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SweetP
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:13 pm    Post subject: Some Good News

Thai kids lost in cave found alive!

Some good news for a change. 12 Thai kids from a youth soccer team, aged 11 to 16, and their coach have been found alive 10 days after being lost in a cave. Rains and flooding cut them off after a day trip and a multi-national group has been urgently trying to locate them in the flooded cave system. Two British divers found the group today huddled on a small shelf. They are hungry and weak but all alive and rescuers are working on a plan to get them out before more rains arrive on Wed.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:10 pm    Post subject:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:58 pm    Post subject:

Great news that they have been found, but the task of getting them out is HUGE. It took highly accomplished cave divers just to find them. That means that it takes a dangerous cave dive to get them out. As a longtime and SCUBA diver who has gone through several training levels, cave diving is some of the most challenging and dangerous.

Not trying to be a drag, because it's awesome they are still alive and have been located. Now a plan can be formulated to try rescue them, but a successful rescue is not a given. They can't just slap air tanks on theses kids and lead them through the passageways. They are talking about shuttling in months of food and provisions while they try and implement an extraction.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm    Post subject:

I read the kids might have to learn basic scuba techniques....in that case they are better off trying to pump out the water from the cave.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:19 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
I read the kids might have to learn basic scuba techniques....in that case they are better off trying to pump out the water from the cave.


Teaching them basic SCUBA would have to be a last resort that would likely not work out well. It's not as simple as teaching them how to breath off of a regulator, watch their air consumption, figure out how buoyancy works etc. Basic SCUBA doesn't involve overhead environments. In basic SCUBA you always have a direct route to the surface. Not the case in an overhead environment.

Cave diving involves doing all that PLUS understanding the strict rigors of decompression diving and/or the use of mixed gases. All highly technical stuff. Something these kids could probably learn with weeks of training in an ideal environment where they are in a classroom and pool and going home to a nice bed and meal each evening. Not so much when they are in a remote environment and simply trying to stay alive on what provisions and aid they can get.

I'm an advanced certified diver with 25 plus years of experience diving in all kinds of conditions including wrecks. I'll dive deep. I'll dive in heavy currents. I'll dive low visibility. I'll do basic cave diving. But one thing that I am not comfortable with is the kind of cave diving involved with this kind of situation.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:33 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
I read the kids might have to learn basic scuba techniques....in that case they are better off trying to pump out the water from the cave.


It's rainy season and the rivers are rising. The rains probably won't subside for a couple months.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:37 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Great news that they have been found, but the task of getting them out is HUGE. It took highly accomplished cave divers just to find them. That means that it takes a dangerous cave dive to get them out. As a longtime and SCUBA diver who has gone through several training levels, cave diving is some of the most challenging and dangerous.

Not trying to be a drag, because it's awesome they are still alive and have been located. Now a plan can be formulated to try rescue them, but a successful rescue is not a given. They can't just slap air tanks on theses kids and lead them through the passageways. They are talking about shuttling in months of food and provisions while they try and implement an extraction.


Yeah, reading some of the same info. Apparently quite an ordeal for the two experienced British divers to get to them and not just an issue of leading them out now.

But at least they know where they are now and all are alive, so hoping they can make a plan for these kids. Maybe they can drill down near them and lift them out? Just good to see various nations (USA, Thailand, UK, China, etc.) all pulling together to save these kids.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:53 pm    Post subject:

It's very risky to dive the kids out, especially because it's a long stretch of a dive and they won't be able to see anything. Even expert divers say the kids have to do it perfectly or it could turn out fatal especially if they panic. I think they should sedate them a little bit just to get them relaxed but not to the point where they're drowsy.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:16 pm    Post subject:

GoldenChild wrote:
It's very risky to dive the kids out, especially because it's a long stretch of a dive and they won't be able to see anything. Even expert divers say the kids have to do it perfectly or it could turn out fatal especially if they panic. I think they should sedate them a little bit just to get them relaxed but not to the point where they're drowsy.


