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pjiddy Retired Number
Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 29016
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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The Valkyrie...save our season!! |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Judah wrote: | Can't wait for him to be cleared. Ideally, you wouldn't expect a rookie to be in the rotation, but he could be a big help for the team as a pick and pop option. Imagine he and Kuz playing together on the second unit Hurry back, Moe! Hurry back! |
I'm looking forward to his balls-to-the-wall energy even with the inevitable rookie foul outs and passes to nowhere.
A Rondo/KCP/Svi/Kuz/Wagner second unit could be a lot of fun later in the year. _________________ Under New Management |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Judah wrote: | Can't wait for him to be cleared. Ideally, you wouldn't expect a rookie to be in the rotation, but he could be a big help for the team as a pick and pop option. Imagine he and Kuz playing together on the second unit Hurry back, Moe! Hurry back! |
I'm looking forward to his balls-to-the-wall energy even with the inevitable rookie foul outs and passes to nowhere.
A Rondo/KCP/Svi/Kuz/Wagner second unit could be a lot of fun later in the year. |
I'm looking forward to his quick hands on defense. |
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VincentTH Sixth Man
Joined: 25 Apr 2012 Posts: 92
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Watching last night game was a pain: The Blazers just overwhelmed Kuz, while Zu sat on the pine!!!!
I agree, Luke must lose the Small Ball 5 thingy, or we will be in for a long season!!! |
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Megaton Retired Number
Joined: 18 Feb 2015 Posts: 25624
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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MJST wrote: | Don't expect much from Mo when he returns. He didn't get to scrimmage till today, has never played a game at NBA speed as of yet, and has yet to step foot on an NBA court.
Expecting him to help early on, even in games like last night is a set up for disappointment.
Zubac at this current time is more of a help than Mo, and Luke isn't playing him either because he's obsessed with the idea of Kuzma at the 5 like D'Antoni was obsessed with Wesley Johnson at the 4, like Byron Scott was obsessed with Ryan Kelly at the 3. |
I don’t expect Mo to contribute immediately but I would currently rather have him on the court over the likes of Beasley/Lance/Zu, etc. _________________ Darvin Scam: https://media.tenor.com/images/3c15249955860a4b16b59e8ae035fb75/tenor.gif |
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jodeke Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67312 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Would be nice if #25 turns out to be as good as #27 _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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jodeke wrote: | Would be nice if #25 turns out to be as good as #27 |
Or #30 _________________ Under New Management |
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2019 Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Dec 2014 Posts: 10786
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | Would be nice if #25 turns out to be as good as #27 |
Or #30 |
or as 23 |
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leor_77 Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Mar 2012 Posts: 21920
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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jodeke wrote: | Would be nice if #25 turns out to be as good as #27 |
Jordan Hill? |
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KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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Gotta get him in games so I can get used to hearing "Vagner", I'm still calling him Wagner. lol
Great sign that he's scrimmaging. he must have been tired in the other workout vid closing out on Coby Karl. Looked fine in that scrimmage |
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LuciusAllen Star Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 5786
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:27 am Post subject: |
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MJST wrote: | Luke isn't playing him either because he's obsessed with the idea of Kuzma at the 5 like D'Antoni was obsessed with Wesley Johnson at the 4, like Byron Scott was obsessed with Ryan Kelly at the 3. |
Geez, so dramatic. Luke isn't obsessed with anything lineup-related. He may be earnestly trying to figure out how to get Ingram, Lebron and Kuzma on the floor at the same time, and, well, how can that be done? Somebody has to defend bigs in the post.
Rather than hyperbolic emoting, start drafting some tactical possibilities and when you are confident in them, send them to Luke. |
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Four Decade Bandwagon Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2014 Posts: 8127
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:22 am Post subject: |
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What are realistic expectations for Wagner? Have seen the college clips and SL mins and read the draft analysis.
During the draft process I saw him compared to K. Olynyk. Fair?
Wagner showed lots of energy and quick hands, but can he battle in the paint? Protect the rim? Reliable defensive switches? Will he be able to be a legitimate NBA center rotation player. Or is his game too finesse driven? His skillset does not seem to be a above average defender. Especially quick rotations or switching on perimeter plays.
When healthy can he be realistically providing quality backup mins or is that wishful thinking?
Curious of opinions of him providing a quality 15-18mins a night. Being a defensive presence? Getting rebounds? Lakers do not need a center to finish breaks, they need one to battle the boards so someone can secure the boards to start the break.
Can Wagner fit that role? I'm not seeing it. Help me see it.
At the moment I would be thrilled if he could become a Rambis or Madsen
type player with a decent jumper. |
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KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:32 am Post subject: |
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I don’t think he’s strong enough to be that guy yet —- he’ll probably never be a great rebounder, but he may be below avg year 1 like we’ve seen with rookie bigs. They all need to get stronger..
he’s a floor space. Year 1 hopefully he’s Channing Frye type with more skills.
