The Utah Model
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:12 am    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Chronicle wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Wait,

the Lakers don't have player development, quality coaching, and sound player personas now?


They definitely do, imo. Scouting has been killing it.


Coaching needs some work


Lakers improved by 9 wins in Luke's first season, and then improved by 9 more wins in Luke's second season. Each of his first seasons heavily relied on young talent and a number of rookies. Then you can look at the improvements both Randle and Ingram have made since their rookie years. Honestly, I'm not sure we could expect more at this point, especially when taking into account the injuries our team went through this past season.


It's hard for me to know how much the coaching contributed to the win improvement, since the roster each of the past three years have been dramatically different. (And it's easier to improve in wins when you are starting from such a low base.)

I'm content with the improvement of the rookies and the overall job Luke has done, but I would say it's way too early to judge how good a coach he is. We'll know that once the talent improves and the team isn't in so much flux.
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Judah
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:21 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Chronicle wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Wait,

the Lakers don't have player development, quality coaching, and sound player personas now?


They definitely do, imo. Scouting has been killing it.


Coaching needs some work


Lakers improved by 9 wins in Luke's first season, and then improved by 9 more wins in Luke's second season. Each of his first seasons heavily relied on young talent and a number of rookies. Then you can look at the improvements both Randle and Ingram have made since their rookie years. Honestly, I'm not sure we could expect more at this point, especially when taking into account the injuries our team went through this past season.


It's hard for me to know how much the coaching contributed to the win improvement, since the roster each of the past three years have been dramatically different. (And it's easier to improve in wins when you are starting from such a low base.)

I'm content with the improvement of the rookies and the overall job Luke has done, but I would say it's way too early to judge how good a coach he is. We'll know that once the talent improves and the team isn't in so much flux.

How do you explain going from dead last to 12th in defense?
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:23 am    Post subject:

Quote:
How do you explain going from dead last to 12th in defense?


In part personnel changes. Gone were defensive sieves in Swaggy/Lou/DLO, replaced by more compentent defenders in KCP/Hart/Lonzo/Brook.

But I do think Luke's defensive coaching cannot be excluded.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:27 am    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
activeverb wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Chronicle wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Wait,

the Lakers don't have player development, quality coaching, and sound player personas now?


They definitely do, imo. Scouting has been killing it.


Coaching needs some work


Lakers improved by 9 wins in Luke's first season, and then improved by 9 more wins in Luke's second season. Each of his first seasons heavily relied on young talent and a number of rookies. Then you can look at the improvements both Randle and Ingram have made since their rookie years. Honestly, I'm not sure we could expect more at this point, especially when taking into account the injuries our team went through this past season.


It's hard for me to know how much the coaching contributed to the win improvement, since the roster each of the past three years have been dramatically different. (And it's easier to improve in wins when you are starting from such a low base.)

I'm content with the improvement of the rookies and the overall job Luke has done, but I would say it's way too early to judge how good a coach he is. We'll know that once the talent improves and the team isn't in so much flux.

How do you explain going from dead last to 12th in defense?


Hmm, no Deng, Moz, DLO, JC, Nick, and a "lazy" JR on defense. This last crop of players were competent on defense compared to the one 2-3 years ago. I'm not impressed with Luke until he gets to the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject:

Dennis Lindsey is a stud. One of the best GMs in the league by FAR.

He started in the Rockets organization in 1996, going from video coordinator, scout, director of basketball development, director of player personnel, to assistant GM. Then he moved to San Antonio where he was an Assistant GM under Buford from 2007 to 2012 until he became the GM in Utah.

He was the guy I wanted LA to hire but Pelinka has done well too.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:49 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Judah wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I just chuckle when we had Snyder here as an assistant coach. But he didn't play on the Lakers so yeah...

Well, he was only here for a year as Brown’s assistant. He left to be the lead assistant under Messina overseas. Once he returned to the NBA there was never a time where they were looking for a new coach and he was available simultaneously. I suppose he could’ve been hired in 2014 after MDA quit, but Mitch and Jim had the ‘let’s let LeBron choose his coach’ FA pitch that failed in epic fashion. But Snyder signed with Utah in early June IIRC.


Brown amassed quite a talented assistant coaching staff. Too bad the man at the top stunk.


Snider as head coach and Brown as top assistant in charge of the defense with an appropriate roster would be killer.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:57 am    Post subject:

bandiger wrote:
Judah wrote:
activeverb wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Chronicle wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Wait,

the Lakers don't have player development, quality coaching, and sound player personas now?


They definitely do, imo. Scouting has been killing it.


Coaching needs some work


Lakers improved by 9 wins in Luke's first season, and then improved by 9 more wins in Luke's second season. Each of his first seasons heavily relied on young talent and a number of rookies. Then you can look at the improvements both Randle and Ingram have made since their rookie years. Honestly, I'm not sure we could expect more at this point, especially when taking into account the injuries our team went through this past season.


