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defense
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Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 39532
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 Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 7:41 am Post subject: |
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How many championships does that laker model have?
Utah?
Settle down! |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | Wait,
the Lakers don't have player development, quality coaching, and sound player personas now? |
I think the OP means to contrast this to chasing big name free agents. There is a certain appeal to the Spurs/Jazz approach, if you can pull it off. |
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Bard207
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Joined: 08 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:13 am Post subject: Re: The Utah Model |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | troy wrote: | | I'm becoming more and more convinced that player development, quality coaching, and sound player personas are the key to being successful in this league, as opposed to catering to greedy superstars. |
What a radical idea. Thank goodness no one ever told the Spurs about that. |
Coach Snyder and GM Lindsey used to work for the Spurs. |
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JM
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Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 1281
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:13 am Post subject: Re: The Utah Model |
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| troy wrote: | I'm becoming more and more convinced that player development, quality coaching, and sound player personas are the key to being successful in this league, as opposed to catering to greedy superstars.
I'm referring specifically to the success of the Utah Jazz, easily one of my favorite teams.
No superstars there, just good quality young players committed to their roles, buying into a sound system of coaching, and playing hard every night for their fans and for themselves.
While everyone is salivating over the prospect of signing Paul George, this Utah team, with no superstars, has soundly eliminated a Thunder team with 3 superstars. There has to be something to say about that.
I wouldn't be surprised if this Jazz team eliminates the Rockets. Why? Because, unlike superstar-heavy teams that rely on their big players going one on one and playing hero ball, teams like the Jazz (and the Spurs back in the day) emphasize team ball; proficient passing, trusting each other, buying into a system, and playing hard.
I'm torn. I'm not a fan of Paul George's game. K. Leonard pouted heavily and let his team down. Cousins is coming off a difficult injury. Yes, Lebron is Lebron, but I really like what Utah has done.
If NO superstars come our way, I'm good with that. I say we follow the Utah model and watch our Lakers develop. The seeds are there, we just have to let them grow. |
I agree. Plus home-grown folks give one a rooting focus. I liked what Lonzo said recently in this vein, declaring that he really like his teammates and had belief in their common future as a developing group. I have hated the way the Lakers have propped up their franchise with very-fading stars (Shaq and Pau notwithstanding,, uh, and showtime grabbed lots of good bench vets - Thompson comes to mind.) With all this, I'm very much in favor off hanging with Luke and developing him as well. |
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Ziggy
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Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| I mean, Gobert is pretty close to being a superstar if you don't consider him one already. His presence completely changes their team. They were an elite defensive team before they added Mitchell. |
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Bard207
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| RI Laker wrote: | | Fleece another team by trading up to snatch a player on the verge of being a star. |
Great transactions sometimes have a team losing
* Compensation pick from New Orleans that became Magic
* Pick from Cleveland that became Worthy
* Pick for Vlade that became Kobe
* Boston trading KG, Pierce etc for multiple Brooklyn picks
etc |
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Bard207
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | A huge part of Utah’s success is Quin Snyder.
They aren’t doing anything all that unique in terms of roster construction.
Now why is the Utah model, a better one for success, then the GS model?? |
They did it with a huge amount of scrounging.
Mitchell -- #13
Gobert -- #27
Ingles -- Cut by the Clippers and picked up on a waiver claim
Rubio -- Traded by Minnesota, not highly sought after last summer
Favors -- #3 by Nets
Crowder -- Trade from Cleveland
Exum -- #5
Royce O'Neal -- FA signing
Burks -- #12
Jerebko -- FA signing |
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epak
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| It helps that their rookie is playing his brains out. |
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Lucky_Shot
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | | We also went from 30th in the league in defense to 12th in one season, while heavily relying on THREE rookies and a second year player. That's Brad Stevens level success right there. |
Agreed. Most striking thing to me was that.
At our peak, finally got that feeling again that we could compete with most teams on any given night. |
And the pace this team plays at is crazy. It feels like Luke gave this team a clear identity that they can grow into. |
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AY2043
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Bard207 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | A huge part of Utah’s success is Quin Snyder.
They aren’t doing anything all that unique in terms of roster construction.
Now why is the Utah model, a better one for success, then the GS model?? |
They did it with a huge amount of scrounging.
Mitchell -- #13
Gobert -- #27
Ingles -- Cut by the Clippers and picked up on a waiver claim
Rubio -- Traded by Minnesota, not highly sought after last summer
Favors -- #3 by Nets
Crowder -- Trade from Cleveland
Exum -- #5
Royce O'Neal -- FA signing
Burks -- #12
Jerebko -- FA signing |
The pre-KD Warriors did a fair amount of scrounging themselves though -- in a way, they kind of were the Jazz model. I mean, it wasn't like Curry or Klay were surefire #1 overall picks, and Dray was a 2nd rounder. Iggy, Livingston, and Bogut were already aging when they signed them. Barnes was a 7th pick too. |
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lonzobryant
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| I'm pretty sure every team would like to have Gobert on their team at C. |
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LakersRGolden
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:01 am Post subject: |
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It's all about trading for young talent when you can't compete for FA's.
Were any of their players of note their own pick or a FA pickup? |
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Bard207
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| LakersRGolden wrote: | It's all about trading for young talent when you can't compete for FA's.
Were any of their players of note their own pick or a FA pickup? |
Ingles was cut by the Clippers and Utah picked him up on a waiver claim. He might be considered their #3 or at worst #4 player. |
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Bard207
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| AY2043 wrote: | | Bard207 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | A huge part of Utah’s success is Quin Snyder.
They aren’t doing anything all that unique in terms of roster construction.
Now why is the Utah model, a better one for success, then the GS model?? |
They did it with a huge amount of scrounging.
