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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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The Juggernaut wrote: | GOODRICH25 wrote: | thats cool. now do a Lebron without Wade&Kyrie |
Exactly. How many 50 win teams did Bron beat without his super teams that included prime Wade, Bosh, Love, and Kyrie? |
That's a reasonable question. I would take it another step. Other than people liking nice, round numbers, why is some arbitrary cutoff (50-win team) the best, or even a good, way to measure the level of competition a player faced?
To me, that just seems a superficial approach that doesn't really tell me much, especially about the impact that any single player had in those games. |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26085
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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The Juggernaut wrote: | GOODRICH25 wrote: | thats cool. now do a Lebron without Wade&Kyrie |
Exactly. How many 50 win teams did Bron beat without his super teams that included prime Wade, Bosh, Love, and Kyrie?
FUN FACT: In the 2001 & 2002 Western Conference playoffs (Rounds 1-3) Kobe Bryant averaged more points per game than Shaq did.
Kobe 2001 & 2002 WC Playoffs: 31.6 PPG & 26.6 PPG
Shaq 2001 & 2002 WC Playoffs: 29.3 PPG & 26.4 PPG
Yet somehow the Kobe haters want to give him 0 credit for those years. Unbelievable |
Main reason was because Phil took advantage of the matchups in the Finals. Kobe got them through the West, but when Shaq was matched up against the Eastern centers Phil changed it up to exploit them and Kobe sacrificed for the good of the team. And hey, it worked 3 out of 4 times. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | The Juggernaut wrote: | GOODRICH25 wrote: | thats cool. now do a Lebron without Wade&Kyrie |
Exactly. How many 50 win teams did Bron beat without his super teams that included prime Wade, Bosh, Love, and Kyrie? |
That's a reasonable question. I would take it another step. Other than people liking nice, round numbers, why is some arbitrary cutoff (50-win team) the best, or even a good, way to measure the level of competition a player faced?
To me, that just seems a superficial approach that doesn't really tell me much, especially about the impact that any single player had in those games. |
Because that cutoff fits the narrative whereas a much bigger cutoff like 60 wins, doesn't. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | activeverb wrote: | The Juggernaut wrote: | GOODRICH25 wrote: | thats cool. now do a Lebron without Wade&Kyrie |
Exactly. How many 50 win teams did Bron beat without his super teams that included prime Wade, Bosh, Love, and Kyrie? |
That's a reasonable question. I would take it another step. Other than people liking nice, round numbers, why is some arbitrary cutoff (50-win team) the best, or even a good, way to measure the level of competition a player faced?
To me, that just seems a superficial approach that doesn't really tell me much, especially about the impact that any single player had in those games. |
Because that cutoff fits the narrative whereas a much bigger cutoff like 60 wins, doesn't. |
Well, I agree that much of the statistical analysis in these discussions is designed to produce a preferred outcome, rather than to better understand what actually happened.
I have no idea how things change if you make the win mark 47, 49, 52, 55, or whatever. But the fact that a slight change in the win mark could have a impact on the result shows me it's a flawed method.
Whatever win number you put into the equation, and whatever the result, I wouldn't give it much significance. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | activeverb wrote: | The Juggernaut wrote: | GOODRICH25 wrote: | thats cool. now do a Lebron without Wade&Kyrie |
Exactly. How many 50 win teams did Bron beat without his super teams that included prime Wade, Bosh, Love, and Kyrie? |
That's a reasonable question. I would take it another step. Other than people liking nice, round numbers, why is some arbitrary cutoff (50-win team) the best, or even a good, way to measure the level of competition a player faced?
To me, that just seems a superficial approach that doesn't really tell me much, especially about the impact that any single player had in those games. |
Because that cutoff fits the narrative whereas a much bigger cutoff like 60 wins, doesn't. |
Well, I agree that much of the statistical analysis in these discussions is designed to produce a preferred outcome, rather than to better understand what actually happened.
I have no idea how things change if you make the win mark 47, 49, 52, 55, or whatever. But the fact that a slight change in the win mark could have a impact on the result shows me it's a flawed method.
Whatever win number you put into the equation, and whatever the result, I wouldn't give it much significance. |
Yeah. I'm going off of memory here, but I believe Lebron is 3-4 against 60-win teams in the playoffs, and Kobe is 2-5, while MJ was 7-2.
Ratchet that up to 70-wins threshold, and Lebron is undefeated and MJ+Kobe are winless.
