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yinoma2001
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 Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:41 am Post subject: |
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I'm disappointed in Cook. I thought he could be a decent 10-15mpg reliable scoring combo guard but he is just lost defensively. Utterly lost.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Ok, I guess I am talking about Vogel likely doing, versus yinoma. I don’t see him not playing AB or Rondo. Before AD went out, Caruso was playing 12 mins or so with AB back.
I just don’t see a 24-4 team changing things much for Elfrid Payton.
Now a defensive wing, yes, he’ll slot right in for LBJ rest mins, and when we play small. It fits much better. |
Sure, but I'm saying if we got someone like Payton for our guys who aren't even playing much (Troy/Cook, and I don't think that's enough for the record), he's not coming here to steal 30mpg.
It's very likely that Rondo/AB will miss more time due to injury, so having a Payton-type player around would be great. He would literally be taking up the collective minutes of Troy/Cook. |
Troy/Cook don’t play! That’s my point! Without them, either Payton or another guard will get those DNP-CDs. Probably Caruso? |
Disagree.
Troy and Cook average around 13mpg in 21 and 20 games played respectively.
Rondo has missed 12 games (42% of total games) and AB has missed 14 games (50% of total games).
That is why I want a younger, athletic stopgap player who can actually dribble the ball and play "PG." |
What do they average when Rondo/AB available? DNP-CD.
So who doesn’t play so long as Rondo/AB are healthy enough to play? As it stands now Caruso is getting like 12 mins with those guys healthy. |
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LakerSD
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | I'm disappointed in Cook. I thought he could be a decent 10-15mpg reliable scoring combo guard but he is just lost defensively. Utterly lost. |
Definitely struggling in the Vogel defensive minded system. Maybe just not a good fit like it was in Golden State.
AB/Caruso fit Vogel style closing backcourt perfectly. I don’t think he trusts Cook or Daniels right now. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:48 am Post subject: |
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It is the Rondo/Bradley combo. We need to have Rondo play with Green or KCP. since KCP and Green are capable 3 point shooters.
I think Bradley needs to start, he will set the tone defensively as well. And either KCP or Green play with Rondo on the 2nd unit, both KCP and Green are better 3 point shooters than Bradley.
Once you have that, then you start to talk to your team about settling less for the 3 (yes believe it or not in this era) and looking for players on the move to the basket and also more dribble penetration. We're seeing a lot of bad or average shooters on this team take 3s. We take 35% of our shots from 3, but are we really that good a 3 point shooting team?
I don't blame Rondo, he is not the main problem. The problem we run into is our team relies heavily on 3 point shooting and we don't have the 3 point shooting ability. We need to make an adjustment. Either play lineups where there is 1 really good 3 point shooter out there at all times. Or take less 3's.
In our more recent losses.
Dallas game we shot 7-27 from 3, (Dallas shot 17-49)
Indiana game we shot 8-31 from 3
Sure, many games we overcome it when we don't shoot well from 3. But it also can catch up with you at times, when you take that many 3's and don't make them at an elite level. We're taking 30+ three pointers a game, yet we're an average 3 point shooting team. Yes, I know the importance of 3 point shooting around Lebron and AD. But Lebron and AD also can create looks for you from inside, as we saw with Dwight yesterday. We need to start to send more bodies towards the paint in movement. More rolling Centers, more cutting wings and guards. This allows us to rely less on 3 point shooting.
Perhaps the coaching staff feels they can get these guys to eventually make 3 pointers better, at a better rate. Maybe so. But based on what we have seen so far, and the players career rate, you probably want to get Rondo a backcourt mate who is a near 40% three point shooter which Bradley is not (Green and KCP are capable). You probably want to get your overall 3 point shots down to 23-25 a game. The Spurs won a title in 2014 taking under 25 three pointers a game, and I think that's where we should be. We are supremely talented at all areas of the court - defense, passing, offense. There's only area where we are not elite at. 3 point shooting (and FTs). Dunno if it's smart for us to taking so many 3's unless Rob wants to get another 3 point shooters. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | What do they average when Rondo/AB available? DNP-CD.
So who doesn’t play so long as Rondo/AB are healthy enough to play? As it stands now Caruso is getting like 12 mins with those guys healthy. |
Not sure why you think Payton will deserve to be starting or getting the lion's share of minutes.
Collectively Cook/Troy have played 558 minutes.
Rondo has played a total of 348 minutes, and Bradley 357 minutes. Unless you trust in the durability and health of these guys (I don't), there is literally no downside in replacing Cook/Troy's minutes with a guy like Payton and having him around for insurance.
