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ocho Retired Number
Joined: 24 May 2005 Posts: 53714
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Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | I'm wondering if any NBA team has a worse PG rotation than the Lakers this season. |
I don’t think it’s particularly close. _________________ 14-5-3-12 |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:07 am Post subject: |
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ocho wrote: | Quote: | I'm wondering if any NBA team has a worse PG rotation than the Lakers this season. |
I don’t think it’s particularly close. |
We've got arguably the best 3 and the best 4.
So I guess we need a 15th ranked PG rotation for folks to be happy? |
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DLaker Star Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 1536
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:39 am Post subject: |
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Rondo played very well, why are we bashing on him. |
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manlisten Star Player
Joined: 09 Jul 2004 Posts: 3169
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:45 am Post subject: |
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I think the lineups with LeBron/Rondo or LeBron/Rondo/AD have fared well so far. The Rondo/AD pairing is the one that needs improvement. _________________ It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points." |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:35 am Post subject: |
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DLaker wrote: | Rondo played very well, why are we bashing on him. |
Because we value defense? _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:38 am Post subject: |
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manlisten wrote: | I think the lineups with LeBron/Rondo or LeBron/Rondo/AD have fared well so far. The Rondo/AD pairing is the one that needs improvement. |
Based on what, though? _________________ Under New Management |
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2019 Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Dec 2014 Posts: 10786
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:51 am Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | DLaker wrote: | Rondo played very well, why are we bashing on him. |
Because we value defense? |
But a guy like Korver in the rotation is so much different?
Not everyone can do everything. Blame FO/LBJ/AD for not going after a more steady PG but it's not Rondo that's the issue- it's that outside of Bradley (who isn't really even a PG) we have no guards who can defend.
I like Rondo running the 2nd unit/first major rotation once LeBron sits
AD, Kuzma, Green, KCP, Rondo |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:11 am Post subject: |
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2019 wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | DLaker wrote: | Rondo played very well, why are we bashing on him. |
Because we value defense? |
But a guy like Korver in the rotation is so much different?
Not everyone can do everything. Blame FO/LBJ/AD for not going after a more steady PG but it's not Rondo that's the issue- it's that outside of Bradley (who isn't really even a PG) we have no guards who can defend.
I like Rondo running the 2nd unit/first major rotation once LeBron sits
AD, Kuzma, Green, KCP, Rondo |
Caruso can clearly defend and has been better on that end the past two years than Bradley has been.
Also, guess what? Korver was a good defender up until 2-3 seasons ago before he entered his late 30s. Whereas Rondo hasn't been a good defender since he tore his ACL. _________________ Under New Management |
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LakersRGolden Star Player
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 7910 Location: Lake Forest
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:29 am Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | 2019 wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | DLaker wrote: | Rondo played very well, why are we bashing on him. |
Because we value defense? |
But a guy like Korver in the rotation is so much different?
Not everyone can do everything. Blame FO/LBJ/AD for not going after a more steady PG but it's not Rondo that's the issue- it's that outside of Bradley (who isn't really even a PG) we have no guards who can defend.
I like Rondo running the 2nd unit/first major rotation once LeBron sits
AD, Kuzma, Green, KCP, Rondo |
Caruso can clearly defend and has been better on that end the past two years than Bradley has been.
Also, guess what? Korver was a good defender up until 2-3 seasons ago before he entered his late 30s. Whereas Rondo hasn't been a good defender since he tore his ACL. |
Also, Rondo can't space the floor. Brooklyn was able to pack the paint with an extra guy and it disrupted our offense, resulting in a lot of missed shots in the paint that shouldn't be happening.
Yes, he did well as a floor general and generated points with several expert passes. The question is does the points he gives up on D and the points we loose due to poor spacing outweigh the points he generates as a passing guard? |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:30 am Post subject: |
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I think it's a mentality issue.
I think he thinks he can take it easy defensively b/c he's "doing so much" on offense. He has absurdly long arms and can play passing lanes, and I bet if he really wanted, could be close to a slightly below average defender. But he thinks he needs to save it offensively, which is not true. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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DLaker Star Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 1536
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:11 am Post subject: |
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I think the bashing is unwarranted for this game. Rondo played very well, the time he is in there he was a +5. The Nets shot the lights out of the ball from 3 which is the only reason we loss. Plus played or D league player down the stretch Caruso, KCP, Cacok, Jackson, Norvell was a -32 combined for the game.