So at 50 it's Kobe, at 60 it's MJ, and at 70 it's Lebron.
LOL. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | activeverb wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | activeverb wrote: | The Juggernaut wrote: | GOODRICH25 wrote: | thats cool. now do a Lebron without Wade&Kyrie |
Exactly. How many 50 win teams did Bron beat without his super teams that included prime Wade, Bosh, Love, and Kyrie? |
That's a reasonable question. I would take it another step. Other than people liking nice, round numbers, why is some arbitrary cutoff (50-win team) the best, or even a good, way to measure the level of competition a player faced?
To me, that just seems a superficial approach that doesn't really tell me much, especially about the impact that any single player had in those games. |
Because that cutoff fits the narrative whereas a much bigger cutoff like 60 wins, doesn't. |
Well, I agree that much of the statistical analysis in these discussions is designed to produce a preferred outcome, rather than to better understand what actually happened.
I have no idea how things change if you make the win mark 47, 49, 52, 55, or whatever. But the fact that a slight change in the win mark could have a impact on the result shows me it's a flawed method.
Whatever win number you put into the equation, and whatever the result, I wouldn't give it much significance. |
Yeah. I'm going off of memory here, but I believe Lebron is 3-4 against 60-win teams in the playoffs, and Kobe is 2-5, while MJ was 7-2.
Ratchet that up to 70-wins threshold, and Lebron is undefeated and MJ+Kobe are winless.
So at 50 it's Kobe, at 60 it's MJ, and at 70 it's Lebron.
LOL. |
I don't care about any of that. I've looked at a bunch of data on this topic, evaluating the level of competition and teammates the GOAT short listers had, and with rare exception they pretty much all had about as much team success as I would have expected them to. Overall, none of them did more with less; none of them did less with more.
So I don't care as much as I used to about team success in ranking them; it's more about their personal contribution to that success.
I'm always open to hearing a different point of view, but it's got be based on something more than a superficial stat grab. |
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tlim Star Player
Joined: 26 Jun 2002 Posts: 6648
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Look, Lebron for the most part, was in the JV conference, which made it much easier to get to the finals. So the finals stat is really misleading.
The east has won a total of *6* times out of the last *18* finals.
And we know how even those few times that the east won, that they were somewhat tainted: Miami's with Wade's flop mastery, 2004 no call hackathon with the Pistons, and the injury that allowed Lebron to win 1 against the Warriors.
The numbers are striking. Lebron had seriously stacked teams, but against the Warriors, no one compares. If he were in the West, he would have reached the finals nearly never.
So in that sense, I agree with Kobe. Getting to the finals means nothing, especially in the leastern conference. |
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LakerSanity Moderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 33474 Location: Long Beach, California
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Kobe solidified himself as a top 10 all time player. For good or bad, how he behaves post-retirement is going to directly reflect where he shifts within that range. I'd like to see more ambassador Kobe without the subtle jabs.
I also think that, outside of Lakers' fans, probably 90% of NBA fans take Lebron over Kobe. That may drop a bit when it comes to former NBA players, but my point is that the discussion is relatively over. Just another reason for Kobe to move on from it. No one wins these things anyway. Just makes some people look arrogant and others petty. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service
Twitter: @DeleteThisPost |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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^
I agree with you. I thought Kobe would go more the MJ/Dr. J route, where he would be an above-the-fray ambassador. I'm not sure why he is mixing it up with people on Twitter; that seems like a game no one can win, but maybe he's going to go more the Magic Johnson/Shaq attention-whore route. |
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trablos Star Player
Joined: 10 May 2017 Posts: 3020
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | ^
I agree with you. I thought Kobe would go more the MJ/Dr. J route, where he would be an above-the-fray ambassador. I'm not sure why he is mixing it up with people on Twitter; that seems like a game no one can win, but maybe he's going to go more the Magic Johnson/Shaq attention-whore route. |
Have you even been following Kobe since he retired? He's constantly giving advice and praising the current talents, has scheduled workouts this summer, and is now producing hugely beneficial analysis which Tatum and Mitchell said they greatly appreciative of. Yall getting so bent up because the man answered some questions in an interview.