Unfortunately, based on recent history, Rondo is going to miss games (17 missed in 17-18; 36 missed in 18-19); Bradley has missed 36 in 17-18, 19 missed in 18-19). Your premise assumes these guys will be healthy; i disagree and don't want to be caught with our pants down (aka Cook/Troy being our only options at "PG.").
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LakerMindLA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Rondo is just a liability on the court. He may get you assists, what he is really doing is taking away assists from other players while hurting floor spacing - the Lakers assists per game don't go up with Rondo playing and actually in games he plays more than 20 minutes the team assists go down and turnovers go up.
In addition, even with his improved 3 point shooting, his overall FG% is low (40%) and he takes a lot of shots.
Defensively, he doesn't play great team defense and takes a lot of risks to get his steals. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSD wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I'm disappointed in Cook. I thought he could be a decent 10-15mpg reliable scoring combo guard but he is just lost defensively. Utterly lost. |
Definitely struggling in the Vogel defensive minded system. Maybe just not a good fit like it was in Golden State.
AB/Caruso fit Vogel style closing backcourt perfectly. I don’t think he trusts Cook or Daniels right now. |
All that Cook did at GS was stand in the corner and shoot when he got the ball. Now we have Rondo regressing to his normal shooting form.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | What do they average when Rondo/AB available? DNP-CD.
So who doesn’t play so long as Rondo/AB are healthy enough to play? As it stands now Caruso is getting like 12 mins with those guys healthy. |
Not sure why you think Payton will deserve to be starting or getting the lion's share of minutes.
Collectively Cook/Troy have played 558 minutes.
Rondo has played a total of 348 minutes, and Bradley 357 minutes. Unless you trust in the durability and health of these guys (I don't), there is literally no downside in replacing Cook/Troy's minutes with a guy like Payton and having him around for insurance.
Unfortunately, based on recent history, Rondo is going to miss games (17 missed in 17-18; 36 missed in 18-19); Bradley has missed 36 in 17-18, 19 missed in 18-19). Your premise assumes these guys will be healthy; i disagree and don't want to be caught with our pants down (aka Cook/Troy being our only options at "PG."). |
Because Cook/Daniels don’t play any significant minutes even when AB or Rondo are out. And they don’t play significant minutes even with both AB and Rondo are out the same time. The player who got the minutes when they were both out? Caruso who played over 30 mins. Daniels played 7 and Cook played 10.
Where we differ, is on whose minutes Payton would take. The box score MPG you referenced is inflated by 20+ mins outings in blowout wins. Example: For Cook, 22 mins in the 29pt blowout against Memphis, 19pt blowout against Hornets, 26 blowout against Bulls, 22pt blowout against Wizards.
The only path to any meaningful minutes for $8M/yr Elfrid Payton is through Caruso and to a lesser degree, KCP.
Last edited by ringfinger on Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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lakerican
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | It is the Rondo/Bradley combo. We need to have Rondo play with Green or KCP. since KCP and Green are capable 3 point shooters.
I think Bradley needs to start, he will set the tone defensively as well. And either KCP or Green play with Rondo on the 2nd unit, both KCP and Green are better 3 point shooters than Bradley.
Once you have that, then you start to talk to your team about settling less for the 3 (yes believe it or not in this era) and looking for players on the move to the basket and also more dribble penetration. We're seeing a lot of bad or average shooters on this team take 3s. We take 35% of our shots from 3, but are we really that good a 3 point shooting team?
I don't blame Rondo, he is not the main problem. The problem we run into is our team relies heavily on 3 point shooting and we don't have the 3 point shooting ability. We need to make an adjustment. Either play lineups where there is 1 really good 3 point shooter out there at all times. Or take less 3's.
In our more recent losses.
Dallas game we shot 7-27 from 3, (Dallas shot 17-49)
Indiana game we shot 8-31 from 3
Sure, many games we overcome it when we don't shoot well from 3. But it also can catch up with you at times, when you take that many 3's and don't make them at an elite level. We're taking 30+ three pointers a game, yet we're an average 3 point shooting team. Yes, I know the importance of 3 point shooting around Lebron and AD. But Lebron and AD also can create looks for you from inside, as we saw with Dwight yesterday. We need to start to send more bodies towards the paint in movement. More rolling Centers, more cutting wings and guards. This allows us to rely less on 3 point shooting.
