Lakers Interested in Doncic
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:50 am    Post subject:

It's not about the Shaq/Malones, etc.

It's the 80s style of practices that look totally unnecessary and burn players out.

Zach LaVine? High flier. Kyrie has had injury history since Duke. Kristaps? There's never really a strong case of health for guys over 7'2". He added just 10lbs and look what happened.

KAT isn't a high flier, doesn't have the injury history, and isn't 7'2". LeBron and Blake aren't as yoked as they're made out to be? LeBron is still heavier than Kenyon Martin in his prime. Blake Griffin is built differently, but he's not THAT far from say, Karl Malone.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:00 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
It's not about the Shaq/Malones, etc.

It's the 80s style of practices that look totally unnecessary and burn players out.

Zach LaVine? High flier. Kyrie has had injury history since Duke. Kristaps? There's never really a strong case of health for guys over 7'2". He added just 10lbs and look what happened.

KAT isn't a high flier, doesn't have the injury history, and isn't 7'2". LeBron and Blake aren't as yoked as they're made out to be? LeBron is still heavier than Kenyon Martin in his prime. Blake Griffin is built differently, but he's not THAT far from say, Karl Malone.


I guess I don't understand your point then. You mentioned guys getting huge and implied that it leads to knee injuries but that doesn't seem to be the case at all. Also you said players were less injury prone in the 80s but that was the era of hard practices? Kenyon Martin isn't a name that comes to mind when I think of NBA players with bodybuilding physiques. I've been face to face with Blake, I was surprised by how not yoked he was. Definitely not in the same class as someone like Malone who ate dumbbells.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:29 am    Post subject:

Zach, Kyrie, Kristaps... all gained weight to strengthen up during Pre-Draft camp and did further development into the league. It's always the same 10-15 lbs with some prospects. I don't think there was anything near that in the 1980's or so, especially within a 3 month period.

But I don't think adding weight helped Zach when he was a high flier, Kyrie with whatever issues he has with his knees/ankles, or Kristaps with his ACL. I mean, did all that bulk really help DeMarcus Cousins? Did he really need it? Because now he's got a recovering ACL tear that needs to carry all of that pass too.

Also, it's not about looking yoked. I'm no expert, but I always get the idea that every person's muscle structure is different. One guy can look more yoked than the other, but still have the same amount of strength. One guy can look like an average SG (Gary Trent Jr) and still have the same reps of bench press compared to Sagaba Konate, who looks yoked.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:40 am    Post subject:

Cousins actually hurt himself after losing a bunch of weight. His injury was a result of being overworked if anything, career high in minutes I believe. I know Kris gained weight prior to his first season but as far as I know he hasn't gained anything since. Same with Zach. A lot of these guys are underweight and it's necessary for them to add pounds or they'd injure themselves a la Lonzo so I wouldn't say ignoring weight gain or strength training is the solution. Even when they add 10 pounds they're still far from being huge. I lean more to the theory that it's year round basketball from a young age which results in these sort of cumulative injuries if there's anything to single out. I'm not sure players overall are any heavier than they've ever been.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:59 am    Post subject:

^That doesn't mean I think Cousins lost enough. Dude was huge before, and after.

The idea that a lot of these guys are underweight perpetuates the idea that they all need to get stronger, and yet, can potentially aggravate injuries.

What is VERY VERY underrated about this is the timing of when they add the weight. There's already a natural inclination to add bulk over time. But when it's NCAA season to NCAA tournament to PreDraft training (where the weight is added) to PreDraft camp to Summer Pro League, IMHO, that's the equivalent of a 100-120 game season in the middle of all of that. No time to rest and let the body recover and adjust to the weight gain.

I was glad when they didn't go all haywire on Ingram gaining weight prior to his rookie season. But you're also right about burning out guys. Ingram was out for what, 20 games? I would pretty much expect something similar next season.

It's what makes Giannis, LeBron, and Garnett freakish.

Contrast this to Stephen Curry adding what, 10-15lbs over multiple years and he had at least 6 of 8 seasons over 74 games, despite severe ankle injury issues early on.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:09 am    Post subject:

manlisten wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
manlisten wrote:
I'm ready for the Trae Young hype to die down. He's not what people make him out to be.

What do people make him out to be? What do you see him as?


There was a time where I kept seeing his name thrown around for the #1 pick. People act like he's the next Steph or even just an elite shooter and playmaker. But you can't talk about his shooting and playmaking without bringing up his shot selection, inefficiency and turnovers yet that's what people always ignore. It's just annoying to me . When you watch his highlights he looks fantastic. But you have to see him in full games to really digest the type of player he is.

