The Utah Model
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
activeverb wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Chronicle wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Wait,

the Lakers don't have player development, quality coaching, and sound player personas now?


They definitely do, imo. Scouting has been killing it.


Coaching needs some work


Lakers improved by 9 wins in Luke's first season, and then improved by 9 more wins in Luke's second season. Each of his first seasons heavily relied on young talent and a number of rookies. Then you can look at the improvements both Randle and Ingram have made since their rookie years. Honestly, I'm not sure we could expect more at this point, especially when taking into account the injuries our team went through this past season.


It's hard for me to know how much the coaching contributed to the win improvement, since the roster each of the past three years have been dramatically different. (And it's easier to improve in wins when you are starting from such a low base.)

I'm content with the improvement of the rookies and the overall job Luke has done, but I would say it's way too early to judge how good a coach he is. We'll know that once the talent improves and the team isn't in so much flux.

How do you explain going from dead last to 12th in defense?


Again, it's not as if one static group of players improved their defense from 30th in the league to 12th in the league. We had a huge number of roster changes, getting rid of some poor defenders and adding some good ones. Most of the remaining players were young, and we can debate how much of their defensive Improvement was simply the natural Improvement you might expect from young players.

Certainly, Luke put more emphasis on defense than Byron Scott did. But with all the roster changes it's hard to say how much of the Improvement was due to him.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 4:49 pm    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
How do you explain going from dead last to 12th in defense?


Isn’t that up to you to explain, considering, we had the same coach in each season?

Personally, I think Luke gets some of the credit, but, we also had an total revamp of the starting unit with 3 new starters.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 5:49 pm    Post subject:

Having improved personnel only means that there’s a decent to good chance that the team will be improved on that end. No one on this forum predicted that they’d go all the way from 30th to 12th. That improved roster was comprised of mostly 20 year olds who were either rookies or in their second year. They were projected to be one of the worst in the league on defense again, but weren’t. You’re out of your mind if you think coaching wasn’t instrumental in that turnaround.

^^@ both of you.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: The Utah Model

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/quin-snyder-on-process-patience-and-how-an-elite-defense-is-built/
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:41 pm    Post subject:

The thing with Luke is that he didn't come to LA with a system, he's creating his system as our young core is creating their identities.

It's a process, I think Luke is doing fine. He's improving in almost all areas of coaching, he's open to taking advice from everyone, our young core loves him and he can control a locker room. He's learned from Phil and Kerr.

This year we started to establish an identity, and I love it. We play the fastest pace in the entire league with a pass first point guard, this team has potential to play some really really fun basketball.

The Lakers system excites me, next season it'll take off to the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:29 pm    Post subject:

There is only one gobert. That’s the reason for Utah’s success. It’s that simple
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:34 pm    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
Having improved personnel only means that there’s a decent to good chance that the team will be improved on that end. No one on this forum predicted that they’d go all the way from 30th to 12th. That improved roster was comprised of mostly 20 year olds who were either rookies or in their second year. They were projected to be one of the worst in the league on defense again, but weren’t. You’re out of your mind if you think coaching wasn’t instrumental in that turnaround.

^^@ both of you.


Well, in Luke's first season as coach, he took over a team that was #30 on defense and kept them at #30 on defense.

Do you think coaching was instrumental to our lack of improvement that year?

Is your perception that between his first and second year Luke became a dramatically better coach when it came to defense?
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:49 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Judah wrote:
Having improved personnel only means that there’s a decent to good chance that the team will be improved on that end. No one on this forum predicted that they’d go all the way from 30th to 12th. That improved roster was comprised of mostly 20 year olds who were either rookies or in their second year. They were projected to be one of the worst in the league on defense again, but weren’t. You’re out of your mind if you think coaching wasn’t instrumental in that turnaround.

^^@ both of you.


Well, in Luke's first season as coach, he took over a team that was #30 on defense and kept them at #30 on defense.

Do you think coaching was instrumental to our lack of improvement that year?

Is your perception that between his first and second year Luke became a dramatically better coach when it came to defense?

My view isn’t nearly as shallow as yours. That’s the difference. I’m not discounting that an upgraded roster was an important key. What’s absurd is to attribute a massive leap like that to strictly personnel, especially since, again, many of the players in the rotation were rookies and sophomores, a point that you conveniently ignored since it doesn’t fit the one-dimensional paradigm of your argument.