Perhaps the coaching staff feels they can get these guys to eventually make 3 pointers better, at a better rate. Maybe so. But based on what we have seen so far, and the players career rate, you probably want to get Rondo a backcourt mate who is a near 40% three point shooter which Bradley is not (Green and KCP are capable). You probably want to get your overall 3 point shots down to 23-25 a game. The Spurs won a title in 2014 taking under 25 three pointers a game, and I think that's where we should be. We are supremely talented at all areas of the court - defense, passing, offense. There's only area where we are not elite at. 3 point shooting (and FTs). Dunno if it's smart for us to taking so many 3's unless Rob wants to get another 3 point shooters. |
Wolf, we are 24th in 3pts attempted with 30.4. We are still in the middle of the pack(16) , even with those 2 horrendous games in 3pt % with 35.7%
This post was made Dec. 10 (8 days ago)
defense wrote:
We are approaching 50% from 2 point range. we are built to destroy teams in the paint. Then again we are a top 10 3 point shooting team too.
leking006 wrote:
We are actually the #1 3pt shooting team the last 12 games.
At the time, we climb to 10 or 11th if I am not mistaken.
We all continue to do this quick, careless and lightly analysis of our shooting woes base in one or two games.
Many of the things you are saying are true and make sense, but only if we had ADavis playing. Yesterday, our starting PF, Dudley, played a grand total of 15mins.!! Just make the math, Lebron played 35 minutes so he played 20 mins. @ PF. Now you understand why he was so gas out. Even DGreen had to played the other 13 mins. or better said, we played with 4 guards.
We have to wait until we get our players back. Until then we will have to rely more in our defense. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | What do they average when Rondo/AB available? DNP-CD.
So who doesn’t play so long as Rondo/AB are healthy enough to play? As it stands now Caruso is getting like 12 mins with those guys healthy. |
Not sure why you think Payton will deserve to be starting or getting the lion's share of minutes.
Collectively Cook/Troy have played 558 minutes.
Rondo has played a total of 348 minutes, and Bradley 357 minutes. Unless you trust in the durability and health of these guys (I don't), there is literally no downside in replacing Cook/Troy's minutes with a guy like Payton and having him around for insurance.
Unfortunately, based on recent history, Rondo is going to miss games (17 missed in 17-18; 36 missed in 18-19); Bradley has missed 36 in 17-18, 19 missed in 18-19). Your premise assumes these guys will be healthy; i disagree and don't want to be caught with our pants down (aka Cook/Troy being our only options at "PG."). |
Because Cook/Daniels don’t play any significant minutes even when AB or Rondo are out. And they don’t play significant minutes even with both AB and Rondo are out the same time. The player who got the minutes when they were both out? Caruso who played over 30 mins. Daniels played 7 and Cook played 10.
Where we differ, is on whose minutes Payton would take. The box score MPG you referenced is inflated by 20+ mins outings in blowout wins. Example: For Cook, 22 mins in the 29pt blowout against Memphis, 19pt blowout against Hornets, 26 blowout against Bulls, 22pt blowout against Wizards.
The only path to any meaningful minutes for $8M/yr Elfrid Payton is through Caruso and to a lesser degree, KCP. |
That's b/c they don't fit what we needed when AB/Rondo were out, and AC had to play "PG" which I don't think is his ideal role. If we had a Payton level player, he would easily soak those minutes up.
What we can agree upon is that AB/Rondo have injury history and are likely not guys we can depend on to be healthy all year long. My proposal is to take 2 guys who aren't crucial to the rotation to try to find someone who may be. I realize they are weak assets, but it would be trying to find another team's depressed asset in exchange.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | What do they average when Rondo/AB available? DNP-CD.
So who doesn’t play so long as Rondo/AB are healthy enough to play? As it stands now Caruso is getting like 12 mins with those guys healthy. |
Not sure why you think Payton will deserve to be starting or getting the lion's share of minutes.
Collectively Cook/Troy have played 558 minutes.
Rondo has played a total of 348 minutes, and Bradley 357 minutes. Unless you trust in the durability and health of these guys (I don't), there is literally no downside in replacing Cook/Troy's minutes with a guy like Payton and having him around for insurance.
Unfortunately, based on recent history, Rondo is going to miss games (17 missed in 17-18; 36 missed in 18-19); Bradley has missed 36 in 17-18, 19 missed in 18-19). Your premise assumes these guys will be healthy; i disagree and don't want to be caught with our pants down (aka Cook/Troy being our only options at "PG."). |
Because Cook/Daniels don’t play any significant minutes even when AB or Rondo are out. And they don’t play significant minutes even with both AB and Rondo are out the same time. The player who got the minutes when they were both out? Caruso who played over 30 mins. Daniels played 7 and Cook played 10.
Where we differ, is on whose minutes Payton would take. The box score MPG you referenced is inflated by 20+ mins outings in blowout wins. Example: For Cook, 22 mins in the 29pt blowout against Memphis, 19pt blowout against Hornets, 26 blowout against Bulls, 22pt blowout against Wizards.