I once saw a compelling statistical analysis that turnovers from young initiators in college correlates strongly with superior pro performance. It's been posited that higher turnover rate is a positive sign of aggression from young players and that in general turnover rate decreases at the pro level with experience. Obviously that's "in general," so there are always some players who don't fit the general trend - maybe DLo and Young are those guys who drag the averages down lol.

I'll be honest with you, he impresses me more when I watch full Oklahoma games. Even as he faded down the stretch it still blew me away how much a little dude could distort defenses like he did because he could pull up from 40 feet in the blink of an eye and have a reasonable chance of hitting it, because he could flick the ball around the court with one-handed passes like he was Ben Simmons instead of a 6'1 170 pound kid.

There's no guarantee his shooting translates to the pros given his lack of size and lower release, there's no guarantee his passing vision will be as valuable against taller, longer pros, and he has had issues with decisionmaking and finishing at the rim as you note. And obviously he's going to be a negative on defense. I also think he has one of the best combos of handle, passing vision and touch, and shooting off the pick-up I've seen in a college player since Kyrie, and despite the recency bias of a playoffs in which Kyrie was injured, scoring lead guards who can function off-ball and on-ball with high volume are still incredibly valuable archetypes to build a team around.

Most little guards who like to shoot too much will never rise to the level of Lillard and Irving let alone Steph or Nash, but Young has the foundational talent to make those lofty outcomes a glimmer of a possibility, imo. If I'm at the top of the draft, I'd rather chase the glimmer of that high outcome archetype over most guys in this draft because players who are great at running an offense are your stars. That's why I favor Young and Doncic even if both have physical limitations that may lower Doncic's ceiling long-term and give Young a scary low floor.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:14 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:


The idea that a lot of these guys are underweight perpetuates the idea that they all need to get stronger, and yet, can potentially aggravate injuries.



In that sense it's a catch 22. Being underweight and lacking strength will absolutely increase injury risk. But so can putting too much stress from lifting on the body without enough time to recuperate before getting back to running and jumping. I've definitely experienced both. In general I'd have to say weight gain and strength training does far more good than harm however.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:35 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
manlisten wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
manlisten wrote:
I'm ready for the Trae Young hype to die down. He's not what people make him out to be.

What do people make him out to be? What do you see him as?


There was a time where I kept seeing his name thrown around for the #1 pick. People act like he's the next Steph or even just an elite shooter and playmaker. But you can't talk about his shooting and playmaking without bringing up his shot selection, inefficiency and turnovers yet that's what people always ignore. It's just annoying to me . When you watch his highlights he looks fantastic. But you have to see him in full games to really digest the type of player he is.

I once saw a compelling statistical analysis that turnovers from young initiators in college correlates strongly with superior pro performance. It's been posited that higher turnover rate is a positive sign of aggression from young players and that in general turnover rate decreases at the pro level with experience. Obviously that's "in general," so there are always some players who don't fit the general trend - maybe DLo and Young are those guys who drag the averages down lol.

I'll be honest with you, he impresses me more when I watch full Oklahoma games. Even as he faded down the stretch it still blew me away how much a little dude could distort defenses like he did because he could pull up from 40 feet in the blink of an eye and have a reasonable chance of hitting it, because he could flick the ball around the court with one-handed passes like he was Ben Simmons instead of a 6'1 170 pound kid.

There's no guarantee his shooting translates to the pros given his lack of size and lower release, there's no guarantee his passing vision will be as valuable against taller, longer pros, and he has had issues with decisionmaking and finishing at the rim as you note. And obviously he's going to be a negative on defense. I also think he has one of the best combos of handle, passing vision and touch, and shooting off the pick-up I've seen in a college player since Kyrie, and despite the recency bias of a playoffs in which Kyrie was injured, scoring lead guards who can function off-ball and on-ball with high volume are still incredibly valuable archetypes to build a team around.

Most little guards who like to shoot too much will never rise to the level of Lillard and Irving let alone Steph or Nash, but Young has the foundational talent to make those lofty outcomes a glimmer of a possibility, imo. If I'm at the top of the draft, I'd rather chase the glimmer of that high outcome archetype over most guys in this draft because players who are great at running an offense are your stars. That's why I favor Young and Doncic even if both have physical limitations that may lower Doncic's ceiling long-term and give Young a scary low floor.