A good amount of new-era PF skills in a 7foot body |
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Sentient Meat Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014 Posts: 12978
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | What are realistic expectations for Wagner? Have seen the college clips and SL mins and read the draft analysis.
During the draft process I saw him compared to K. Olynyk. Fair?
Wagner showed lots of energy and quick hands, but can he battle in the paint? Protect the rim? Reliable defensive switches? Will he be able to be a legitimate NBA center rotation player. Or is his game too finesse driven? His skillset does not seem to be a above average defender. Especially quick rotations or switching on perimeter plays.
When healthy can he be realistically providing quality backup mins or is that wishful thinking?
Curious of opinions of him providing a quality 15-18mins a night. Being a defensive presence? Getting rebounds? Lakers do not need a center to finish breaks, they need one to battle the boards so someone can secure the boards to start the break.
Can Wagner fit that role? I'm not seeing it. Help me see it.
At the moment I would be thrilled if he could become a Rambis or Madsen
type player with a decent jumper. |
He seems flimsier than those guys, with a weak base... but he's very skilled and will get stronger with time. He will provide more offensively from range... but I don't think he'll be a strong interior presence this season.
He'll probably be more like a longer Kuzma. |
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KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Sentient Meat wrote: | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | What are realistic expectations for Wagner? Have seen the college clips and SL mins and read the draft analysis.
During the draft process I saw him compared to K. Olynyk. Fair?
Wagner showed lots of energy and quick hands, but can he battle in the paint? Protect the rim? Reliable defensive switches? Will he be able to be a legitimate NBA center rotation player. Or is his game too finesse driven? His skillset does not seem to be a above average defender. Especially quick rotations or switching on perimeter plays.
When healthy can he be realistically providing quality backup mins or is that wishful thinking?
Curious of opinions of him providing a quality 15-18mins a night. Being a defensive presence? Getting rebounds? Lakers do not need a center to finish breaks, they need one to battle the boards so someone can secure the boards to start the break.
Can Wagner fit that role? I'm not seeing it. Help me see it.
At the moment I would be thrilled if he could become a Rambis or Madsen
type player with a decent jumper. |
He seems flimsier than those guys, with a weak base... but he's very skilled and will get stronger with time. He will provide more offensively from range... but I don't think he'll be a strong interior presence this season.
He'll probably be more like a longer Kuzma. |
same length but Moe is legit 7ft |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:48 am Post subject: |
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KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | I don’t think he’s strong enough to be that guy yet —- he’ll probably never be a great rebounder, but he may be below avg year 1 like we’ve seen with rookie bigs. They all need to get stronger..
he’s a floor space. Year 1 hopefully he’s Channing Frye type with more skills.
A good amount of new-era PF skills in a 7foot body |
All good points. Ideally he'd take a full year in the G-League not only to get gradually used to banging with grown men (phrasing), but also to clean up a lot of the junk in his offensive game.
Because SL Moe looks like a walking turnover to me if he's doing anything other than catch and shoot against NBA defenders. He certainly has time and the potential to refine some of his behind the back dribble into a fadeaway jumper moves, but right now his dribble drive game is an offensive foul waiting to happen and he's going to get blocked a bunch in the post.
Having a PnP threat and an annoyingly high motor try hard kid as a backup this year should help in spots, though. And if he achieves some of his offensive promise, the Lakers might be able to get away with a cheap center rotation of McGee and Moe next season, as well, while committing money to a superstar wing. We'll see. _________________ Under New Management |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:59 am Post subject: |
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Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | What are realistic expectations for Wagner? Have seen the college clips and SL mins and read the draft analysis.
During the draft process I saw him compared to K. Olynyk. Fair? |
I can see why the comparison is made, but Olynyk shoots like a guard and has done so for a long time, even during his Gonzaga days. Wagner is a more physical offensive player; more willing to drive, more willing to post.
Quote: | Wagner showed lots of energy and quick hands, but can he battle in the paint? Protect the rim? Reliable defensive switches? Will he be able to be a legitimate NBA center rotation player. Or is his game too finesse driven? His skillset does not seem to be a above average defender. Especially quick rotations or switching on perimeter plays. |
When you say lots of energy, I translate that as motor, and yes, he does have a lot of that. I think both he and Kuzma have similar physical tools and traits. Good size at the position. Average length. Capable of moving feet well against face-up isolation players, but both with weaker post bases against bigger guys. Both guys compensate with activity (motor).
Think of it this way. If Kuzma was a 4, the next easiest position for him would be 3. Wagner, OTOH, is a 5 with 4 skills on both ends of the floor. Does that make sense?
Neither guy puts up big numbers in terms of steal rate or block percentage. Moe at least has some awareness for backline defensive help. Kuz recognizes late and sometimes sticks to his man too close which makes him late on the defensive help.
Quote: | When healthy can he be realistically providing quality backup mins or is that wishful thinking?
