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watchME
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 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Why is it a bad idea to start a small ball lineup. |
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| Car54 wrote: | | The Lebrons wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | Doesnt the advantages of Lebron at center out weight the disadvantages? Lakers film Room Spoke about this on their last podcast. |
I think it's another case of "this is the way we've always done it" as far as starting a traditional center (although Lebron has barely played center in his career, to be fair). The idea of wanting to play your best 5 man line-up as much as possible isn't exactly crazy.
I do feel like Beasley may get run at the 5, which I haven't really heard suggested. |
I suggested it in one of those threads. While he’s not a rim Protector he’s fast enough to defend picks or switch on pics to a smaller player. On the offensive end there’s no starting center who could stop him. I’m totally on board with running teams out of the gym. We don’t have GSW shooters so let’s lead the league in points in the paint and pace. |
I like your thinking. I wouldn’t mind trying this. I also like Mcgee ALOT. Capella is the reason why the rockets are so good. He is a threat to catch it at the rim every single time cp3 or harden drives which makes the D collapse from 3pt shooters and the ball handlers defender has to make a choice. Lebron will make Mcgee a nightmare. |
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | Same reason why the Warriors don't start Dray at center.
He'd foul out by the 3rd quarter. |
That’s false the more likely scenario would be the opposing center fouling out.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Same reason why the Warriors don't start Dray at center.
He'd foul out by the 3rd quarter. |
That’s false the more likely scenario would be the opposing center fouling out. |
How is that false?
He would be wasting fouls on larger centers who physically overpower him.
Teams have to adjust to the Warriors when they go small ball and usually true centers who are too slow are out of the game.
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Same reason why the Warriors don't start Dray at center.
He'd foul out by the 3rd quarter. |
That’s false the more likely scenario would be the opposing center fouling out. |
How is that false?
He would be wasting fouls on larger centers who physically overpower him.
Teams have to adjust to the Warriors when they go small ball and usually true centers who are too slow are out of the game. |
And that proves my point. One if a team isn’t used to running through their center they’re not gonna all of sudden run their offense through Gobert because Lebron is defending him. Lebron will have the bigger advantage because of speed and he’s the focal point of the Lakers offense. You can’t put a wing on Lebron because Kuzma is likely to have the same advantages vs their center. So no he won’t be fouling out just because he’s starting at center. You want to make that argument for Embiid I agree but 80% or more NBA centers will get destroyed
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Same reason why the Warriors don't start Dray at center.
He'd foul out by the 3rd quarter. |
That’s false the more likely scenario would be the opposing center fouling out. |
How is that false?
He would be wasting fouls on larger centers who physically overpower him.
Teams have to adjust to the Warriors when they go small ball and usually true centers who are too slow are out of the game. |
And that proves my point. One if a team isn’t used to running through their center they’re not gonna all of sudden run their offense through Gobert because Lebron is defending him. Lebron will have the bigger advantage because of speed and he’s the focal point of the Lakers offense. You can’t put a wing on Lebron because Kuzma is likely to have the same advantages vs their center. So no he won’t be fouling out just because he’s starting at center. You want to make that argument for Embiid I agree but 80% or more NBA centers will get destroyed |
There is a 0% chance we start LBJ at center.
But it's a chicken/egg argument.
100% of teams will trot out a traditional center, though some are more agile than others.
I don't think teams will go small if we do, and I highly doubt LBJ wants to go through the wear and tear of guarding physically larger guys.
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Same reason why the Warriors don't start Dray at center.
He'd foul out by the 3rd quarter. |
That’s false the more likely scenario would be the opposing center fouling out. |
How is that false?
He would be wasting fouls on larger centers who physically overpower him.