I don't know what to make of that turnover theory . From what I've seen he just flat out makes horrible passes or there are times where he just plain cannot see over and thru the defense. I don't necessarily see this improving but who knows. Or he makes non passes and instead elects to take tough shots which are just as bad as turnovers. People dog his teammates and I'm not a student of their games but just from watching tape that Mannick guy seems like someone you want to throw it to if he's wide open for 3 but Trae would routinely ignore him.

I think his biggest strength will be transition offense. That's where his quickness really shines and his decision making improves as the right decision becomes more apparent. I'm really not sold on his shooting, I look at him as a guy who will more likely shoot you out of a game than into one, especially at the next level. This was evident to me even in some of his highest scoring games with Oklahoma. He'd get hot for 2-3 possessions and then get cold, make questionable decisions and you check the score and see he'd made no impact.

I know you only mentioned Kyrie in passing but that's what irks me about the Trae hype. Kyrie shot a ridiculous percentage from 3, granted in limited games but still he went on to show it wasn't a fluke in the NBA. Trae is just average by any measure. He had 10 games where he shot 20% or less from 3. I wouldn't compare him to any elite shooter.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:54 am    Post subject:

manlisten wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:


The idea that a lot of these guys are underweight perpetuates the idea that they all need to get stronger, and yet, can potentially aggravate injuries.



In that sense it's a catch 22. Being underweight and lacking strength will absolutely increase injury risk. But so can putting too much stress from lifting on the body without enough time to recuperate before getting back to running and jumping. I've definitely experienced both. In general I'd have to say weight gain and strength training does far more good than harm however.


I think they do more good than harm. I just don't think it should be done during the time when the body goes through repeated stress e.g. college, tournament, pre-draft, pro league. (This is part of the reason why 21-23 year olds are more seen as NBA ready, even when the skills haven't caught up).

Do it over a longer course of time and it's easier to reap the benefits. But, I'd rather have a guy be underweight and get pushed around a bit instead of repeated stress just from running without the recuperating time.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:54 am    Post subject:

Doncic.

There I said it. He wasn't mentioned anywhere on page 8 of his thread so here's my contribution. 😂

Are the Lakers still "interested" in him? 😆
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:00 am    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
Doncic.

There I said it. He wasn't mentioned anywhere on page 8 of his thread so here's my contribution. 😂

Are the Lakers still "interested" in him? 😆


Lol.
One would think Lakers are interested in a lot of lottery guys.
Fortunately only this one was leaked and we're graced with only one thread.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:06 am    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
Doncic.

There I said it. He wasn't mentioned anywhere on page 8 of his thread so here's my contribution. 😂

Are the Lakers still "interested" in him? 😆

I mentioned him in my post. Thanks for skimming, jeez.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:03 am    Post subject:

Ayton and Bagley have been my top picks since November...

But the lakers have seen something in Doncic...
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject:

Clippers apparently trying to move up to get Doncic
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:16 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
^That doesn't mean I think Cousins lost enough. Dude was huge before, and after.

The idea that a lot of these guys are underweight perpetuates the idea that they all need to get stronger, and yet, can potentially aggravate injuries.

What is VERY VERY underrated about this is the timing of when they add the weight. There's already a natural inclination to add bulk over time. But when it's NCAA season to NCAA tournament to PreDraft training (where the weight is added) to PreDraft camp to Summer Pro League, IMHO, that's the equivalent of a 100-120 game season in the middle of all of that. No time to rest and let the body recover and adjust to the weight gain.

I was glad when they didn't go all haywire on Ingram gaining weight prior to his rookie season. But you're also right about burning out guys. Ingram was out for what, 20 games? I would pretty much expect something similar next season.

It's what makes Giannis, LeBron, and Garnett freakish.

Contrast this to Stephen Curry adding what, 10-15lbs over multiple years and he had at least 6 of 8 seasons over 74 games, despite severe ankle injury issues early on.


Mike, Ingram's groin strain was a contact injury. Do you think that kind of injury can be prevented with a little more meat on the bones? Not asking rhetorically, I really don't know. Winslow is a brut and he came down pretty hard on BI. You really expect him to miss 20 games again?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:33 am    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
Clippers apparently trying to move up to get Doncic

The Logo knows, but he doesn't have the ammunition. Maaaaybe if Doncic falls to #4, Memphis could take #12/13 and swap Parsons for Tobias Harris so the Clips can select Luka
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:15 pm    Post subject:

If the Clippers get Doncic, almost guaranteed either Rivers or Teodosic would be available and we need a back up PG.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:53 pm    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
If the Clippers get Doncic, almost guaranteed either Rivers or Teodosic would be available and we need a back up PG.