The narrative only exists in your heads... |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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trablos wrote: | activeverb wrote: | ^
I agree with you. I thought Kobe would go more the MJ/Dr. J route, where he would be an above-the-fray ambassador. I'm not sure why he is mixing it up with people on Twitter; that seems like a game no one can win, but maybe he's going to go more the Magic Johnson/Shaq attention-whore route. |
Have you even been following Kobe since he retired? He's constantly giving advice and praising the current talents, has scheduled workouts this summer, and is now producing hugely beneficial analysis which Tatum and Mitchell said they greatly appreciative of. Yall getting so bent up because the man answered some questions in an interview.
The narrative only exists in your heads... |
No, I haven't been following Kobe. By and large, my interest in him ended when his basketball career did. Only time he comes to mind for me is (1) when I am engaged on threads in LG where his name comes up in a historical context; or (2) when he does something that gets such media attention that it reaches me by osmosis. So only things I know about him since his retirement is he won an Oscar and he's been getting into squabbles.
I am not surprised if the people who follow him on a day to day basis have a different perception than someone like me, who only knows the stuff that gets enough attention that even non-basketball fans may hear about it. |
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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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av...lol. you are such a kobe hater. what in the world are you doing on these forums? |
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PRLakeShow Franchise Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2016 Posts: 10460
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Well someone got exposed... |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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SuperboyReformed wrote: | av...lol. you are such a kobe hater. what in the world are you doing on these forums? |
Hello, my fellow Laker fan. I've made a decision not to engage with people who use inflammatory language like hater. I just think that makes the world an unnecessarily unpleasant place, and it's not an energy I want to be part of. If you would like to have a discussion using more civil language, I'll be happy to talk with you. |
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Drifts Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004 Posts: 28374
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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SuperboyReformed wrote: | av...lol. you are such a kobe hater. what in the world are you doing on these forums? |
I am guessing he's just commenting based on "osmosis" _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Let me try this once more. Talking at and about each other, especially using inflammatory terms, is going to start getting people suspended. Please allow us to treat you as grownups by acting like grownups. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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PRLakeShow wrote: | Well someone got exposed... |
If you are talking about me, there's nothing to expose. Because I've never hidden anything.
My view about Kobe has always been consistent. My personal top 3 players of all time are MJ, Kareem and Magic. After that I have a tier of people who I consider more or less equivalent: Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Duncan, and Lebron. So I place Kobe somewhere between the 4th and 8th best player in NBA history.
I enjoy talking about the goat rankings but it's an intellectual Pursuit for me. I have no particular rooting interest in how anyone comes out. I don't care if MJ, LeBron, Kobe, or Oscar Robertson is regarded as the goat by someone. I'm only interested in the reasoning for their choice.
I am pretty indifferent to all NBA players outside of enjoying their performance on the court. That goes for Kobe, LeBron, Shaq, MJ, and all the rest. Since his retirement, Kobe interests me about as much as Shaq and MJ have since their retirement. They are celebrity figures who I don't pay much attention to but they get so much attention that I get drips and drabs about them by osmosis. My interest in them since their retirement is on par with my interest in a famous singer or movie star who I'm vaguely aware of. But I don't consider any of them significant enough to spend much time thinking about.
So that is the perspective from which my opinion comes. If you don't like my perspective, that's entirely cool with me
Last edited by activeverb on Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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PRLakeShow Franchise Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2016 Posts: 10460
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | PRLakeShow wrote: | Well someone got exposed... |
If you are talking about me, there's nothing to expose. Because I've never hidden anything.
My view about Kobe has always been consistent. My personal top 3 players of all time are MJ, Kareem and Magic. After that I have a tear of people who I consider more or less equivalent: Kobe, Shaq, bird, Duncan, and LeBron.
I enjoy talking about the goat rankings but it's an intellectual Pursuit for me. I have no particular rooting interests and how anyone comes out
I am pretty indifferent to all NBA players outside of enjoying their performance on the court. That goes for Kobe, LeBron, Shaq, MJ, and all the rest. Since his retirement, Kobe interest me about as much as Shaq and MJ have since their retirement. They are celebrity figures who I don't pay much attention to but they get so much attention that I get drips and drabs about them by osmosis |
Has nothing to do with your GOAT rankings. You mentioned only seeing Kobe's name in LG or when he wants attention (media or twitter beefs). Yet did you watch the playoffs at all? Did you see the countless of promos that the commentators made for Kobe's new show? Have you watched those videos at all? He goes in depth on certain players and how they played particular sequences. He has done them for Tatum, Mitchell, and others. They are pretty damn good, good for basketball and the NBA in general. I'm guessing you forgot these or they just didn't help whatever agenda you planned on having today. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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No, I barely watched playoffs at all. I didn't particularly care which team won, So I decided I would wait until the finals to see if it was a decent matchup.
when it was the Cavs and warriors, I thought the Cavs would be steamrolled in for five games, and it would be boring, uncompetitive series to watch. I'm too busy to waste time watching bad basketball between two teams I have no rooting interest in. I happened to be at the gym on the night of the first game, and saw the last 5 minutes of it on the TV at the gym. After that loss, I decided I'd only watch the playoffs After the Cavs had managed to win a game. Since they didn't, I didn't watch.