Mitchell -- #13
Gobert -- #27
Ingles -- Cut by the Clippers and picked up on a waiver claim
Rubio -- Traded by Minnesota, not highly sought after last summer
Favors -- #3 by Nets
Crowder -- Trade from Cleveland
Exum -- #5
Royce O'Neal -- FA signing
Burks -- #12
Jerebko -- FA signing |
The pre-KD Warriors did a fair amount of scrounging themselves though -- in a way, they kind of were the Jazz model. I mean, it wasn't like Curry or Klay were surefire #1 overall picks, and Dray was a 2nd rounder. Iggy, Livingston, and Bogut were already aging when they signed them. Barnes was a 7th pick too. |
Yes, they did well putting that team together.
I think that Jerry West in favor of them trading Monta and for the drafting of Thompson. Then he was opposed to them trading Thompson for Love.
It helps to have wise people making FO decisions. |
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Judah
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:29 am Post subject: |
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There isn’t just one blueprint to follow. We’ve seen different models of success recently in the league. The Heat had one superstar in hand already (Wade) and went into the summer with a two-max plan. That led to two championships. Magic referenced the Boston model recently as one that he admires. I think what the Lakers are looking to do is a combination of the Miami model (two-max) and the Boston model (adding All-Star talent to an already promising young core).
I won’t take anything away from Utah because they’re playing well, but the very thing the OP admires about them (not having superstars) is exactly why they’re not going to advance beyond the second round. You need superstar talent to win championships. Besides, Utah doesn’t lack superstars by choice. If they could get LeBron James and Paul George, do you really think they wouldn't because they'd rather have guys like Ingles and Jae Crowder? They’re forced into their approach because no one wants to play in Utah, and that will never change. Even among small markets they’re at the bottom of the barrel. The very bottom.
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Last edited by Judah on Thu May 03, 2018 9:43 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Judah
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | I just chuckle when we had Snyder here as an assistant coach. But he didn't play on the Lakers so yeah... |
Well, he was only here for a year as Brown’s assistant. He left to be the lead assistant under Messina overseas. Once he returned to the NBA there was never a time where they were looking for a new coach and he was available simultaneously. I suppose he could’ve been hired in 2014 after MDA quit, but Mitch and Jim had the ‘let’s let LeBron choose his coach’ FA pitch that failed in epic fashion. But Snyder signed with Utah in early June IIRC.
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“Christ did not die to forgive sinners who go on treasuring anything above seeing and savoring God. And people who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there, will not be there."
- John Piper |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| Judah wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I just chuckle when we had Snyder here as an assistant coach. But he didn't play on the Lakers so yeah... |
Well, he was only here for a year as Brown’s assistant. He left to be the lead assistant under Messina overseas. Once he returned to the NBA there was never a time where they were looking for a new coach and he was available simultaneously. I suppose he could’ve been hired in 2014 after MDA quit, but Mitch and Jim had the ‘let’s let LeBron choose his coach’ FA pitch that failed in epic fashion. But Snyder signed with Utah in early June IIRC. |
Brown amassed quite a talented assistant coaching staff. Too bad the man at the top stunk.
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JeezyXVII
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| noahp45 wrote: | | What stands out to me about Boston, Utah and the 76Ers. Is youth a system and good coaching. |
I think Lakers have all those, just havent brought it all together.
But I think next years the year we get upto their status. |
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2019
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:52 am Post subject: |
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the only model we should have is patience... things are happening exactly as they should/. We've got a 'dynamite' young core, a really good young coach that can one day be great, a management that is aggressive but shows restraint, and max space for 2 guys.
... So we can blend Utah, OKC, Miami, and Boston models into one...
Develop young core. Add superstars. Win now. Win later. |
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Day
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| This seems silly. Where would they be if Mitchel wasn't playing like Kobe ? |
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audioaxes
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Utah doesnt have a prayer to win a championship at current trajectory. Obviously they cant compete against the Warriors OR the next gen teams ready to take over after the Warrior's window ends (Celtics,76ers)
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KindCrippler2000
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| Utah has Donovan McNabb. Who do we have again? |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:05 am Post subject: Re: The Utah Model |
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| JM wrote: |
I agree. Plus home-grown folks give one a rooting focus. I liked what Lonzo said recently in this vein, declaring that he really like his teammates and had belief in their common future as a developing group. |
I don't think fans' rooting interest is any higher for drafted players than for players acquired through trades and free agency.
While we were winning rings, I doubt many fans cared that Jamal Wilkes, Shaq, Gasol, Kareem, Wilt, Horry, Odom, etc. were on other teams before they joined the Lakers.
As a fan, I just want the Lakers to assemble the best possible combination of talent, and I'm indifferent whether that talent comes through the draft, trades or free agency. Any approach can work. |
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bandiger
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Judah wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I just chuckle when we had Snyder here as an assistant coach. But he didn't play on the Lakers so yeah... |
Well, he was only here for a year as Brown’s assistant. He left to be the lead assistant under Messina overseas. Once he returned to the NBA there was never a time where they were looking for a new coach and he was available simultaneously. I suppose he could’ve been hired in 2014 after MDA quit, but Mitch and Jim had the ‘let’s let LeBron choose his coach’ FA pitch that failed in epic fashion. But Snyder signed with Utah in early June IIRC. |
Brown amassed quite a talented assistant coaching staff. Too bad the man at the top stunk. |
Dude was willing to change offense to suit the roster at the time but yeah all that "hard work" and they still looked confused and ugly. |
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bandiger
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Day wrote: | | This seems silly. Where would they be if Mitchel wasn't playing like Kobe ? |
In the lotto? I mean teams luck into stars but they did see talent in this player so I give them credit like West found talent in Kobe. Its too bad we had to rely on Jimbo and Mitch they really didn't fit the role in rebuilding. |
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