No to Austin.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:54 pm    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
Clippers apparently trying to move up to get Doncic


If this is leaked, then West is probably after J cubed.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:30 pm    Post subject:

Ziggy wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
^That doesn't mean I think Cousins lost enough. Dude was huge before, and after.

The idea that a lot of these guys are underweight perpetuates the idea that they all need to get stronger, and yet, can potentially aggravate injuries.

What is VERY VERY underrated about this is the timing of when they add the weight. There's already a natural inclination to add bulk over time. But when it's NCAA season to NCAA tournament to PreDraft training (where the weight is added) to PreDraft camp to Summer Pro League, IMHO, that's the equivalent of a 100-120 game season in the middle of all of that. No time to rest and let the body recover and adjust to the weight gain.

I was glad when they didn't go all haywire on Ingram gaining weight prior to his rookie season. But you're also right about burning out guys. Ingram was out for what, 20 games? I would pretty much expect something similar next season.

It's what makes Giannis, LeBron, and Garnett freakish.

Contrast this to Stephen Curry adding what, 10-15lbs over multiple years and he had at least 6 of 8 seasons over 74 games, despite severe ankle injury issues early on.


Mike, Ingram's groin strain was a contact injury. Do you think that kind of injury can be prevented with a little more meat on the bones? Not asking rhetorically, I really don't know. Winslow is a brut and he came down pretty hard on BI. You really expect him to miss 20 games again?


Unless minutes are controlled, yes.

I just have this theory. You want guys who work hard on their games, but not to the point of overuse. Bynum sticks out to me. His injuries were due to contact too, but how was recovery? LAL practically sat him the entire rookie season.

Ingram had arguably the most skill progression I've seen in just one off-season. What's he doing? Already trying to replicate that for next season.

Age with controlled minutes kicks in as well. JC rookie year started D League then finished the season. Didn't see major skill jumps. 80+ games the next 3 seasons. Kuzma, Hart? Look at Randle now. Only JC had anything replicating rapid progression prior to his rookie year.

I think LAL sat Lonzo and Ingram longer than typical as well to play it safe. But you want the guys that work hard and then recover well.

Big difference from the age 22/23 guys vs the 18/19 year olds.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject:

So Memphis is interesting. For all the posters here that would rather have Doncic and want to trade Ingram for him, they just hired Ingram’s mentor Jerry Stackhouse as an assistant coach.

I’d personally rather have Ingram, but just throwing that out there.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:15 pm    Post subject:

Jsthornton7 wrote:
So Memphis is interesting. For all the posters here that would rather have Doncic and want to trade Ingram for him, they just hired Ingram’s mentor Jerry Stackhouse as an assistant coach.

I’d personally rather have Ingram, but just throwing that out there.


I was thinking about a Ingram, Deng, picks trade for Doncic. We get rid of Deng while keeping the number of young guys the same. It's probably pipe though and I personally prefer BI.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject:

PRLakeShow wrote:
Jsthornton7 wrote:
So Memphis is interesting. For all the posters here that would rather have Doncic and want to trade Ingram for him, they just hired Ingram’s mentor Jerry Stackhouse as an assistant coach.

I’d personally rather have Ingram, but just throwing that out there.


I was thinking about a Ingram, Deng, picks trade for Doncic. We get rid of Deng while keeping the number of young guys the same. It's probably pipe though and I personally prefer BI.

Memphis wants to get rid of Parsons using the #4, not take on more salary.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:19 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
PRLakeShow wrote:
Jsthornton7 wrote:
So Memphis is interesting. For all the posters here that would rather have Doncic and want to trade Ingram for him, they just hired Ingram’s mentor Jerry Stackhouse as an assistant coach.

I’d personally rather have Ingram, but just throwing that out there.


I was thinking about a Ingram, Deng, picks trade for Doncic. We get rid of Deng while keeping the number of young guys the same. It's probably pipe though and I personally prefer BI.

Memphis wants to get rid of Parsons using the #4, not take on more salary.


Wasn't thinking of Memphis specifically. Just thought Deng would have to be traded to a tanking team most probably and those are teams that have picks in Doncic range. Just a thought.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:52 am    Post subject:

ESPN compared him to a “better Lonzo Ball”.

I haven’t been paying attention to any of this year’s draftees to debate it.
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