I also think that one of the biggest reasons for the improvement defensively was that Brian Keefe seemed to be promoted on the staff as the defensive coordinator. I don’t know this for sure, but he was strictly a player development coach during his first year and sat on the second bench with the other player development coaches. This year, however, he and Madsen swapped benches and I suspect that was why. Keefe has been a defensive coordinator in the past on previous coaching staffs prior to joining LA.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:14 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Wait,

the Lakers don't have player development, quality coaching, and sound player personas now?


I think the OP means to contrast this to chasing big name free agents. There is a certain appeal to the Spurs/Jazz approach, if you can pull it off.


I think a mix of methods is really best, hence GS went after Durant. Signing him was brilliant for them. It secured their ability to compete for rings for a number of years and guarded against injuries being able to completely derail them.

I think what we are doing is perfect but I do not think we should be giving up our youthful core to trade for these guys. Sign one as a FA, and if a deal that is reasonable comes up, perhaps be willing to trade one guy and change for another superstar.

I agree with the concept that we need to build something that has a chance to change and continue to grow. But the young guys have to step up quickly to show their stuff. They have had their year or two, that's it, if you don't start showing your ability to be competitive quickly, then trade them on potential. Look at D.Mitchell. That kid looks like a vet and a stud. He does make a few mistakes and there is room for improvement but he is competing at a high level. I am very impressed with him. Even when he is not scoring, he is getting assists and steals.

If we had a chance to move either BI or Randle for Kawhi, and our medical staff was able to determine that Kawhi was healthy, I would do that. But if it was going to take us two guys, like BI and Kuz or Randle and Kuz, then I would pass and wait for him to be a FA. If Kawhi really doesn't want to be here that much, and would be just as happy in New York or where ever, then so be it. I would hope to attract guys who really want to be here. Honestly, if we signed PG, I think James will consider us heavily. My problem with signing James is that he will likely want a sign and trade with a max contract. That screws us up too much. If somehow we could trade for him but include other assets, just not sure how it would be possible.

I would like the idea of signing PG this year and waiting until next year with our other FA, then we could consider Kawhi again and perhaps even A.Davis.
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 6:28 am    Post subject:

The Utah model is to have the most blatantly homer officiating of any team in the league. Still won't be enough to prevent them from getting knocked out by Houston. However, Mitchell is a special player.
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 8:28 am    Post subject:

The Laker model or what they’re attempting to do is one that will work. Young up and comming stars on cheap deals paired with two stars. We’re on the right path!
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 9:44 am    Post subject:

The Utah model.

Getting caught up on Mamba Day.
Let a 60 year old Kobe drop 60 on their asses.
Gordon Hayward getting hit so hard by Randle's moving screens his body ended up in Boston.
Quinn Snyder's red face proved he was taking shots with Mitch pregame.

Keep your wives under the same roof.
Best dance squad in America.
Sledding Mascot that will horrify kids someday when that act goes horribly wrong.
Something Something Park City
Jimmy Kimmel saying "Karl Malone".
Jordan game 6.

The Utah Model
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Judah wrote:
Having improved personnel only means that there’s a decent to good chance that the team will be improved on that end. No one on this forum predicted that they’d go all the way from 30th to 12th. That improved roster was comprised of mostly 20 year olds who were either rookies or in their second year. They were projected to be one of the worst in the league on defense again, but weren’t. You’re out of your mind if you think coaching wasn’t instrumental in that turnaround.

^^@ both of you.


Well, in Luke's first season as coach, he took over a team that was #30 on defense and kept them at #30 on defense.

Do you think coaching was instrumental to our lack of improvement that year?

Is your perception that between his first and second year Luke became a dramatically better coach when it came to defense?


My perception is that several of our players became noticeably better defenders over the course of the last season. The change in personnel generated most of the effect in the rankings, for sure. Swapping Young for Casey P., by itself, was enough to move us up in the rankings, even though Casey P. was not the defensive stalwart that he was supposed to be. Just the switch from Russell (-2.45 DRPM last year) to Ball (+2.29 DRPM this year) guaranteed a rise in the rankings.

