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Zubolo
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 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | When you have someone like LBJ trying to box out Gobert for example, he is going to pick ticky tack fouls b/c he will have to dig in to keep Gobert's freakish length from grabbing boards. He will similarly have to employ uber physical pushing/holding to keep bigger guys off the boards. Ergo fouls and more fouls, let alone the physical strain of doing that for 30+mpg.
Now, in a limited 8-10 mpg I can dig that. |
Lebron gets the benefit of the whistle. I've seen this for years. He's not getting ticky tack calls especially when ratings are at stake. You can relax there. |
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Zubolo
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | Your wear and tear argument is overblown. Look what happened when the Suns experimented with this in the mid-2000s with Amare at center. They far exceeded expectations, Nash came out of nowhere to win back to back MVP's and had it not been a cheap shot from Horry, they might have probably won the chip that year.
Not saying we would win the chip if Lebron starts at center but the advantages for outweigh the disadvantages. Very few teams are keeping up with a front court of Bron, Kuzma and Ingram with Lonzo and Rondo pushing the ball. |
Amare is not the best example to use.
He started playing "center" in 2004-05 and by 2005 he blew out his knee. (not saying that it was 100% related to being a center). He came back and put up some really good numbers but his career was effectively done at age 28 (and he had sub par numbers thereafter). PHX rightfully/wrongfully got Shaq to play center and he went back to "PF." So he had about 3 really good seasons at "center" for the Suns, but he was also 22, 24, and 25 years old when that happened.
It takes a toll and unlike Amare, LBJ is turning 34. I'm not wasting his remaining dominant years grinding against guys who are 4-5 inches taller and 20-30 pounds heavier except for death lineups to close games. |
He started blowing out his knees well before he ever played small ball center.
That 2004-2005 Suns team was considered a border line playoff team entering the season. They blew away expectations by winning 62 games and becoming contenders overnight.
I'm not saying Lebron should start at Center necessarily, but I think a front line of Lebron, Kuzma and Ingram for at least half a game should be on display. I think it will be really hard to defend especially if a team sticks with its traditional center. I am willing to bet that that the +/- will heavily favor us in these situations. |
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Zubolo
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | Steve Nash's Suns in the mid-2000's with Amare at Center
Lebron's Heatles with Chris Bosh at Center
If you want to consider Kevin Love a Center, then you could argue the recent Cavs. Thompson came off the bench till the conference finals thereabouts.. and even with him, one could argue he is a small ball center. |
Amare is listed at 6'11 and had a pretty long wingspan.
Bosh was also listed at 6'11 and had long wingspan.
The thing you keep ignoring is that these guys were taller, had long wingspans, were much younger than a soon to be 34 year old LBJ.
The Cavs with Love at center suffered tremendously on defense. |
Were Chris Bosh and Amare bigger and stronger than Lebron? That probably factors in more than length. Speed-wise, Lebron is even faster than both and clearly way more skilled. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Zubolo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | Steve Nash's Suns in the mid-2000's with Amare at Center
Lebron's Heatles with Chris Bosh at Center
If you want to consider Kevin Love a Center, then you could argue the recent Cavs. Thompson came off the bench till the conference finals thereabouts.. and even with him, one could argue he is a small ball center. |
Amare is listed at 6'11 and had a pretty long wingspan.
Bosh was also listed at 6'11 and had long wingspan.
The thing you keep ignoring is that these guys were taller, had long wingspans, were much younger than a soon to be 34 year old LBJ.
The Cavs with Love at center suffered tremendously on defense. |
Were Chris Bosh and Amare bigger and stronger than Lebron? That probably factors in more than length. Speed-wise, Lebron is even faster than both and clearly way more skilled. |
Doesn't matter. Amare was nearly a decade younger at times and Bosh was also much younger than LBJ would be.
LBJ is faster b/c he's not a lanky 6'11 player like Amare/Bosh were. IMO it's a waste of fouls/energy for LBJ to battle traditional centers.
Use him to cut down teams in special death lineups.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | Steve Nash's Suns in the mid-2000's with Amare at Center
Lebron's Heatles with Chris Bosh at Center
If you want to consider Kevin Love a Center, then you could argue the recent Cavs. Thompson came off the bench till the conference finals thereabouts.. and even with him, one could argue he is a small ball center. |
Amare is listed at 6'11 and had a pretty long wingspan.