It's hard for me to know how much the coaching contributed to the win improvement, since the roster each of the past three years have been dramatically different. (And it's easier to improve in wins when you are starting from such a low base.)

I'm content with the improvement of the rookies and the overall job Luke has done, but I would say it's way too early to judge how good a coach he is. We'll know that once the talent improves and the team isn't in so much flux.

How do you explain going from dead last to 12th in defense?


Hmm, no Deng, Moz, DLO, JC, Nick, and a "lazy" JR on defense. This last crop of players were competent on defense compared to the one 2-3 years ago. I'm not impressed with Luke until he gets to the playoffs.

Having improved personnel only means that there’s a decent to good chance that the team will be improved on that end. No one on this forum predicted that they’d go all the way from 30th to 12th. That improved roster was comprised of mostly 20 year olds who were either rookies or in their second year. They were projected to be one of the worst in the league on defense again, but weren’t. You’re out of your mind if you think coaching wasn’t instrumental in that turnaround.
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Last edited by Judah on Thu May 03, 2018 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Luminous8
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:04 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
When you have a city like Utah, that historically cannot attract/keep top flight talent, they have no other choice.

Even Hayward left them, and on paper, he seemed like the kind of guy that would stay in Utah.


White?
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:24 pm    Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
When you have a city like Utah, that historically cannot attract/keep top flight talent, they have no other choice.

Even Hayward left them, and on paper, he seemed like the kind of guy that would stay in Utah.


White?


Mormon?
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:28 pm    Post subject:

"Having improved personnel only means that there’s a decent to good chance that the team will be improved on that end. No one on this forum predicted that they’d go all the way from 30th to 12th. That improved roster was comprised of mostly 20 year olds who were either rookies or in their second year. They were projected to be one of the worst in the league on defense again, but weren’t. You’re out of your mind if you think coaching wasn’t instrumental in that turnaround."

Agree with this 100%. Luke deserves a ton of credit.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:29 pm    Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
When you have a city like Utah, that historically cannot attract/keep top flight talent, they have no other choice.

Even Hayward left them, and on paper, he seemed like the kind of guy that would stay in Utah.


White?


Does it need to be spelled out?
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:30 pm    Post subject:

Utah's done pretty well w/o having won the lottery

#2 - Darrell Griffith (1980) - the highest draft pick in their history
#3 - Dominique Wilkins (1982) - he refused to play for Utah and was traded. Dominique years later said he probably would have won titles w/ Stockton and Malone
#3 - Deron Williams (2005) - they traded up for him (#6, #27, #30)
#3 - Enes Kanter (2011)
#7 - Thurl Bailey (1983)
#9 - Gordon Hayward (2010)

#13 - Karl Malone (1985)
#13 - Donovan Mitchell (2017)
#15 - Dell Curry (1986)
#16 - John Stockton (1984)

#23 - DeShawn Stevenson (2000)
#23 - Rodney Hood (2014)
#24 - Andrei Kirilenko (1999)
#27 - Jaque Vaughn (1997)
#28 - Greg Ostertag (1995)

#34 - CJ Miles (2005)

#45 - Bryon Russell (1993)
#47 - Mo Williams (2003)
#47 - Paul Milsap (2006)

#54 - Shandon Anderson (1996)

#72 - Mark Eaton (1982)

Quote:
Three players who would end up going on to become three of the league’s all-time greats and now Hall-of-Famers, all of whom were drafted by Utah within a four-year span, nearly played together in Salt Lake City.

That’s right, I’m talking about Dominique Wilkins, John Stockton and Karl Malone. All on one team.

Oh, what could have been.

In a recent interview with Deseret News, Wilkins took a look back and discussed what he thought could have taken place in Utah with him, Stockton and Malone.

Wilkins, a small forward who went on to play 17 years in the NBA, was drafted by the Jazz with the No. 3 pick in the 1982 NBA Draft. But after spending about two months with the organization prior to the start of the 1982-83 season, Wilkins wanted out of Utah, which sparked the Jazz to trade him to the Atlanta Hawks in exchange for Freeman Williams, John Drew and $1 million in cash.

“Well, they wanted me to play power forward and I wasn’t playing power forward. I was a small forward,” Wilkins said in his interview with Deseret News. “Power forwards in them days was some big, physical and I’m not going to say what else and I didn’t want no part of that.”


Quote:
“Playing with Stockton and Malone, we probably could’ve won a few championships,” Wilkins told Deseret News. “Not probably, we would’ve, but again, things happen in life for a reason, and you’ve got to take what cards are dealt, but coming to Atlanta was a blessing for me, and I’ve never left.”