Nonetheless, we saw improvement on defense from Randle, Ball, and even Kuzma over the course of the year. Whether that is a function of coaching, maturation, or team culture is hard to say, and perhaps it doesn’t matter. After all, one of the major knocks on Russell was his attitude. We were a sound, if average, defensive team, which is a step in the right direction.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 6:22 am    Post subject:

The Utah model is the best evidence, that the whole "modern NBA" and "smallball" thing is nonsense.

The Jazz roster is full of "dinosaurs" and lacks spacing.

Only Ingles is a shooter.

So you definitely can compete with oldschool players.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 6:28 am    Post subject:

Well Utah isn't very good, so not sure why they would be a good model for anything other than being mediocre.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 6:35 am    Post subject:

kobeandgary wrote:
Well Utah isn't very good, so not sure why they would be a good model for anything other than being mediocre.
ok thats what i was thinking when i initially saw this thread...what model?!
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 8:03 am    Post subject:

Utah is a team that overachieved and did as much as it could with the talent it has. That's a credit to Snyder and Mitchell. Same can be said for Boston (who, overall, has more talent than Utah even without Irving playing). At the end of the day though, coaching and hustle can only make up for so much. We saw that in the Indiana-Cleveland series and we are seeing that in the Utah-Houston series.

The reality is this entire season is that its been Houston and Golden State, then everyone else. Nothing has changed that reality, or the formula that makes team like Golden State/Houston, Golden State/Houston.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 9:44 am    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Nothing has changed that reality, or the formula that makes team like Golden State/Houston.


What will be interesting is how the luxury tax system affects that formula. But that is a different topic for another day.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:46 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Nothing has changed that reality, or the formula that makes team like Golden State/Houston.


What will be interesting is how the luxury tax system affects that formula. But that is a different topic for another day.


Aging stars, fatigue and lost depth (typically due to luxury tax concerns) has also been the formula for the destruction of a championship contender. The mighty rise and the mighty fall... just a matter of how long you can sustain it until you are replaced by the next one.

Golden State may have this year and, maybe, one more year... after that, and maybe as soon as next year, I think a window opens for the next contender. Because of Chris Paul's age and a potentially ballooning payroll, even if they get Lebron, I put Houston on that relatively same timeline FWIW. Maybe Houston has one extra year (i.e. this year plus maybe two more, especially if they get Lebron.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 11:04 am    Post subject:

Boston is very similar to Utah as well. Currently on Boston's playoff roster, except for Horford, everyone else is making less than $5M. It's unreal how Brad Stevens has been able to make use of what little that he has. No fancy bonifide superstars needed and the team is going along quite well in the playoffs.

I believe the success of the rebuilding very heavily depends on the GM and front office in general. If you have people making poor draft/hiring decisions, then the team is going to suffer. Take a look at what Ainge has been able to do so far, in terms of trading and drafting. It's no wonder why Boston is where they are right now.

On to Utah...Gobert, Hayward, and then Mitchell. Simply put, that is one amazing draft resume by their GM.

Now let's take a look at the Lakers. Our draft picks: DLo (traded), Nance and Clarkson (traded), JR (not a max player). As you can clearly see, we cannot draft quality players. As a result, we cannot rebuild thru the conventional means of drafting and developing. We have no choice but to go the route of using our legacy status in order to lure other FA superstars. This has worked in the past when KG joined Boston and Lebron joined Miami.

I think getting Lebron and PG13 next year would make us an instant contender. The key here is Lebron. PG13 alone would only make us a middle of the road playoff team.

Our drafting window has closed. We were a lottery team for so many years and we didn't make good use of our draft picks. What we really need is an Ainge or a Lindsey in our FO. We need to bring back Jerry West and offer him part ownership. It would be a very wise investment.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 11:21 am    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Nothing has changed that reality, or the formula that makes team like Golden State/Houston.


What will be interesting is how the luxury tax system affects that formula. But that is a different topic for another day.


Aging stars, fatigue and lost depth (typically due to luxury tax concerns) has also been the formula for the destruction of a championship contender. The mighty rise and the mighty fall... just a matter of how long you can sustain it until you are replaced by the next one.