Bosh was also listed at 6'11 and had long wingspan.
The thing you keep ignoring is that these guys were taller, had long wingspans, were much younger than a soon to be 34 year old LBJ.
The Cavs with Love at center suffered tremendously on defense. |
And Love was a good man to man defender in the paint. That skill has left Lebron’s game.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Just a passing comment here: We're all assuming that a small-ball lineup would be effective with our current roster. We don't actually know that this would be true. We don't have the same sorts of pieces as the Warriors, to put it mildly. Right now, this is just off-season exuberance. |
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panamaniac
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Just a passing comment here: We're all assuming that a small-ball lineup would be effective with our current roster. We don't actually know that this would be true. We don't have the same sorts of pieces as the Warriors, to put it mildly. Right now, this is just off-season exuberance. |
Yeah, they'll probably tinker with it given the in game situation. But I don't think we'll start the year off with it. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Old school thought is small ball lineups equal making up for deficiencies on offense and defenses with quickness, speed, and energy.
Can't use post players? Pick and roll with shooters on offense. That's fine.
Can't deny position on post players? Shade defenders over and have guys recover quickly (since guards/wings are more fleet of foot). Can't protect the rim? Be more willing to double team at will.
Make up for lack of size on the backboard with team rebounding overall.
Modern basketball means, there are wings with PF/C length. There are PGs/SGs with wing length. Some guards are as strong as bigs (Hart stands out here when he's denying post position in isolation coverage, and doesn't require a double). But still, it requires a lot of energy on the floor.
It's tough to sustain that level of energy for extended minutes, for a full season. The team has to be next level with strength and conditioning.
The mid 00's Suns basically did this for a decade. There were rare instances of Kidd, Nash, and Kevin Johnson on the floor (How's that for offense?) but destroyed on defense. Same with Dragic, IT, and Bledsoe. Amare and Boris Diaw playing 5 instead of 4. Still couldn't get the stops against the Spurs they needed, even with the insane tempo, one of the deadliest PnR combos in the league, and the entire team improving to a near 40% team average behind the arc.
That Suns team didn't have the size.
The Warriors? They do.
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| panamaniac wrote: | | Rob and Magic want versatility. Not a small ball team, but a team that can adapt to playing small ball in key situations. |
you are correct. in addition. our team isnt small enough to call it small ball. if you think about broad shoulders bron playing center in this era. he really isnt a small center. the centers are so weak these days. He would dominate at the position. It's only small ball when you have a center that is clearly to small in height and weight to deal with actual centers even of today's era. but some how they either manage to pull it off OR their offense is so much better that the lack of defense doesnt matter at that spot. This is draymond.
Lebron is a lot better than Dray. Now if we were in the era of centers like Drob, Pat ewing, rik smits, Mark Eaton, Shaq, Yao(healthy), Hakeem. Lebron would never ever want any parts of the center spot. because he would get put in foul trouble. |
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | When you have someone like LBJ trying to box out Gobert for example, he is going to pick ticky tack fouls b/c he will have to dig in to keep Gobert's freakish length from grabbing boards. He will similarly have to employ uber physical pushing/holding to keep bigger guys off the boards. Ergo fouls and more fouls, let alone the physical strain of doing that for 30+mpg.
Now, in a limited 8-10 mpg I can dig that. |
most centers are not great boarders like they use to be. if we aint talking Rudy G like you said or DJ. I'm not afraid of LBJ playing center. Embid might give him some problems if he gets on that block and stops trying to be cute with the ball vs bron. but thats about it. there's some other nice players but they are not super strong or super long and athletic to the point where it would be hell for him to deal with it. But because bron is a wider dude than say Rudy G. he would have rudy G boxed out a lot easier than we think .and rudy would end up picking up a lot of over the back fouls not believing this shorter guy is boxing him out like that. |
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The Lebrons
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Just a passing comment here: We're all assuming that a small-ball lineup would be effective with our current roster. We don't actually know that this would be true. We don't have the same sorts of pieces as the Warriors, to put it mildly. Right now, this is just off-season exuberance. |
No, we're assuming that a line-up with our 5 best players would be more effective than other line-ups.