Curious of opinions of him providing a quality 15-18mins a night. Being a defensive presence? Getting rebounds? Lakers do not need a center to finish breaks, they need one to battle the boards so someone can secure the boards to start the break. |
I'm thinking more of 10 minutes. Guys like Kuzma and Moe that don't have a natural knack for deflections or high block rate, you just want them to be positional defenders; buy time for help if necessary, and contest shots. That's all you can ask. Both Kuz and Wagner were fairly average rebounders at the NCAA level too.
Quote: | At the moment I would be thrilled if he could become a Rambis or Madsen type player with a decent jumper. |
He's WAYYYYYY more skilled on the offensive end. That jumper isn't just decent, it's legit. I think it's a matter of time for him to adjust to less touches compared what he got in Michigan. It helps that he constantly talks/communicates on the floor. I don't care what it's about. I do care that it helps him get on the same page on his teammates. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:59 am Post subject: |
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Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | What are realistic expectations for Wagner? Have seen the college clips and SL mins and read the draft analysis.
During the draft process I saw him compared to K. Olynyk. Fair? |
I can see why the comparison is made, but Olynyk shoots like a guard and has done so for a long time, even during his Gonzaga days. Wagner is a more physical offensive player; more willing to drive, more willing to post.
Quote: | Wagner showed lots of energy and quick hands, but can he battle in the paint? Protect the rim? Reliable defensive switches? Will he be able to be a legitimate NBA center rotation player. Or is his game too finesse driven? His skillset does not seem to be a above average defender. Especially quick rotations or switching on perimeter plays. |
When you say lots of energy, I translate that as motor, and yes, he does have a lot of that. I think both he and Kuzma have similar physical tools and traits. Good size at the position. Average length. Capable of moving feet well against face-up isolation players, but both with weaker post bases against bigger guys. Both guys compensate with activity (motor).
Think of it this way. If Kuzma was a 4, the next easiest position for him would be 3. Wagner, OTOH, is a 5 with 4 skills on both ends of the floor. Does that make sense?
Neither guy puts up big numbers in terms of steal rate or block percentage. Moe at least has some awareness for backline defensive help. Kuz recognizes late and sometimes sticks to his man too close which makes him late on the defensive help.
Quote: | When healthy can he be realistically providing quality backup mins or is that wishful thinking?
Curious of opinions of him providing a quality 15-18mins a night. Being a defensive presence? Getting rebounds? Lakers do not need a center to finish breaks, they need one to battle the boards so someone can secure the boards to start the break. |
I'm thinking more of 10 minutes. Guys like Kuzma and Moe that don't have a natural knack for deflections or high block rate, you just want them to be positional defenders; buy time for help if necessary, and contest shots. That's all you can ask. Both Kuz and Wagner were fairly average rebounders at the NCAA level too.
Quote: | At the moment I would be thrilled if he could become a Rambis or Madsen type player with a decent jumper. |
He's WAYYYYYY more skilled on the offensive end. That jumper isn't just decent, it's legit. I think it's a matter of time for him to adjust to less touches compared what he got in Michigan. It helps that he constantly talks/communicates on the floor. I don't care what it's about. I do care that it helps him get on the same page on his teammates. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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Mike, you're underselling Moe's hands on defense at Michigan and the increased stocks we saw in SL.
Kuz posted a 1.1% steal rate as a junior at Utah. Moe bested that as a freshman and posted 2%+ steal rates as a soph and junior. _________________ Under New Management |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Mike, you're underselling Moe's hands on defense at Michigan and the increased stocks we saw in SL.
Kuz posted a 1.1% steal rate as a junior at Utah. Moe bested that as a freshman and posted 2%+ steal rates as a soph and junior. |
Those hands. Those hands. Get these hands!
He displayed them well in SL as well. |
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Inspector Gadget Retired Number
Joined: 18 Apr 2016 Posts: 46490
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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I hope he makes a big difference when he returns, he can be like Kurt Rambis someone who brings energy and does the dirty work.
Last edited by Inspector Gadget on Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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24Legend007 Star Player
Joined: 05 May 2018 Posts: 1789
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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VincentTH wrote: | Watching last night game was a pain: The Blazers just overwhelmed Kuz, while Zu sat on the pine!!!!
I agree, Luke must lose the Small Ball 5 thingy, or we will be in for a long season!!! |
I don't think we have to lose it. But when we are being overwhelmed, you have to throw a bigger body in there for a few to deter. That I can agree with. |
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Ziggy Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 12712
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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With the suspensions, this would be a good time for Mo to get some run as our backup 5. |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Ziggy wrote: | With the suspensions, this would be a good time for Mo to get some run as our backup 5. |
Read he's still not ready to return. |
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LakersMD Star Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2003 Posts: 8014
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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Heal up quickly, Moe, and take that backup spot so that we never have to see Zu or Kuz play there ever again. |
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