Too much bashing when Rondo actually played very well, leave the bashing for the game he totally deserved it. |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29150 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:12 am Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | The argument is that every shot Rondo takes without either one or both of Lebron and AD touching the ball first is a win for the opposition. |
I think we disagree here. I worry about LBJ and Brow having heavy usage throughout the long season. LBJ is coming off an injured season and Brow has had injury problems before. Plus in playoff time it helps to have more than just a two headed attack. Even the Clippers will try to make sure Lou and Harrell are rolling come playoff time. Most plays sure, make sure we go through LBJ and Brow. But not every play. If Rondo can get an open layup off a screen he should take it. If he gets the D to collapse and Green is open for the kickout and three. Take it. Rondo is not the type of guy to take pull up 3s off the dribble as soon as he crosses half court like some modern day guards. Same goes for other PGs on our team. Same goes for Kuzma. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Last edited by kikanga on Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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manlisten Star Player
Joined: 09 Jul 2004 Posts: 3169
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | manlisten wrote: | I think the lineups with LeBron/Rondo or LeBron/Rondo/AD have fared well so far. The Rondo/AD pairing is the one that needs improvement. |
Based on what, though? |
Getting the lead and not completely blowing it. Just eyeballing it I think those first two groups are + lineups thru 2 preseason games. The Rondo/AD unit lost the early lead against GSW until Bron checked back in. Rondo is +4 and +5 in the two games. _________________ It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points." |
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lar9149 Star Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2010 Posts: 2342
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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I am going to make the argument Rondo should start and here is why
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.silverscreenandroll.com/platform/amp/2019/10/11/20909130/laker-film-room-why-lakers-giving-up-so-many-threes-how-they-can-fix-preseason-china-video-youtube
If you look at this article, it breaks down the Nets were able to make a lot 3s last game because the big men were laying back to far after screens were set for the shooter. It said the counter is this
The big man show higher on the screen so they can challenge the shot. According to the video this worked well with McGee or Ad. But Dwight was too slow he would get beat of the dribble.
Another way is the defender fighting off the screen which Bradley and Green do well the one guy who doesn’t do well is...Rondo because of his size and lack of speed
So assuming McGee and AD start they go cover high off the screen to challenge the shooter so even if Rondo is slow it will be fine
Than when Dwight comes in, Bradley could come So Dwight doesn’t have to cover the screen high.
So I. Short by having Rondo start AD and McGee would cover his weakness defensively. And Bradley would cover Dwight’s weakness
The next game perhaps they should try Green/Rondo/McGee/ad/le bron. See how that works
Last edited by lar9149 on Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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/epak gets popcorn ready. |
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drae Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2018 Posts: 16144
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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I think it was Pete who was making the comment that the man guarding Rondo will cheat off him to help against Davis in the paint. Rondo needs to keep taking those open jumpers |
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LakerSanity Moderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 33474 Location: Long Beach, California
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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ocho wrote: | Quote: | I'm wondering if any NBA team has a worse PG rotation than the Lakers this season. |
I don’t think it’s particularly close. |
Much like year 1 when Lebron went to Miami. Spent all their cap room and scrambled to put a complimentary team around them. I still hold out hope for Cook, Caruso and Bradley though. Not high on KCP or, obviously, Rondo. We haven't seen Cook. I think Caruso will end up surprising people (he looks to be our best guard right now), and I think Bradley (who, IMO, has looked good defensively) just has to show he can shoot the 3 well (and avoid taking other shots) to become exactly what we need. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service
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ocho Retired Number
Joined: 24 May 2005 Posts: 53714
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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LakerSanity wrote: | ocho wrote: | Quote: | I'm wondering if any NBA team has a worse PG rotation than the Lakers this season. |
I don’t think it’s particularly close. |