Since the end of the regular season, my participation on this board has been limited primarily to free agents and historical stuff, like goat rankings.
Like I said, I have nothing to hide, because I have no agenda I'm selling. My primary interest on this board is pretty nerdy, like evaluating the best ways to measure the talent that a superstar plays with. |
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Darth Los Angeles Star Player
Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Posts: 2181
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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This thread is pure comedy...
Kobe said some real ish and people want to label him jealous, petty, etc...
The facts are that LeBron is probably the basketball equivalent to Peyton Manning in that he has his own offense which is easily exposed if conditions are altered even just the slightest...
Kobe (speaking from experience) said that LeBron needs to adjust to his teammates instead of just throwing the ball at them when they are open.
The LeBron fans cannot get past statistics so they bash Kobe for giving a battlefield perspective...
I'm taking Kobe over LeBron each and every opportunity possible simply because LeBron is a quitter. He quits and he cries and he flops and he blames others for his lack of accepting the challenge to be greater than his hardships...
Kobe checked him... Figure it out and stop crying all the time... And if you can't figure it out... Then try something you've never done before...
MAMBA _________________ “There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level.” ―Bruce Lee |
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PRLakeShow Franchise Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2016 Posts: 10460
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | No, I barely watched playoffs at all. I didn't particularly care which team won, So I decided I would wait until the finals to see if it was a decent matchup.
when it was the Cavs and warriors, I thought the Cavs would be steamrolled in for five games, and it would be boring, uncompetitive series to watch. I happened to be at the gym on the night of the first game, and saw the last 5 minutes of it on the TV at the gym. After that loss, I decided I'd only watch the playoffs After the Cavs had managed to win a game. Since they didn't, I didn't watch.
Since the end of the regular season, my participation on this board has been limited primarily to free agents and historical stuff, like goat rankings.
Like I said, I have nothing to hide, because I have no agenda I'm selling. My primary interest on this board is pretty nerdy, like evaluating the best ways to measure the talent that a superstar plays with. |
Maybe inform yourself a bit more before you make a silly post like this:
Quote: |
^
I agree with you. I thought Kobe would go more the MJ/Dr. J route, where he would be an above-the-fray ambassador. I'm not sure why he is mixing it up with people on Twitter; that seems like a game no one can win, but maybe he's going to go more the Magic Johnson/Shaq attention-whore route. |
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The Juggernaut Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 4572
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Darth Los Angeles wrote: | This thread is pure comedy...
Kobe said some real ish and people want to label him jealous, petty, etc...
The facts are that LeBron is probably the basketball equivalent to Peyton Manning in that he has his own offense which is easily exposed if conditions are altered even just the slightest...
Kobe (speaking from experience) said that LeBron needs to adjust to his teammates instead of just throwing the ball at them when they are open.
The LeBron fans cannot get past statistics so they bash Kobe for giving a battlefield perspective...
I'm taking Kobe over LeBron each and every opportunity possible simply because LeBron is a quitter. He quits and he cries and he flops and he blames others for his lack of accepting the challenge to be greater than his hardships...
Kobe checked him... Figure it out and stop crying all the time... And if you can't figure it out... Then try something you've never done before...
MAMBA |
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Chronicle Retired Number
Joined: 21 Jul 2012 Posts: 31930 Location: Manhattan
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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_________________ Kobe |
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CamReddish Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2015 Posts: 7783
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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But seriously. Lebron is a better Basketball player than Kobe. Also a better businessman because he is making way more money. Lol _________________ Previously LBJ23 |
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PrairieAve Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2009 Posts: 4209
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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I just can't see 05-06 or 06-07 Kobe, with the entire 2018 Cavaliers players and staff minus Lebron, getting swept by anybody (in 2006-07 or 2018). _________________ -Avenue of the Champions- -RIP Dr Buss- #824 |
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