle - renounced to fit Kawhi
DLO - traded to create cap space
Ingram/Lonzo/Kuzma/Hart - between trading Kawhi and dumping Deng, 3 of these guys are gone
2019 pick - probably moved in Deng trade
2021 pick - moved in Deng or Kawhi trade
If Lebron and PG sign short deals and find themselves on roster of journeymen and a perpetually injured Kawhi...they could both be gone. What's left on this roster? |
1) If we’re trading for Kawhi, why would we need to renounce Randle?
2) Dlo was traded for cap space. How does that tie into Kawhi? Dlo was traded last yr. Kawhi just became available. How does one tie into the other?
3) How does dumping Deng tie into Kawhi? Why would u need to dump Deng to trade for Kawhi?
4) How is the 2019 n 2021 picks a part of tanking if they r projected to be late first rd picks? And how does dumping Deng tie into trading for Kawhi? And initially u said 5 yrs of tanking gone - that’s 2014-2018 right? Are we now including 2019 n 2021 as tanking yrs as well?
5) If we don’t trade for Kawhi, haven’t we already lost 2 tanking yrs? 2015 n 2018? Those assets r gone.
Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:05 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Mini Mamba Star Player
Joined: 06 May 2013 Posts: 6006
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:50 am Post subject: |
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ShowtimeReturns wrote: | Sentient Meat wrote: | Mini Mamba wrote: | What do you guys think is more likely?
Ingram and Kuzma reaching their potential? Or Kawhi returning back to pre-injury form and staying healthy long term? |
Do I think Kawhi capable of sustaining his career averages of 16PPG 6 RPG and 2 APG.... yes.
Do I think of Ingram capable of improving on his 2nd year averages of 16 PPG
5 RPG and 4 APG... yes
Do I think of Kuzma capable of improving on his rookie averages of 16 PPG 6 RPG and 2 APG... yes.
Do I think Ingram and Kuzma capable of becoming defensive player of the years? Not likely
Do I think Kawhi capable of sustaining DPOY performances with a bad quad? less likely
Do I think BI and Kuzma are capable of narrowing the vast chasm between their defensive abilities and Kawhi's? Yes. Especially Ingram.
Do I think Kawhi will ultimately be able to replace the production of two eventual 20 PPG 8 RPG players? No.
This isn't trading Dave Meyers or Junior Bridgeman or Brian Winters for Kareem... Kareem was a 32 PPG 16 RPG type player when he was traded
This is trading 2 16 PPG players who will eventually be 20 PPG players for another player whose ceiling is 25... and average is 16.
They... are... already... more... productive... offensively... than Kawhi was at the same age.
And this is a best case scenario only losing two. We will probably lose Randle as well. And a draft pick who could be Mitchell Robinson or Anfernee Simons.
What the f are we doing people? |
Completely agree the asking price is going to be way to high and who knows if that injury is going to be an ongoing situation On to the original plan pursue Lebron and PG and keeping ALL the young guns |
Hopefully this is what Magic and Rob are thinking and plan on doing this summer. |
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pjiddy Retired Number
Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 29016
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:03 am Post subject: |
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Wildchild027 wrote: | pjiddy wrote: | BTW, between the four conference final teams, Gerald Green was the only "vet minimum" guy. So i'm not sure the "vet min ring chaser" market is as robust as we'd like to imagine it. |
The vet min for David West isn't 800 K, it's 1.4 million. Javele McGee made that amount, as well as LMAM. Derrick Rose and Jeff Green also made that amount for the Cavs. |
GOod to know. All the salary cap projections I've seen have slots for 800k. So how 1.4 mil guys affect that situation? |
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golakersgo121 Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 11717 Location: 8 miles from Staples Center
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:05 am Post subject: |
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pjiddy wrote: | Wildchild027 wrote: | pjiddy wrote: | BTW, between the four conference final teams, Gerald Green was the only "vet minimum" guy. So i'm not sure the "vet min ring chaser" market is as robust as we'd like to imagine it. |
The vet min for David West isn't 800 K, it's 1.4 million. Javele McGee made that amount, as well as LMAM. Derrick Rose and Jeff Green also made that amount for the Cavs. |
GOod to know. All the salary cap projections I've seen have slots for 800k. So how 1.4 mil guys affect that situation? |
it does not. Thus it is called 'exception' _________________ Major bullets dodged: DH12 - twice, LMA, Melo - twice, PG-13, DeMar DeRozan. Hit jackpot with DH-12 at the right time |
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2019 Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Dec 2014 Posts: 10786
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:07 am Post subject: |
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ElginBaylor wrote: | Any trade for KL probably would require letting go of Kuz or Ingram. It should not, however, include both. That would be ridiculous. |
Kuzma is the guy to keep and I think that's how Magic feels too.