However, I'll believe the Lebron at the 5 talk when I see it. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| The Lebrons wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Just a passing comment here: We're all assuming that a small-ball lineup would be effective with our current roster. We don't actually know that this would be true. We don't have the same sorts of pieces as the Warriors, to put it mildly. Right now, this is just off-season exuberance. |
No, we're assuming that a line-up with our 5 best players would be more effective than other line-ups.
However, I'll believe the Lebron at the 5 talk when I see it. |
That's the same thing, just phrased differently. Having the five best players on the current roster on the floor may or may not be effective. The question is whether unit is effective, not whether the sum of the parts is higher. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| The Lebrons wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Just a passing comment here: We're all assuming that a small-ball lineup would be effective with our current roster. We don't actually know that this would be true. We don't have the same sorts of pieces as the Warriors, to put it mildly. Right now, this is just off-season exuberance. |
No, we're assuming that a line-up with our 5 best players would be more effective than other line-ups.
However, I'll believe the Lebron at the 5 talk when I see it. |
You can’t assume that, sometimes a team is better with only 3-4 of their best players in the lineup. Fit is much more important.
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adkindo
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | The Lebrons wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Just a passing comment here: We're all assuming that a small-ball lineup would be effective with our current roster. We don't actually know that this would be true. We don't have the same sorts of pieces as the Warriors, to put it mildly. Right now, this is just off-season exuberance. |
No, we're assuming that a line-up with our 5 best players would be more effective than other line-ups.
However, I'll believe the Lebron at the 5 talk when I see it. |
That's the same thing, just phrased differently. Having the five best players on the current roster on the floor may or may not be effective. The question is whether unit is effective, not whether the sum of the parts is higher. |
Caruso, Bonga, Lance, Deng and Wagner think you make a valid point.... |
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waterman40
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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We will see small ball lineups, but we are not running a full season with a small ball lineup for the majority of games. My guess will be 8-10 minutes on most nights, in second unit situations, with either Lebron or Beasley at center against other teams second stringers or their small-ball lineups.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | Steve Nash's Suns in the mid-2000's with Amare at Center
Lebron's Heatles with Chris Bosh at Center
If you want to consider Kevin Love a Center, then you could argue the recent Cavs. Thompson came off the bench till the conference finals thereabouts.. and even with him, one could argue he is a small ball center. |
Amare is listed at 6'11 and had a pretty long wingspan.
Bosh was also listed at 6'11 and had long wingspan.
The thing you keep ignoring is that these guys were taller, had long wingspans, were much younger than a soon to be 34 year old LBJ.
The Cavs with Love at center suffered tremendously on defense. |
And Love was a good man to man defender in the paint. That skill has left Lebron’s game. |
Opposing players shot 64% within 6 feet when Kevin Love guarded them last season. 2nd worst in the league among players who defended that shot 5 or more times a game.
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The Lebrons
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | The Lebrons wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Just a passing comment here: We're all assuming that a small-ball lineup would be effective with our current roster. We don't actually know that this would be true. We don't have the same sorts of pieces as the Warriors, to put it mildly. Right now, this is just off-season exuberance. |
No, we're assuming that a line-up with our 5 best players would be more effective than other line-ups.
However, I'll believe the Lebron at the 5 talk when I see it. |
You can’t assume that, sometimes a team is better with only 3-4 of their best players in the lineup. Fit is much more important. |
I look forward to hearing your best 5 man unit. |
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The Lebrons
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | The Lebrons wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Just a passing comment here: We're all assuming that a small-ball lineup would be effective with our current roster. We don't actually know that this would be true. We don't have the same sorts of pieces as the Warriors, to put it mildly. Right now, this is just off-season exuberance. |
No, we're assuming that a line-up with our 5 best players would be more effective than other line-ups.
However, I'll believe the Lebron at the 5 talk when I see it. |
That's the same thing, just phrased differently. Having the five best players on the current roster on the floor may or may not be effective. The question is whether unit is effective, not whether the sum of the parts is higher. |
No, it's not.  Our best potential line-up just so happens to be a small-ball line-up of Lonzo/Hart/Ingram/Kuz/Lebron IMO. |
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watchME
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | watchME wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Small ball lineups are like special forces.