Golden State may have this year and, maybe, one more year... after that, and maybe as soon as next year, I think a window opens for the next contender. Because of Chris Paul's age and a potentially ballooning payroll, even if they get Lebron, I put Houston on that relatively same timeline FWIW. Maybe Houston has one extra year (i.e. this year plus maybe two more, especially if they get Lebron.


This is about more than just Golden State. Look at OKC. They are not a contender, but they could be on the hook for a stunning amount of luxury tax next year. I saw one report indicating that, if they re-sign PG, they will owe over $100M in luxury tax.

This is going to have a long term effect on team building in the NBA. No one, including the Lakers and the Knicks, will accept paying that sort of money on a sustained basis. This is the intended effect of the system. Super teams will be difficult to construct, and they will not last very long.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 11:24 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Judah wrote:
Having improved personnel only means that there’s a decent to good chance that the team will be improved on that end. No one on this forum predicted that they’d go all the way from 30th to 12th. That improved roster was comprised of mostly 20 year olds who were either rookies or in their second year. They were projected to be one of the worst in the league on defense again, but weren’t. You’re out of your mind if you think coaching wasn’t instrumental in that turnaround.

^^@ both of you.


Well, in Luke's first season as coach, he took over a team that was #30 on defense and kept them at #30 on defense.

Do you think coaching was instrumental to our lack of improvement that year?

Is your perception that between his first and second year Luke became a dramatically better coach when it came to defense?


My perception is that several of our players became noticeably better defenders over the course of the last season. The change in personnel generated most of the effect in the rankings, for sure. Swapping Young for Casey P., by itself, was enough to move us up in the rankings, even though Casey P. was not the defensive stalwart that he was supposed to be. Just the switch from Russell (-2.45 DRPM last year) to Ball (+2.29 DRPM this year) guaranteed a rise in the rankings.

Nonetheless, we saw improvement on defense from Randle, Ball, and even Kuzma over the course of the year. Whether that is a function of coaching, maturation, or team culture is hard to say, and perhaps it doesn’t matter. After all, one of the major knocks on Russell was his attitude. We were a sound, if average, defensive team, which is a step in the right direction.


I think that's fair. My point, which is perhaps an obvious one, is that it's pretty hard to isolate the contribution a coach makes to team success. But then I am skeptical when fans want to exactly delineate what credit different people in the organization get for draft selection, trades, player improvement, and other stuff that has a lot of factors and a lot of people giving input.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 11:28 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
This is going to have a long term effect on team building in the NBA. No one, including the Lakers and the Knicks, will accept paying that sort of money on a sustained basis. This is the intended effect of the system. Super teams will be difficult to construct, and they will not last very long.


The owners are the ones that want the punitive penalties for spending....and there is a lot more of them that want to control market teams spending that there are big market teams.....not sure I see any changes in near future.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:20 pm    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
Boston is very similar to Utah as well. Currently on Boston's playoff roster, except for Horford, everyone else is making less than $5M. It's unreal how Brad Stevens has been able to make use of what little that he has. No fancy bonifide superstars needed and the team is going along quite well in the playoffs.


I wouldn't go that far. They just squeezed by a mediocre Bucks team 4-3 in the first round and they're steamrolling an inexperience 76ers team, most of whom are playing in their first playoffs ever, in the second round.

If their crew is able to challenge the Cavs, I'll be impressed. But my guess is they dearly miss Irving and Hayward right now. In fact, I'd say the theme of their season will be "what might have been" had their two max guys not gotten hurt.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 2:27 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
Boston is very similar to Utah as well. Currently on Boston's playoff roster, except for Horford, everyone else is making less than $5M. It's unreal how Brad Stevens has been able to make use of what little that he has. No fancy bonifide superstars needed and the team is going along quite well in the playoffs.


I wouldn't go that far. They just squeezed by a mediocre Bucks team 4-3 in the first round and they're steamrolling an inexperience 76ers team, most of whom are playing in their first playoffs ever, in the second round.

If their crew is able to challenge the Cavs, I'll be impressed. But my guess is they dearly miss Irving and Hayward right now. In fact, I'd say the theme of their season will be "what might have been" had their two max guys not gotten hurt.


Well we can only wait and see about the Cavs but 76ers looked like they were gonna represent the East when they beat the Heat in the first round.
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