Much like year 1 when Lebron went to Miami. Spent all their cap room and scrambled to put a complimentary team around them. I still hold out hope for Cook, Caruso and Bradley though. Not high on KCP or, obviously, Rondo. We haven't seen Cook. I think Caruso will end up surprising people (he looks to be our best guard right now), and I think Bradley (who, IMO, has looked good defensively) just has to show he can shoot the 3 well (and avoid taking other shots) to become exactly what we need. |
Yeah it’s very difficult to have roster balance when your two best players are forwards and one of them was acquired via trade where you lost two rotation guards. You do what you have to in order to get Davis but it does come at a cost and we will see that this year as opposing guards routinely torch us. _________________ 14-5-3-12 |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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ocho wrote: | LakerSanity wrote: | ocho wrote: | Quote: | I'm wondering if any NBA team has a worse PG rotation than the Lakers this season. |
I don’t think it’s particularly close. |
Much like year 1 when Lebron went to Miami. Spent all their cap room and scrambled to put a complimentary team around them. I still hold out hope for Cook, Caruso and Bradley though. Not high on KCP or, obviously, Rondo. We haven't seen Cook. I think Caruso will end up surprising people (he looks to be our best guard right now), and I think Bradley (who, IMO, has looked good defensively) just has to show he can shoot the 3 well (and avoid taking other shots) to become exactly what we need. |
Yeah it’s very difficult to have roster balance when your two best players are forwards and one of them was acquired via trade where you lost two rotation guards. You do what you have to in order to get Davis but it does come at a cost and we will see that this year as opposing guards routinely torch us. |
Yep.
And to make things easier for people to grasp, they started calling Lebron the "point" LOL
Now our PG rotation is one of the best. But our SF rotation is one of the worst. I wonder if that can placate people. |
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LakerSanity Moderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 33474 Location: Long Beach, California
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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^IMO, we are really just talking about 1 position, not 2. Between KCP and Bradley, they will both be very good chasing down the Steph Curry, off the ball PG types. It's the Kyrie Irving, Russel Westbrook, James Harden. Chris Paul beat you off the dribble types that should worry us, but I still have hope that Bradley and Caruso might be able to do at least an average job on those types playing on the ball D. I think Kuzma can be at least an average defender on most SFs and maybe even bigger 2s. Green should be fine in that role. Its really just defending the quicker ball pounding guards, with a decent defender who also can be a floor spacer on the other end. Regardless, Rondo doesnt fit from any angle. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Lebron is not really a forward like Durant or AD.
AD and Durant are elite scorers.
Lebron is an elite scorer but also an elite guard.
I see it more like the Kobe Pau teams or the Kobe Shaq teams that didn’t have a great PG, but Kobe made up for it since he was basically the PG anyway.
All we really need is a PG that knows where the offense is to be run, can make 3 pointers. Defensively be able to defend. We don’t need a typical PG because our offense will go through Lebron at the PG spot and then AD. |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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kikanga wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | The argument is that every shot Rondo takes without either one or both of Lebron and AD touching the ball first is a win for the opposition. |
I think we disagree here. I worry about LBJ and Brow having heavy usage throughout the long season. LBJ is coming off an injured season and Brow has had injury problems before. Plus in playoff time it helps to have more than just a two headed attack. Even the Clippers will try to make sure Lou and Harrell are rolling come playoff time. Most plays sure, make sure we go through LBJ and Brow. But not every play. If Rondo can get an open layup off a screen he should take it. If he gets the D to collapse and Green is open for the kickout and three. Take it. Rondo is not the type of guy to take pull up 3s off the dribble as soon as he crosses half court like some modern day guards. Same goes for other PGs on our team. Same goes for Kuzma. |
Outside of Lebron and AD the Lakers roster is one of the least talented in the NBA, especially offensively. Those two have to carry a heavy usage otherwise the Lakers won't win many games.
Lou Williams is still good (or he was as of last season). Rajon Rondo is no longer good. LouWill being one of the best PnR scorers in the NBA is a luxury for the Clippers. Having to rely on Rajon Rondo for more than token minutes is a weakness for the Lakers.
If the Lakers had Lou Williams, I would also advocate that he orchestrate the offense more often to take some of the creation responsibility away from Lebron and AD. Because LouWill is good. _________________ Under New Management |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29150 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | Lebron is not really a forward like Durant or AD.