You can expect them to face a traditional army and win, but if you insert them strategically, you can cripple your enemy. |
Ageed brother but I think those advantages exist at the beginning of the game as well. |
You have to approach it from LBJ's mindset. Does he want to subject his body to guarding guys who are that much bigger than him on defense?
On offense sure, he would be a nightmare mismatch, but on defense, that's a lot of wear and tear.
In theory it may exist, but in practice that's why no teams do it. It just wears down the smaller player. |
which coach is stupid enough to start a traditional center on lebron james? Lebron would force teams to change their line ups or they will be blown out. |
It's easy for us to say. But try asking LBJ to wrestle with a 7'1, 270 pounder. I don't think he'd be enthusiastic about the physical wear and tear.
I think LBJ starting at PF is perfect. And finishing games at center is awesome. Not sure what's the need to start the game off with him fighting physically bigger dudes off for 35mpg. |
Lebron is heavier than most centers including Gobert. He has 20lb of lean muscle on Green. 30lb on capela.
We are trying to prolong his career so he wont play so many C minutes but if we had KL I would of start Lebron at C. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| The Lebrons wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | That's the same thing, just phrased differently. Having the five best players on the current roster on the floor may or may not be effective. The question is whether unit is effective, not whether the sum of the parts is higher. |
No, it's not. Our best potential line-up just so happens to be a small-ball line-up of Lonzo/Hart/Ingram/Kuz/Lebron IMO. |
So you think that our best lineup is Lebron plus the kids. Maybe, maybe not. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:53 am Post subject: |
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Brian Windhorst on LBJ:
| Quote: | On LeBron playing center:
“LeBron doesn’t like playing center. He just doesn’t like it.” Brian thought the picture on Instagram where James had inflated arms and wrote the message about (head coach) Walton wanting him to play center was
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Understandable and lost amongst this interesting debate is the fact LBJ probably wants to minimize the minutes at center, though in limited doses, he can be quite effective there.
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The Lebrons
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | The Lebrons wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | That's the same thing, just phrased differently. Having the five best players on the current roster on the floor may or may not be effective. The question is whether unit is effective, not whether the sum of the parts is higher. |
No, it's not. Our best potential line-up just so happens to be a small-ball line-up of Lonzo/Hart/Ingram/Kuz/Lebron IMO. |
So you think that our best lineup is Lebron plus the kids. Maybe, maybe not. |
I do. Open to hearing arguments. Only other guys I'd consider are Rondo and KCP. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| The Lebrons wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | The Lebrons wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Just a passing comment here: We're all assuming that a small-ball lineup would be effective with our current roster. We don't actually know that this would be true. We don't have the same sorts of pieces as the Warriors, to put it mildly. Right now, this is just off-season exuberance. |
No, we're assuming that a line-up with our 5 best players would be more effective than other line-ups.
However, I'll believe the Lebron at the 5 talk when I see it. |
You can’t assume that, sometimes a team is better with only 3-4 of their best players in the lineup. Fit is much more important. |
I look forward to hearing your best 5 man unit. |
It won’t be before they actually play
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | Brian Windhorst on LBJ:
| Quote: | On LeBron playing center:
“LeBron doesn’t like playing center. He just doesn’t like it.” Brian thought the picture on Instagram where James had inflated arms and wrote the message about (head coach) Walton wanting him to play center was
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Understandable and lost amongst this interesting debate is the fact LBJ probably wants to minimize the minutes at center, though in limited doses, he can be quite effective there. |
I am not sure he can be effective there. Based on a limited sample (the Finals), he wasn’t good at that position. He is already moving up one position, asking him to move up two is asking a lot. Why not just let him play his game and let someone else who is more fitting play center?
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AFireInside619
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:59 am Post subject: |
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I’m sure LBJ’s time at center will be very limited, unless we aggressively help him on defense, and run the competition out of the gym on offense. Lebron at center will probably be reserved for more key moments like the playoffs. I know it’s been a few years, but let’s not forgot what he did the the Warriors Game 7 when he played center. No one got anything near the rim.
He will be the best 4 in the league though, by a mile. Unless you wanna included AD, and still Lebron is still the better player (as of today). You can take your Aaron Gordons, Draymonds, Milsaps, and Randles of the world, Lebron will still take their lunch money for the next 3 seasons. |
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