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Thu May 03, 2018 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:39 pm    Post subject:

It wouldn't shock me if the Lakers tried to mellow out a little of Utah's jazz by poaching a player. I think Rob takes a long look at Dante Exum this summer. He's an RFA, and Rob was his agent until he became GM.

I don't know if he's worth what he'll get to avoid a Utah match - he's missed so much development time dealing with injuries - but having another tall, fast, solid-defending combo guard would not be a bad thing. Just depends on how well he can actually shoot.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:42 pm    Post subject:

LuciusAllen wrote:
It wouldn't shock me if the Lakers tried to mellow out a little of Utah's jazz by poaching a player. I think Rob takes a long look at Dante Exum this summer. He's an RFA, and Rob was his agent until he became GM.

I don't know if he's worth what he'll get to avoid a Utah match - he's missed so much development time dealing with injuries - but having another tall, fast, solid-defending combo guard would not be a bad thing. Just depends on how well he can actually shoot.


Doubt we are playing the RFA game and tying up cap space. Utah likely keeps him.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:52 pm    Post subject:

LuciusAllen wrote:
It wouldn't shock me if the Lakers tried to mellow out a little of Utah's jazz by poaching a player. I think Rob takes a long look at Dante Exum this summer. He's an RFA, and Rob was his agent until he became GM.

I don't know if he's worth what he'll get to avoid a Utah match - he's missed so much development time dealing with injuries - but having another tall, fast, solid-defending combo guard would not be a bad thing. Just depends on how well he can actually shoot.


If they sign Exum it would have to be on a multi year deal. He's not signing a 1 year deal.

If we sign Exum to a multi year deal, then we traded D'Angelo Russell for Exum. We moved DR to clear cap space for the 2nd max free agent. I don't know if we moved DR to create space for an Exum multi year deal.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:58 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
LuciusAllen wrote:
It wouldn't shock me if the Lakers tried to mellow out a little of Utah's jazz by poaching a player. I think Rob takes a long look at Dante Exum this summer. He's an RFA, and Rob was his agent until he became GM.

I don't know if he's worth what he'll get to avoid a Utah match - he's missed so much development time dealing with injuries - but having another tall, fast, solid-defending combo guard would not be a bad thing. Just depends on how well he can actually shoot.


If they sign Exum it would have to be on a multi year deal. He's not signing a 1 year deal.

If we sign Exum to a multi year deal, then we traded D'Angelo Russell for Exum. We moved DR to clear cap space for the 2nd max free agent. I don't know if we moved DR to create space for an Exum multi year deal.


As a RFA you can't sign him to a 1 year deal.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:09 pm    Post subject:

Chronicle wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Chronicle wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Wait,

the Lakers don't have player development, quality coaching, and sound player personas now?


They definitely do, imo. Scouting has been killing it.


Coaching needs some work


Lakers improved by 9 wins in Luke's first season, and then improved by 9 more wins in Luke's second season. Each of his first seasons heavily relied on young talent and a number of rookies. Then you can look at the improvements both Randle and Ingram have made since their rookie years. Honestly, I'm not sure we could expect more at this point, especially when taking into account the injuries our team went through this past season.


I'm not saying the coaching didn't improve, but that it didn't improve enough. Luke's biggest weakness is rotations, which has been the case since his stint with Golden state. I see very little improvement in that. It took a team meeting for him to start our best player halfway through the season. Out of bound plays are also a significant weakness.

Yes our coaching has improved in some parts, but in other parts they still need some work. And it's something that should be prioritised imo
Lol at Rotations as a weakness when you have a bunch of kids the FO is telling you to play a ton of mins regardless of wins and losses.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:37 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
LuciusAllen wrote:
It wouldn't shock me if the Lakers tried to mellow out a little of Utah's jazz by poaching a player. I think Rob takes a long look at Dante Exum this summer. He's an RFA, and Rob was his agent until he became GM.

I don't know if he's worth what he'll get to avoid a Utah match - he's missed so much development time dealing with injuries - but having another tall, fast, solid-defending combo guard would not be a bad thing. Just depends on how well he can actually shoot.


If they sign Exum it would have to be on a multi year deal. He's not signing a 1 year deal.

If we sign Exum to a multi year deal, then we traded D'Angelo Russell for Exum. We moved DR to clear cap space for the 2nd max free agent. I don't know if we moved DR to create space for an Exum multi year deal.

Please, just no! It was for the best either way getting that no defense, damaged knees cancer off the team.

Besides, we got Kuzma and Hart out of that deal already, both much better than Russell.

I also doubt that we sign Exum, but Russell is not a factor in this. It'd actually be better to say we traded Mosgov for this, but I know no one here (including me) would like that.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:37 pm    Post subject:

I never thought I would ever utter these words but UTAH is my favorite remaining team in the playoffs.