Teams have to adjust to the Warriors when they go small ball and usually true centers who are too slow are out of the game. |
And that proves my point. One if a team isn’t used to running through their center they’re not gonna all of sudden run their offense through Gobert because Lebron is defending him. Lebron will have the bigger advantage because of speed and he’s the focal point of the Lakers offense. You can’t put a wing on Lebron because Kuzma is likely to have the same advantages vs their center. So no he won’t be fouling out just because he’s starting at center. You want to make that argument for Embiid I agree but 80% or more NBA centers will get destroyed |
There is a 0% chance we start LBJ at center.
But it's a chicken/egg argument.
100% of teams will trot out a traditional center, though some are more agile than others.
I don't think teams will go small if we do, and I highly doubt LBJ wants to go through the wear and tear of guarding physically larger guys. |
Did I say we will start him there? I don’t recall saying that. I would expect most teams to start a traditional lineup because most Can’t play any other way. With that said it still gives us a huge advantage. I could see the Lakers blowing teams out nightly if they went that route. It would probably also lead to Lebron getting more rest.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| I think the small ball lineups are the NBA equivalent of the wildcat formation and the QB run option, it works well until other teams have time to adapt. After that, it still works if you have the horses. After all, teams have been playing small lineups for decades. Eventually, opponents will make you pay for going small. |
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lakersboy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:24 am Post subject: |
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Foul trouble for LeBron and/or whoever gets switched onto the center.
Defensive rebounding issues.
Imo, small ball seems most effective after the other team tires and then can't keep up with an increased pace that smaller guys are better at. It's probably why the Warriors consistently outscore opponents in the 3rd qtr. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Same reason why the Warriors don't start Dray at center.
He'd foul out by the 3rd quarter. |
That’s false the more likely scenario would be the opposing center fouling out. |
How is that false?
He would be wasting fouls on larger centers who physically overpower him.
Teams have to adjust to the Warriors when they go small ball and usually true centers who are too slow are out of the game. |
And that proves my point. One if a team isn’t used to running through their center they’re not gonna all of sudden run their offense through Gobert because Lebron is defending him. Lebron will have the bigger advantage because of speed and he’s the focal point of the Lakers offense. You can’t put a wing on Lebron because Kuzma is likely to have the same advantages vs their center. So no he won’t be fouling out just because he’s starting at center. You want to make that argument for Embiid I agree but 80% or more NBA centers will get destroyed |
There is a 0% chance we start LBJ at center.
But it's a chicken/egg argument.
100% of teams will trot out a traditional center, though some are more agile than others.
I don't think teams will go small if we do, and I highly doubt LBJ wants to go through the wear and tear of guarding physically larger guys. |
Did I say we will start him there? I don’t recall saying that. I would expect most teams to start a traditional lineup because most Can’t play any other way. With that said it still gives us a huge advantage. I could see the Lakers blowing teams out nightly if they went that route. It would probably also lead to Lebron getting more rest. |
Your thread title is:
"Why is it a bad idea to start a small ball lineup."
Of course we will use a death lineup to close, but I think that will only account for at best, 15-20% of the total lineups. I would use the death lineup like I use salt on meat. Judiciously.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | I think the small ball lineups are the NBA equivalent of the wildcat formation and the QB run option, it works well until other teams have time to adapt. After that, it still works if you have the horses. After all, teams have been playing small lineups for decades. Eventually, opponents will make you pay for going small. |
Interesting analogy. I was actually thinking it’s like the change of pace back. A lot of times, you will see a higher YPC with them and so people say why not do that all the time but its apples and oranges.
It is situational, and i think, why it is effective in spurts, more than employing it on every play. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Why is it a bad idea to start a small ball lineup. |
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| Car54 wrote: | | Doesnt the advantages of Lebron at center out weight the disadvantages? Lakers film Room Spoke about this on their last podcast. |
What advantages?
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Same reason why the Warriors don't start Dray at center.
He'd foul out by the 3rd quarter. |
That’s false the more likely scenario would be the opposing center fouling out. |
How is that false?
He would be wasting fouls on larger centers who physically overpower him.
