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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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 Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | epak wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter, just asking: Are you saying you don't want Lonzo (or would get rid of him for Tatum)? Or are you just saying he needs to improve his shooting (which everyone agrees with already) and beating that poor horse to a pulp? |
Neither. I'm challenging the claim that we were a better offensive team with Ball on the floor. |
That's fair.
Would it be fair to say that your premise is that a "better offensive team" means the team scores more? |
Yes, as long as you account for efficiency (per 100 possessions or whatever you choose). |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Numbers aside, if you watch the Lakers play and don’t think there offense runs better with him on the floor, I don’t think you’re gonna like where the offense is headed under Luke Walton and with the current core. They played more like how they want to play with Zo on the floor, for better or worse. |
I have a problem with any argument that starts with "Numbers aside." Numbers are how we decide who wins and loses the game. There are no judges giving points for artistic impression. The game score is the ultimate metric.
If we score fewer points per 100 possessions with Ball on the floor, then the offense is not running better with him on the floor. It may be more pleasing esthetically, but there are no style points in the NBA.
Ball was an overall positive because of his defense. I won't take that away from him, and in fact his defense did a lot to change my attitude toward him a few months ago. But I have a problem with people claiming that we're a better offensive team with Ball on the floor. Maybe we will be in the future, but so far we are not. |
No there are no judges giving points but there are people who’s job is to judge the team. Coaches and FO executives and I’m sure they were judging everything they could. And they were clear about two things:
1) This year was more about development than wins and losses
2) The goal was to develop a culture around defense, pace, and ball movement
Those are facts. The team defended better, played faster, and passed the ball more with Zo on the floor. So, in the Lakers organizations opinion, the offense was operating more like how they want it to with him on the floor than when he was off it. It didn’t immediately translate to on court success, but the goals they set forth were reached. The culture was established and in large part(if not mostly) because of Zos on court play.
You may not think it’s better to have ball movement and pace but the organization quite clearly disagrees with you. So, as I said, you probably won’t enjoy watching the Lakers going forward if you don’t believe the offense was operating more like it should with Zo in the game opposed to out of it.
I doubt the organization is valuing the aesthetics of the offense over the effectiveness of it. They simply know it’s a process and building the culture has to happen before it translates to success. |
Fine, but all of that is irrelevant to what I’m talking about. In fact, you seem to be making up arguments (such as the highlighted) so that you can respond to them. |
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BynumForThree
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Joined: 27 Feb 2016
Posts: 1254
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| PG13 wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | There's no statistical argument to be made for Lonzo. Kinda insulting to Tatum to be honest. |
What? Lol
There is |
Let me rephrase that: There's no GOOD statistical argument to be made for Lonzo.
If there is I'll be waiting.
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If Brandon Knight were to come out, I would take him number 1 in the draft. - Magic Johnson Mar 27, 2011
For all of you out there questioning Jimmer Fredette of BYU, he is the real deal. - Magic Johnson Mar 20, 2011 |
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CamReddish
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Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Posts: 7937
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | | PG13 wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | There's no statistical argument to be made for Lonzo. Kinda insulting to Tatum to be honest. |
What? Lol
There is |
Let me rephrase that: There's no GOOD statistical argument to be made for Lonzo.
If there is I'll be waiting. |
They are all over this thread. You made the comment, so let's see you statistical argument for tatum.
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noahp45
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Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 6572
Location: Oceanside Ca
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Is Tatum that good or is it Boston's coach?
Look at the whole team.
Didn't Rozier, Brown and Smart all play out of their minds? What about Crowder and IT last year? |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| noahp45 wrote: | Is Tatum that good or is it Boston's coach?
Look at the whole team.
Didn't Rozier, Brown and Smart all play out of their minds? What about Crowder and IT last year? |
They may be Celtics who should burn in Hell, but Ainge and Stevens seem to have a knack for constructing a roster and getting the most out of their players. Let’s hope Magic and Pelinka do even better. |
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BigGameHames
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Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Numbers aside, if you watch the Lakers play and don’t think there offense runs better with him on the floor, I don’t think you’re gonna like where the offense is headed under Luke Walton and with the current core. They played more like how they want to play with Zo on the floor, for better or worse. |
I have a problem with any argument that starts with "Numbers aside." Numbers are how we decide who wins and loses the game. There are no judges giving points for artistic impression. The game score is the ultimate metric.
If we score fewer points per 100 possessions with Ball on the floor, then the offense is not running better with him on the floor. It may be more pleasing esthetically, but there are no style points in the NBA.