Love Mitchell, love Coach Snyder and I LOVE the intensity and ferocity that Jae Crowder brings. He backs down from nobody.

I love the way Exum came out of nowhere in the 4th quarter to help beat the Rockets.

Joe Ingles is solid.

I really like this team. They are so easy to root for.

The fact that they've made it this far just shows that Rubio is completely expendable. The team has done all the heavy lifting without him.

Gobert's hands can be made of stone sometimes, and the bench gets pretty thin but all in all I really dig these guys and would love it if they smoked Houston a few more times. Houston is completely unlikable to me.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:44 pm    Post subject:

dubaholic1 wrote:
I never thought I would ever utter these words but UTAH is my favorite remaining team in the playoffs.

Love Mitchell, love Coach Snyder and I LOVE the intensity and ferocity that Jae Crowder brings. He backs down from nobody.

I love the way Exum came out of nowhere in the 4th quarter to help beat the Rockets.

Joe Ingles is solid.

I really like this team. They are so easy to root for.

The fact that they've made it this far just shows that Rubio is completely expendable. The team has done all the heavy lifting without him.

Gobert's hands can be made of stone sometimes, and the bench gets pretty thin but all in all I really dig these guys and would love it if they smoked Houston a few more times. Houston is completely unlikable to me.


While it's impressive they are doing this without Rubio, Mitchell is the defacto point guard and showing he can initiate like Harden in the PnR setting. Helps to have a secondary or tertiary initiator in the offense. It's one of the reasons Lakers started seeing success with BI at point forward during Lonzo's absence.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:51 pm    Post subject:

KindCrippler2000 wrote:
dubaholic1 wrote:
I never thought I would ever utter these words but UTAH is my favorite remaining team in the playoffs.

Love Mitchell, love Coach Snyder and I LOVE the intensity and ferocity that Jae Crowder brings. He backs down from nobody.

I love the way Exum came out of nowhere in the 4th quarter to help beat the Rockets.

Joe Ingles is solid.

I really like this team. They are so easy to root for.

The fact that they've made it this far just shows that Rubio is completely expendable. The team has done all the heavy lifting without him.

Gobert's hands can be made of stone sometimes, and the bench gets pretty thin but all in all I really dig these guys and would love it if they smoked Houston a few more times. Houston is completely unlikable to me.


While it's impressive they are doing this without Rubio, Mitchell is the defacto point guard and showing he can initiate like Harden in the PnR setting. Helps to have a secondary or tertiary initiator in the offense. It's one of the reasons Lakers started seeing success with BI at point forward during Lonzo's absence.


I guess maybe I just dont like Rubio for some reason Maybe its the hair? dunno.he just rubs me the wrong way.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:52 pm    Post subject:

Gobert is the engine that makes Utah go
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:54 pm    Post subject:

Until this thread, I wasn't even aware Utah had a "model"
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 4:15 pm    Post subject:

LuciusAllen wrote:
It wouldn't shock me if the Lakers tried to mellow out a little of Utah's jazz by poaching a player. I think Rob takes a long look at Dante Exum this summer. He's an RFA, and Rob was his agent until he became GM.

I don't know if he's worth what he'll get to avoid a Utah match - he's missed so much development time dealing with injuries - but having another tall, fast, solid-defending combo guard would not be a bad thing. Just depends on how well he can actually shoot.


He was pretty effective guarding Harden. Yeah if JR looks like a loss, this dude would be a nice compensation.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: The Utah Model

troy wrote:
I'm becoming more and more convinced that player development, quality coaching, and sound player personas are the key to being successful in this league, as opposed to catering to greedy superstars.

I'm referring specifically to the success of the Utah Jazz, easily one of my favorite teams.

No superstars there, just good quality young players committed to their roles, buying into a sound system of coaching, and playing hard every night for their fans and for themselves.

While everyone is salivating over the prospect of signing Paul George, this Utah team, with no superstars, has soundly eliminated a Thunder team with 3 superstars. There has to be something to say about that.

I wouldn't be surprised if this Jazz team eliminates the Rockets. Why? Because, unlike superstar-heavy teams that rely on their big players going one on one and playing hero ball, teams like the Jazz (and the Spurs back in the day) emphasize team ball; proficient passing, trusting each other, buying into a system, and playing hard.

I'm torn. I'm not a fan of Paul George's game. K. Leonard pouted heavily and let his team down. Cousins is coming off a difficult injury. Yes, Lebron is Lebron, but I really like what Utah has done.

If NO superstars come our way, I'm good with that. I say we follow the Utah model and watch our Lakers develop. The seeds are there, we just have to let them grow.


you need a top 5 player on your tgeam if you want a chip. utah is good but lets be real they are never winning a chip unless Mitchell becomes the best guard in the league which is possible haha
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