Teams have to adjust to the Warriors when they go small ball and usually true centers who are too slow are out of the game. |
And that proves my point. One if a team isn’t used to running through their center they’re not gonna all of sudden run their offense through Gobert because Lebron is defending him. Lebron will have the bigger advantage because of speed and he’s the focal point of the Lakers offense. You can’t put a wing on Lebron because Kuzma is likely to have the same advantages vs their center. So no he won’t be fouling out just because he’s starting at center. You want to make that argument for Embiid I agree but 80% or more NBA centers will get destroyed |
There is a 0% chance we start LBJ at center.
But it's a chicken/egg argument.
100% of teams will trot out a traditional center, though some are more agile than others.
I don't think teams will go small if we do, and I highly doubt LBJ wants to go through the wear and tear of guarding physically larger guys. |
Did I say we will start him there? I don’t recall saying that. |
That is the basis of the thread you created.
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| lakersboy wrote: | Foul trouble for LeBron and/or whoever gets switched onto the center.
Defensive rebounding issues.
Imo, small ball seems most effective after the other team tires and then can't keep up with an increased pace that smaller guys are better at. It's probably why the Warriors consistently outscore opponents in the 3rd qtr. |
Excellent post. Again I don’t think defensive wise we're at a disadvantage with most teams centers. It can also be argued that defensive rebounds for the opposing team Will be hard to get because they’ll have to come out of the paint with their bigs if our Center and PF is shooting 37% from 3. We’ll also have the advantages at chasing rebounds imo. The other team better have some good rebounding guards because we have Hart Lonzo and Rondo. We also have some big wings
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Small ball lineups are like special forces.
You can expect them to face a traditional army and win, but if you insert them strategically, you can cripple your enemy.
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | Small ball lineups are like special forces.
You can expect them to face a traditional army and win, but if you insert them strategically, you can cripple your enemy. |
Ageed brother but I think those advantages exist at the beginning of the game as well.
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Same reason why the Warriors don't start Dray at center.
He'd foul out by the 3rd quarter. |
That’s false the more likely scenario would be the opposing center fouling out. |
How is that false?
He would be wasting fouls on larger centers who physically overpower him.
Teams have to adjust to the Warriors when they go small ball and usually true centers who are too slow are out of the game. |
And that proves my point. One if a team isn’t used to running through their center they’re not gonna all of sudden run their offense through Gobert because Lebron is defending him. Lebron will have the bigger advantage because of speed and he’s the focal point of the Lakers offense. You can’t put a wing on Lebron because Kuzma is likely to have the same advantages vs their center. So no he won’t be fouling out just because he’s starting at center. You want to make that argument for Embiid I agree but 80% or more NBA centers will get destroyed |
There is a 0% chance we start LBJ at center.
But it's a chicken/egg argument.
100% of teams will trot out a traditional center, though some are more agile than others.
I don't think teams will go small if we do, and I highly doubt LBJ wants to go through the wear and tear of guarding physically larger guys. |
Did I say we will start him there? I don’t recall saying that. I would expect most teams to start a traditional lineup because most Can’t play any other way. With that said it still gives us a huge advantage. I could see the Lakers blowing teams out nightly if they went that route. It would probably also lead to Lebron getting more rest. |
Your thread title is:
"Why is it a bad idea to start a small ball lineup."
Of course we will use a death lineup to close, but I think that will only account for at best, 15-20% of the total lineups. I would use the death lineup like I use salt on meat. Judiciously. |
lol good post brother
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Small ball lineups are like special forces.
You can expect them to face a traditional army and win, but if you insert them strategically, you can cripple your enemy. |
Ageed brother but I think those advantages exist at the beginning of the game as well. |
You have to approach it from LBJ's mindset. Does he want to subject his body to guarding guys who are that much bigger than him on defense?
On offense sure, he would be a nightmare mismatch, but on defense, that's a lot of wear and tear.
In theory it may exist, but in practice that's why no teams do it. It just wears down the smaller player.