Nope. Using medication or alcohol when diving is a huge no-go.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:33 pm    Post subject:

Can't they just build a dam then pump the water out and the kids can just walk out the way they came in? Seems really risky to have the kids take a crash course in scuba diving. I'm no diving expert but that seems like a worse case scenario thing.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:54 pm    Post subject:

nickuku wrote:
Can't they just build a dam then pump the water out and the kids can just walk out the way they came in? Seems really risky to have the kids take a crash course in scuba diving. I'm no diving expert but that seems like a worse case scenario thing.


There’s no way to dam a cave. There are far too many avenues of access for the water entering and the source of many isn’t known.

Pumping is certainly an option, but it’s only successful if the rate of pumping out is greater than the flow in. Last I saw, there had been some success pumping water out, but that changes once the rainfall begins.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:38 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
The Associated Press
‏@AP
BREAKING: Thai authorities say navy SEAL working to rescue boys trapped in cave has died from lack of oxygen.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:22 pm    Post subject:

^^^
That's a shame. A volunteer as well.

Sad emphasis on the point that cave diving is not something to be taken lightly. If this expert diver ran out of air (based on the reports anyway. I think there may be another factor involved. Expert divers don't just run out of air. There's a good deal of planning that goes into a cave penetration, including multiple redundant air supplies) then that mean the underwater portion of the rescue is a great distance and requires a significant amount of time underwater, and I'm speculating there's a considerable amount of depth change.

I sure hope they find some other method of rescue such as drilling and use the underwater route as an absolute last resort. Because as I'm laying it out in my mind, taking them out on SCUBA is fraught with peril. One of the big obstacles of cave diving is loss of visibility. Cave diving requires being extremely careful about kicking up silt as you go through the narrow passage ways. Part of the training is to use a completely different style of kicking so your fins move as little water downward. Even when you have guidelines laid out to show you the route, you have to clip yourself to the guideline or maintain constant contact with it. Expecting untrained divers to do everything exactly right and be calm and diligent in a completely new experience where even the best divers are challenged is a scary ass option.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:40 pm    Post subject:

Reports now are that the oxygen levels in the area where the kids and their coach are have dropped to potentially dangerous levels and more rains are on the way. Hope they can figure out a way to get them out safely.

One person described as an expert suggested drugging the kids to unconscious and put full masks on them and let the divers take them out like "parcels" to keep them from panicking. Not something I know much about but their parents have to be freaking out. Reports the rescuers are looking for smaller wetsuits as some of the kids are too small for the ones they have. Hope this works out for all of them.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:45 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
^^^
That's a shame. A volunteer as well.

Sad emphasis on the point that cave diving is not something to be taken lightly. If this expert diver ran out of air (based on the reports anyway. I think there may be another factor involved. Expert divers don't just run out of air. There's a good deal of planning that goes into a cave penetration, including multiple redundant air supplies) then that mean the underwater portion of the rescue is a great distance and requires a significant amount of time underwater, and I'm speculating there's a considerable amount of depth change.

I sure hope they find some other method of rescue such as drilling and use the underwater route as an absolute last resort. Because as I'm laying it out in my mind, taking them out on SCUBA is fraught with peril. One of the big obstacles of cave diving is loss of visibility. Cave diving requires being extremely careful about kicking up silt as you go through the narrow passage ways. Part of the training is to use a completely different style of kicking so your fins move as little water downward. Even when you have guidelines laid out to show you the route, you have to clip yourself to the guideline or maintain constant contact with it. Expecting untrained divers to do everything exactly right and be calm and diligent in a completely new experience where even the best divers are challenged is a scary ass option.
Dmr now you've made the idea in my mind scary as heck. never knew it took all of that but it makes sense how you broke it down. I hope they find another way.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:34 pm    Post subject:

SweetP wrote:
Reports now are that the oxygen levels in the area where the kids and their coach are have dropped to potentially dangerous levels and more rains are on the way. Hope they can figure out a way to get them out safely.