Ball was an overall positive because of his defense. I won't take that away from him, and in fact his defense did a lot to change my attitude toward him a few months ago. But I have a problem with people claiming that we're a better offensive team with Ball on the floor. Maybe we will be in the future, but so far we are not. |
No there are no judges giving points but there are people who’s job is to judge the team. Coaches and FO executives and I’m sure they were judging everything they could. And they were clear about two things:
1) This year was more about development than wins and losses
2) The goal was to develop a culture around defense, pace, and ball movement
Those are facts. The team defended better, played faster, and passed the ball more with Zo on the floor. So, in the Lakers organizations opinion, the offense was operating more like how they want it to with him on the floor than when he was off it. It didn’t immediately translate to on court success, but the goals they set forth were reached. The culture was established and in large part(if not mostly) because of Zos on court play.
You may not think it’s better to have ball movement and pace but the organization quite clearly disagrees with you. So, as I said, you probably won’t enjoy watching the Lakers going forward if you don’t believe the offense was operating more like it should with Zo in the game opposed to out of it.
I doubt the organization is valuing the aesthetics of the offense over the effectiveness of it. They simply know it’s a process and building the culture has to happen before it translates to success. |
Fine, but all of that is irrelevant to what I’m talking about. In fact, you seem to be making up arguments (such as the highlighted) so that you can respond to them. |
No I’m pointing at the fact Lonzo is creating the type of offense that the team wants to play. That’s a PGs job and he’s good at it. It’s a testament to the caliber of offensive player he is. You continually say he sucks on offense(despite the facts you are using not even supporting it) so I provided something to the contrary that says he may not be as bad as you say. Just because you’re obsessed with points per 100 doesn’t mean the rest of us have to be. A PG is supposed to be able to organize an offense and get it to play how the coach wants it to. He has proven to do that and do it well in his rookie year. That’s a positive trait of his offensive game. It’s relevant and you can’t say otherwise just cause it doesn’t support the narrative you’re pushing. We are debating the caliber of offensive player he is right?
Enough with the nitpicking arguments. Instead of actually trying to have a substantial debate you have proven to continually nitpick certain things in posts that you feel you can attack while ignoring the substance of that post. You’ve done it numerous times. Or you argue it’s moving the goalpost/irrelevant to the topic at hand(even when it isn’t) because you cannot successfully argue against it. Let me know when you wanna debate substantial basketball points and not semantics of what’s relevant or not. |
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splashmtn
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Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 3961
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | epak wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | epak wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter, just asking: Are you saying you don't want Lonzo (or would get rid of him for Tatum)? Or are you just saying he needs to improve his shooting (which everyone agrees with already) and beating that poor horse to a pulp? |
Neither. I'm challenging the claim that we were a better offensive team with Ball on the floor. |
That's fair.
Would it be fair to say that your premise is that a "better offensive team" means the team scores more? |
Yes, as long as you account for efficiency (per 100 possessions or whatever you choose). |
actually the rule goes, the more points you can score in 48 mins, the less efficient you have to be. assuming your team can play some defense. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Enough with the nitpicking arguments. Instead of actually trying to have a substantial debate you have proven to continually nitpick certain things in posts that you feel you can attack while ignoring the substance of that post. You’ve done it numerous times. Or you argue it’s moving the goalpost/irrelevant to the topic at hand(even when it isn’t) because you cannot successfully argue against it. Let me know when you wanna debate substantial basketball points and not semantics of what’s relevant or not. |
Okay, man. Carry on. |
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BigGameHames
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Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Enough with the nitpicking arguments. Instead of actually trying to have a substantial debate you have proven to continually nitpick certain things in posts that you feel you can attack while ignoring the substance of that post. You’ve done it numerous times. Or you argue it’s moving the goalpost/irrelevant to the topic at hand(even when it isn’t) because you cannot successfully argue against it. Let me know when you wanna debate substantial basketball points and not semantics of what’s relevant or not. |
Okay, man. Carry on. |
Exactly my point. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| splashmtn wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Yes, as long as you account for efficiency (per 100 possessions or whatever you choose). |
actually the rule goes, the more points you can score in 48 mins, the less efficient you have to be. assuming your team can play some defense. |
That’s true. A good defensive team can get away with being less efficient on offense, all else equal. Defense is why Ball was a net positive for us this year. |
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Boldarblood
Starting Rotation
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 296
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Lakers_Jester wrote: | | I'll be surprised if ball is even on the team next season |
You must be very easily surprised. That is honestly one of the more asinine comments I've seen on here.
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Lakers_Jester
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Joined: 17 Sep 2012
Posts: 5366
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| Boldarblood wrote: | | Lakers_Jester wrote: | | I'll be surprised if ball is even on the team next season |
You must be very easily surprised. That is honestly one of the more asinine comments I've seen on here.
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He will be traded |
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VicXLakers
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Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 11823
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| ^ the nostradumbass of LG |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:51 am Post subject: |
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So much shortsightedness here about players who just completed their rookie seasons and still are too young to buy a beer.