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Same reason why the Warriors don't start Dray at center.
He'd foul out by the 3rd quarter. |
That’s false the more likely scenario would be the opposing center fouling out. |
How is that false?
He would be wasting fouls on larger centers who physically overpower him.
Teams have to adjust to the Warriors when they go small ball and usually true centers who are too slow are out of the game. |
And that proves my point. One if a team isn’t used to running through their center they’re not gonna all of sudden run their offense through Gobert because Lebron is defending him. Lebron will have the bigger advantage because of speed and he’s the focal point of the Lakers offense. You can’t put a wing on Lebron because Kuzma is likely to have the same advantages vs their center. So no he won’t be fouling out just because he’s starting at center. You want to make that argument for Embiid I agree but 80% or more NBA centers will get destroyed |
There is a 0% chance we start LBJ at center.
But it's a chicken/egg argument.
100% of teams will trot out a traditional center, though some are more agile than others.
I don't think teams will go small if we do, and I highly doubt LBJ wants to go through the wear and tear of guarding physically larger guys. |
Did I say we will start him there? I don’t recall saying that. |
That is the basis of the thread you created. |
Asking why isn’t it a good idea and saying that it will happen are two different things.
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Small ball lineups are like special forces.
You can expect them to face a traditional army and win, but if you insert them strategically, you can cripple your enemy. |
Ageed brother but I think those advantages exist at the beginning of the game as well. |
You have to approach it from LBJ's mindset. Does he want to subject his body to guarding guys who are that much bigger than him on defense?
On offense sure, he would be a nightmare mismatch, but on defense, that's a lot of wear and tear.
In theory it may exist, but in practice that's why no teams do it. It just wears down the smaller player. |
I hear ya I just don’t think there’s many teams that can present those problems for the Lakers. If there’s only 3 teams in the league you beli he could punish him on the inside do you think that’s enough to have him wear down before the playoffs?
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44TheLogo
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:08 am Post subject: |
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this is something i've pondered a bit as well. frankly, if you have a lineup that is for sure your best lineup, it should get the most minutes, period - and that probably means starting. perhaps there's more value in winning the opening jump ball tip than i'm aware of, but i do know that the old adage that basketball games don't start until the end of the 4th quarter is bogus, and that building a lead in the first quarter is as strong an indicator that you're gonna win the game as any other.
so why not start with your best lineup? if that's a small ball lineup then so be it. play the other team's bigs off the court sooner rather than later and get started playing your brand of basketball ASAP. i have yet to see a convincing argument in this thread that has been proven true in practice. there's a lot of "i don't think" and "i doubt"
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| 44TheLogo wrote: | this is something i've pondered a bit as well. frankly, if you have a lineup that is for sure your best lineup, it should get the most minutes, period - and that probably means starting. perhaps there's more value in winning the opening jump ball tip than i'm aware of, but i do know that the old adage that basketball games don't start until the end of the 4th quarter is bogus, and that building a lead in the first quarter is as strong an indicator that you're gonna win the game as any other.
so why not start with your best lineup? if that's a small ball lineup then so be it. play the other team's bigs off the court sooner rather than later and get started playing your brand of basketball ASAP. i have yet to see a convincing argument in this thread that has been proven true in practice. there's a lot of "i don't think" and "i doubt" |
What if LBJ doesn't want to? Telling him to play PF full time is probably where he stops.
He will likely close games at center though.
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44TheLogo
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | 44TheLogo wrote: | this is something i've pondered a bit as well. frankly, if you have a lineup that is for sure your best lineup, it should get the most minutes, period - and that probably means starting. perhaps there's more value in winning the opening jump ball tip than i'm aware of, but i do know that the old adage that basketball games don't start until the end of the 4th quarter is bogus, and that building a lead in the first quarter is as strong an indicator that you're gonna win the game as any other.
so why not start with your best lineup? if that's a small ball lineup then so be it. play the other team's bigs off the court sooner rather than later and get started playing your brand of basketball ASAP. i have yet to see a convincing argument in this thread that has been proven true in practice. there's a lot of "i don't think" and "i doubt" |
What if LBJ doesn't want to? Telling him to play PF full time is probably where he stops.