I easily see them moving BI and Lonzo (Lavar to thank for that) before Kuzma. |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:08 am Post subject: |
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ElginBaylor wrote: | Any trade for KL probably would require letting go of Kuz or Ingram. It should not, however, include both. That would be ridiculous. |
The psychology of LG never ceases to fascinate me. I don't mean this as a poke at anyone (including you, EB). There is just a repeated process of (1) dreaming of getting Player X, (2) swearing that everyone is expendable if we could just get Player X, (3) ecstasy at a rumor that Player X might be available, (4) anticipatory buyer's remorse, and (5) declarations that we should only offer Jordan Farmar and a second round draft pick for Player X. I don't know how many times I've seen this. The earliest one I remember was Carlos Boozer.
Anyway, let's assume for sake of discussion that Kawhi is healthy. Unless and until we determine that he is healthy, we shouldn't even be offering the ghost of Jordan Farmar for him. This should be obvious. We will not be making any deals in the dark. If it is a gamble, we should just say no.
If he is healthy, then all of the talk about Ingram and Kuzma is silly. A healthy Kawhi is one of the top five players in the league. Ingram and Kuzma are not top 50 players in the league, and they may never get there. 2017 Kawhi averaged 25.5 ppg, was third in the MVP voting, was first team all-NBA, and was first team all defense. Oh, yeah, if Kawhi is on the table, we can part with Ingram and Kuzma if the Spurs will take them.
There will be other teams coming out of the woodwork looking to get a shot at Kawhi. Even though we have a long term advantage, that doesn't mean that other teams won't take their chances. After all, we may not have the cap space to sign him next summer anyway. |
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lakerican Star Player
Joined: 09 May 2005 Posts: 3780
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:08 am Post subject: |
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LongBeachPoly wrote: | pjiddy wrote: | LongBeachPoly wrote: | pjiddy wrote: |
Yeah, no thank you. This is the type of thing that can set you back a decade. If Kawhi is never fully healthy again, and Lebron and/or PG do short contracts....that's catastrophic. 5 years of tanking and lotto picks all gone. And we'd likely be out some future draft picks from unloading Deng and/or trading for Kawhi. This is Brooklyn Nets territory.
Honestly this seems more risky than signing Boogie off his achilles. At least that would be a shorter deal and cost less (if any) assets. |
Why would we lose 5 yrs of tanking in a trade for Kawhi?
2014 - Julius Randle - restricted free agent
2015 - Dlo - already traded to Nets
2016 - Ingram
2017 - Lonzo + Kuzma
2018 - lost draft pick to Philly in Nash trade |
Randle - renounced to fit Kawhi
DLO - traded to create cap space
Ingram/Lonzo/Kuzma/Hart - between trading Kawhi and dumping Deng, 3 of these guys are gone
2019 pick - probably moved in Deng trade
2021 pick - moved in Deng or Kawhi trade
If Lebron and PG sign short deals and find themselves on roster of journeymen and a perpetually injured Kawhi...they could both be gone. What's left on this roster? |
1) If we’re trading for Kawhi, why would we need to renounce Randle?
2) Dlo was traded for cap space. How does that tie into Kawhi? Dlo was traded last yr. Kawhi just became available. How does one tie into the other?
3) How does dumping Deng tie into Kawhi? Why would u need to dump Deng to trade for Kawhi?
4) How is the 2019 n 2021 picks a part of tanking if they r projected to be late first rd picks? And how does dumping Deng tie into trading for Kawhi? And initially u said 5 yrs of tanking gone - that’s 2014-2018 right? Are we now including 2019 n 2021 as tanking yrs as well? |
Because everybody acts like we have a caphold of 35mil in LBron and LBron will be the 1st domino. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Inspector Gadget wrote: | The Cavs talk can be a smokescreen to make the Lakers up there offer, just imagine how nervous Magic would be if the Cavs traded for KL and he found out that LeBron was considering staying in Cleveland. |
So they up an offer that they never made? _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Jesusdelonla Franchise Player
Joined: 24 Jan 2018 Posts: 15430
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:12 am Post subject: |
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2019 wrote: | ElginBaylor wrote: | Any trade for KL probably would require letting go of Kuz or Ingram. It should not, however, include both. That would be ridiculous. |
Kuzma is the guy to keep and I think that's how Magic feels too.
I easily see them moving BI and Lonzo (Lavar to thank for that) before Kuzma. |
yeah also we don't need to give BI + Kuz when he is basically saying only LA |
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