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From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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deal
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Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 14912
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | So much shortsightedness here about players who just completed their rookie seasons and still are too young to buy a beer. |
Yep, hopefully all having fun.
I do have a suggestion, players should not be allowed to buy
beer until they can hit FT's at a consistent rate. Let's say 80%
across 2 full seasons.....
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Texas_Pete
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12825
Location: Somewhere watching a Laker game
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Haven't read they this thread, but I am very happy with Lonzo. Just like the comparison with Kuz, the only thing I see Tatum doing better than Lonzo is score. Lonzo is a better passer, rebounder, and defender. If 10/7/7 is the worse Lonzo will ever be, I'll take it.
Lonzo will improve his body thru strength and conditioning which will lead to an overall improvement to his game. And he plays the type of game that makes even fringe players better. Tell you what, this will be an interesting summer for free agents. I guarantee you free agents will want to play with this kid. Cap space and Lonzo are two major reasons why we should be optimistic about making some noise in next year's playoffs. |
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Nash Vegas
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Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 7239
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| Texas_Pete wrote: | Haven't read they this thread, but I am very happy with Lonzo. Just like the comparison with Kuz, the only thing I see Tatum doing better than Lonzo is score. Lonzo is a better passer, rebounder, and defender. If 10/7/7 is the worse Lonzo will ever be, I'll take it.
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Tatum's a better shooter, better handles, better scorer.
Lonzo's a better passer, better rebounder, better defender.
They're really 2 different players, it's like trying to compare Paul Pierce to Jason Kidd.
Whether or not Lonzo was the better pick over Tatum for #2 is still TBD.
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noahp45
Star Player
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 6572
Location: Oceanside Ca
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | noahp45 wrote: | Is Tatum that good or is it Boston's coach?
Look at the whole team.
Didn't Rozier, Brown and Smart all play out of their minds? What about Crowder and IT last year? |
They may be Celtics who should burn in Hell, but Ainge and Stevens seem to have a knack for constructing a roster and getting the most out of their players. Let’s hope Magic and Pelinka do even better. |
they are doing good so far with Kuz, Hart and Ball. |
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Lakers_Jester
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Joined: 17 Sep 2012
Posts: 5366
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| VicXLakers wrote: | | ^ the nostradumbass of LG |
You gonna cry when ball and his fugly shot gets traded? |
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epak
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Posts: 34147
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| Lakers_Jester wrote: | | VicXLakers wrote: | | ^ the nostradumbass of LG |
You gonna cry when ball and his fugly shot gets traded? |
I'd be shocked and sad. But would get over it and root for whoever is here.
Would you cry if he doesn't get traded and root against him? |
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Lakers_Jester
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Joined: 17 Sep 2012
Posts: 5366
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | Lakers_Jester wrote: | | VicXLakers wrote: | | ^ the nostradumbass of LG |
You gonna cry when ball and his fugly shot gets traded? |
I'd be shocked and sad. But would get over it and root for whoever is here.
Would you cry if he doesn't get traded and root against him? |
I root for lonzo! Every night before I go to sleep I pray to baby jesus that lonzo becomes a better basketball player, like a wayyyyyyyyy better player, so he can eventually catch Tatum and hopefully surpass him. |
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Baron Von Humongous
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Posts: 32979
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | Lakers_Jester wrote: | | VicXLakers wrote: | | ^ the nostradumbass of LG |
You gonna cry when ball and his fugly shot gets traded? |
I'd be shocked and sad. But would get over it and root for whoever is here.
Would you cry if he doesn't get traded and root against him? |
Ron Howard voice: "He already does."
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Lakers_Jester
Star Player
Joined: 17 Sep 2012
Posts: 5366
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | epak wrote: | | Lakers_Jester wrote: | | VicXLakers wrote: | | ^ the nostradumbass of LG |
You gonna cry when ball and his fugly shot gets traded? |
I'd be shocked and sad. But would get over it and root for whoever is here.
Would you cry if he doesn't get traded and root against him? |
Ron Howard voice: "He already does." |
Why don't you say that to my face? I'll meet you in front of staples center at 7pm. I'll be the guy wearing the lonzo ball jersey and the big baller brand shoes. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Lakers_Jester wrote: | | VicXLakers wrote: | | ^ the nostradumbass of LG |
You gonna cry when ball and his fugly shot gets traded? |
If it happens, the likely scenario would be Lebron signing with the Lakers on the condition that we sign PG and trade for Leonard and/or some other player. Basically, it would be a repeat of what happened when he went home to Cleveland. Ball, Ingram, Kuzma, and Hart would become trade pieces as we tried to build a superteam around Lebron.
This could happen, and in fact there are people who are worried that this is exactly the way it will play out. (There are other threads about this, so I will just leave it at that.) Otherwise, I don't see Ball going anywhere for at least another year. The front office will give him at least that much time to get his shot straightened out. |
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