He will likely close games at center though. |
i think if you tell him that it's an experiment, and then it shows that we win more games with it, then he'd be on board
my point is there's no empirical evidence to say definitively that it's a bad idea. whether your players want to do it or not is a different question, with different implications
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| 44TheLogo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | 44TheLogo wrote: | this is something i've pondered a bit as well. frankly, if you have a lineup that is for sure your best lineup, it should get the most minutes, period - and that probably means starting. perhaps there's more value in winning the opening jump ball tip than i'm aware of, but i do know that the old adage that basketball games don't start until the end of the 4th quarter is bogus, and that building a lead in the first quarter is as strong an indicator that you're gonna win the game as any other.
so why not start with your best lineup? if that's a small ball lineup then so be it. play the other team's bigs off the court sooner rather than later and get started playing your brand of basketball ASAP. i have yet to see a convincing argument in this thread that has been proven true in practice. there's a lot of "i don't think" and "i doubt" |
What if LBJ doesn't want to? Telling him to play PF full time is probably where he stops.
He will likely close games at center though. |
i think if you tell him that it's an experiment, and then it shows that we win more games with it, then he'd be on board
my point is there's no empirical evidence to say definitively that it's a bad idea. whether your players want to do it or not is a different question, with different implications |
Has any NBA team run a successful (i.e. deep into playoffs) small ball starting lineup (mostly small ball) before?
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44TheLogo
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | 44TheLogo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | 44TheLogo wrote: | this is something i've pondered a bit as well. frankly, if you have a lineup that is for sure your best lineup, it should get the most minutes, period - and that probably means starting. perhaps there's more value in winning the opening jump ball tip than i'm aware of, but i do know that the old adage that basketball games don't start until the end of the 4th quarter is bogus, and that building a lead in the first quarter is as strong an indicator that you're gonna win the game as any other.
so why not start with your best lineup? if that's a small ball lineup then so be it. play the other team's bigs off the court sooner rather than later and get started playing your brand of basketball ASAP. i have yet to see a convincing argument in this thread that has been proven true in practice. there's a lot of "i don't think" and "i doubt" |
What if LBJ doesn't want to? Telling him to play PF full time is probably where he stops.
He will likely close games at center though. |
i think if you tell him that it's an experiment, and then it shows that we win more games with it, then he'd be on board
my point is there's no empirical evidence to say definitively that it's a bad idea. whether your players want to do it or not is a different question, with different implications |
Has any NBA team run a successful (i.e. deep into playoffs) small ball starting lineup (mostly small ball) before? |
i don't know. i also don't know if it's ever been tried with a lineup that can actually do it. these are good questions! i'd love to find out the answer
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| 44TheLogo wrote: | this is something i've pondered a bit as well. frankly, if you have a lineup that is for sure your best lineup, it should get the most minutes, period - and that probably means starting. perhaps there's more value in winning the opening jump ball tip than i'm aware of, but i do know that the old adage that basketball games don't start until the end of the 4th quarter is bogus, and that building a lead in the first quarter is as strong an indicator that you're gonna win the game as any other.
so why not start with your best lineup? if that's a small ball lineup then so be it. play the other team's bigs off the court sooner rather than later and get started playing your brand of basketball ASAP. i have yet to see a convincing argument in this thread that has been proven true in practice. there's a lot of "i don't think" and "i doubt" |
Great post and this is what I’ve been thinking. Run them out of the building the. Rest your starters. I can’t think of any traditional lineups that will enjoy chasing Lebron and Kuzma
around.
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Coach Vogel, Kidd, Hollins
Max slot : Kawhi |
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