AD and Durant are elite scorers.
Lebron is an elite scorer but also an elite guard.
I see it more like the Kobe Pau teams or the Kobe Shaq teams that didn’t have a great PG, but Kobe made up for it since he was basically the PG anyway.
All we really need is a PG that knows where the offense is to be run, can make 3 pointers. Defensively be able to defend. We don’t need a typical PG because our offense will go through Lebron at the PG spot and then AD. |
I was hoping Cousins was gonna approximate the Odom role (for Kobe and Pau). But now it looks like it's on Rondo's shoulders to be a third guy who can playmake. And McGee and Dwight have to bring the defense and rebounding. Not as good of a fit as Kobe, Pau, Odom (and to a lesser degree Bynum). But the league is different now. Hopefully we have enough to get it done.
Caruso is talented. The biggest hump he has is gaining the trust and confidence of Bron and AD to waive them off and set things up if he needs to. Fish did that to Kobe multiple times. To the betterment of the team.
Even though LG doesn't trust Rondo (and it's easy to argue that's justified). LBJ, Brow, and the coaching staff do. Just have to hope they see things on the inside that we don't on the outside to merit that trust and confidence. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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Lakers_Jester Star Player
Joined: 17 Sep 2012 Posts: 5366
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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Rondo did ok last game but hes no lebron. When u have rondo and lebron out there together as your starters, you're allowing rondo to orchestrate and making lebron basically play as a glorified wing type role player. Which also means at times AD is feeding second or even third. Rondo is a point god but hes no lebron. Lebron and AD is the one two punch, everyone else around them with the starters should not be taking the ball out of their hands but rather complement the one two punch as auxiliary pieces. |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:20 am Post subject: |
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kikanga wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Lebron is not really a forward like Durant or AD.
AD and Durant are elite scorers.
Lebron is an elite scorer but also an elite guard.
I see it more like the Kobe Pau teams or the Kobe Shaq teams that didn’t have a great PG, but Kobe made up for it since he was basically the PG anyway.
All we really need is a PG that knows where the offense is to be run, can make 3 pointers. Defensively be able to defend. We don’t need a typical PG because our offense will go through Lebron at the PG spot and then AD. |
I was hoping Cousins was gonna approximate the Odom role (for Kobe and Pau). But now it looks like it's on Rondo's shoulders to be a third guy who can playmake. And McGee and Dwight have to bring the defense and rebounding. Not as good of a fit as Kobe, Pau, Odom (and to a lesser degree Bynum). But the league is different now. Hopefully we have enough to get it done.
Caruso is talented. The biggest hump he has is gaining the trust and confidence of Bron and AD to waive them off and set things up if he needs to. Fish did that to Kobe multiple times. To the betterment of the team.
Even though LG doesn't trust Rondo (and it's easy to argue that's justified). LBJ, Brow, and the coaching staff do. Just have to hope they see things on the inside that we don't on the outside to merit that trust and confidence. |
Rondo is a good playmaker. He sees things happen in advance. Problem is teams sag off him. His minutes need to be limited, and he needs to keep shooting the 3. What we need is our rotation to be consistent, and with some defined roles.
Right now we do not have that because Vogel is experimenting. We have not seen the same rotation in a single game. Or same starting lineup. I would guess the one we saw in game 1 of the PS is the most likely rotation and starting unit. In that situation, all we need is our PG to be a SG that can bring the ball up, make a quick pass if it is available to creating a scoring chance otherwise defer the ball to Lebron. Once the ball is in Lebron's hands, then it becomes critical the PG have confidence to shoot the outside shots, and make a decent clip.
Right now I would lean on starting Bradley, and then bringing Rondo in off the bench, as we saw in game 1. Rondo should be primarily brought in to relieve Lebron of playmaking duties and to feed AD the ball as a first option, when Lebron is resting. If he is playing well, then give him more run. We also haven't seen any moments of Cook, who IMO, is a quality fit for the team because of his ability to shoot the ball. When he returns from injury, I would like to see him get some minutes. |
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