One person described as an expert suggested drugging the kids to unconscious and put full masks on them and let the divers take them out like "parcels" to keep them from panicking. Not something I know much about but their parents have to be freaking out. Reports the rescuers are looking for smaller wetsuits as some of the kids are too small for the ones they have. Hope this works out for all of them.


I sure as hell hope they keep any alleged "expert" such as that fooL away from the rescue operation. You can haul bodies out of a cave as "parcels". The idea of hauling living people out as such is asinine. Full face mask regulators are far different than placing an unconscious person on a respirator in an ambulance or hospital. A full face mask still requires a person actively monitoring their own inhalation. For example, if one has been to an aquarium where they have a diver narrating a fish feed or something, you've heard the diver actively taking breaths as they speak. It's like a hyperventilating Darth Vader. "This large fish in front is a giant sea bass . . . (whoooooosh) . . . and the smaller fish schooling (whoooosh) above me are barracuda . . . (whoosh) . . . let me see if I can coax the (whoooooosh) sea turtle over here . . . (whooooosh) . . ." And again, narcotics and diving are a huge no-no - especially when used to induce unconsciousness.

If they attempted such a thing, they likely will be just hauling "parcels" out. Parcels that will go into body bags.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:40 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
The Spectator Index
‏@spectatorindex
JUST IN: Operation to rescue twelve boys and their coach in a cave in northern Thailand has started
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:54 pm    Post subject:

Freddie Buckets wrote:
Quote:
The Spectator Index
‏@spectatorindex
JUST IN: Operation to rescue twelve boys and their coach in a cave in northern Thailand has started


Fingers and toes crossed it goes smoothly.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:20 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Freddie Buckets wrote:
Quote:
The Spectator Index
‏@spectatorindex
JUST IN: Operation to rescue twelve boys and their coach in a cave in northern Thailand has started


Fingers and toes crossed it goes smoothly.

Hope all of them and the rescue team make it out safe and sound.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:41 pm    Post subject:

SweetP wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Freddie Buckets wrote:
Quote:
The Spectator Index
‏@spectatorindex
JUST IN: Operation to rescue twelve boys and their coach in a cave in northern Thailand has started


Fingers and toes crossed it goes smoothly.

Hope all of them and the rescue team make it out safe and sound.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:54 pm    Post subject:

Elon Musk was supposed to be helping too...

They will make it out.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:08 pm    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Elon Musk was supposed to be helping too...

They will make it out.


He's building a mini submarine for the boys, but I don't think it'll get there on time since the rescue operation has already started.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:19 am    Post subject:

They are bringing the boys out by "buddy diving" (DMR can probably tell us more).

It's a truly international effort to save these kids and their coach and the divers are going to be exhausted I would think by the time this is done, more experienced cave divers arriving to help. Predicting the first of the kids could be out by early am. Going to keep bringing them out in pairs it sounds like as long as the water levels stay down, but might take a couple of days to get them all out.

Rescue team thinks they have a window with the weather right now and the oxygen levels in the area where the boys are have been dropping so the decision was made to go for it. These kids are going to have quite a story to tell!
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:23 am    Post subject:

Live Updates
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/jul/08/thailand-cave-rescue-operation-divers-trapped-boys-live
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:52 am    Post subject:

SweetP wrote:
They are bringing the boys out by "buddy diving" (DMR can probably tell us more).

It's a truly international effort to save these kids and their coach and the divers are going to be exhausted I would think by the time this is done, more experienced cave divers arriving to help. Predicting the first of the kids could be out by early am. Going to keep bringing them out in pairs it sounds like as long as the water levels stay down, but might take a couple of days to get them all out.

Rescue team thinks they have a window with the weather right now and the oxygen levels in the area where the boys are have been dropping so the decision was made to go for it. These kids are going to have quite a story to tell!


https://www.7plus.com.au/live-tv

Yay buddy dive!!!

Four Boys Rescued and at a local Hospital!!!! a 5th and 6th currently being buddy dived out.
Rain is picking up and will be increasing up into the morning and may go on for who knows how long. So it's now or never!

6 more boys plus the Coach who insists on going last.
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