The only path to any meaningful minutes for $8M/yr Elfrid Payton is through Caruso and to a lesser degree, KCP. |
That's b/c they don't fit what we needed when AB/Rondo were out, and AC had to play "PG" which I don't think is his ideal role. If we had a Payton level player, he would easily soak those minutes up.
What we can agree upon is that AB/Rondo have injury history and are likely not guys we can depend on to be healthy all year long. My proposal is to take 2 guys who aren't crucial to the rotation to try to find someone who may be. I realize they are weak assets, but it would be trying to find another team's depressed asset in exchange. |
You’re right. But they haven’t been healthy all year and we are 24-4. We have plenty of guard depth to shore that up. Why are we trading what remaining assets we have left for insurance when we have gaping holes?
It’s like trading Cook/Daniels for another center. I mean sure, insurance is great, but why add mediocre talent to a position where you are 4 deep even after trading your other guys away?
Maybe this all moot. NY isn’t trading their best PG for our bums. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | You’re right. But they haven’t been healthy all year and we are 24-4. We have plenty of guard depth to shore that up. Why are we trading what remaining assets we have left for insurance when we have gaping holes?
It’s like trading Cook/Daniels for another center. I mean sure, insurance is great, but why add mediocre talent to a position where you are 4 deep even after trading your other guys away?
Maybe this all moot. NY isn’t trading their best PG for our bums. |
Agree about Cook/Troy not being enough for Payton.
But I disagree. I think Payton gets much more playing time if Rondo or AB is out. Cook/Troy simply couldn't cut it for Vogel ergo they didn't play. Anyways it's a moot point b/c they're not enough for a guy like Payton.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | You’re right. But they haven’t been healthy all year and we are 24-4. We have plenty of guard depth to shore that up. Why are we trading what remaining assets we have left for insurance when we have gaping holes?
It’s like trading Cook/Daniels for another center. I mean sure, insurance is great, but why add mediocre talent to a position where you are 4 deep even after trading your other guys away?
Maybe this all moot. NY isn’t trading their best PG for our bums. |
Agree about Cook/Troy not being enough for Payton.
But I disagree. I think Payton gets much more playing time if Rondo or AB is out. Cook/Troy simply couldn't cut it for Vogel ergo they didn't play. Anyways it's a moot point b/c they're not enough for a guy like Payton. |
I’m not disagreeing you yinomes that Payton wouldn’t get minutes. I was merely saying it would come at the expense of Caruso (most likely).
Therefore, it would be wise to trade Caruso since he has actual value to getting a Payton-like deal done, wouldnt play anyway once Payton is here, and his value currently has never been higher. |
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CRoost
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | You’re right. But they haven’t been healthy all year and we are 24-4. We have plenty of guard depth to shore that up. Why are we trading what remaining assets we have left for insurance when we have gaping holes?
It’s like trading Cook/Daniels for another center. I mean sure, insurance is great, but why add mediocre talent to a position where you are 4 deep even after trading your other guys away?
Maybe this all moot. NY isn’t trading their best PG for our bums. |
Agree about Cook/Troy not being enough for Payton.
But I disagree. I think Payton gets much more playing time if Rondo or AB is out. Cook/Troy simply couldn't cut it for Vogel ergo they didn't play. Anyways it's a moot point b/c they're not enough for a guy like Payton. |
I’m not disagreeing you yinomes that Payton wouldn’t get minutes. I was merely saying it would come at the expense of Caruso (most likely).
Therefore, it would be wise to trade Caruso since he has actual value to getting a Payton-like deal done, wouldnt play anyway once Payton is here, and his value currently has never been higher. |
Nah Caruso is here to stay. I would never trade him for someone like Payton. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | You’re right. But they haven’t been healthy all year and we are 24-4. We have plenty of guard depth to shore that up. Why are we trading what remaining assets we have left for insurance when we have gaping holes?
It’s like trading Cook/Daniels for another center. I mean sure, insurance is great, but why add mediocre talent to a position where you are 4 deep even after trading your other guys away?
Maybe this all moot. NY isn’t trading their best PG for our bums. |
Agree about Cook/Troy not being enough for Payton.
But I disagree. I think Payton gets much more playing time if Rondo or AB is out. Cook/Troy simply couldn't cut it for Vogel ergo they didn't play. Anyways it's a moot point b/c they're not enough for a guy like Payton. |
I’m not disagreeing you yinomes that Payton wouldn’t get minutes. I was merely saying it would come at the expense of Caruso (most likely).
Therefore, it would be wise to trade Caruso since he has actual value to getting a Payton-like deal done, wouldnt play anyway once Payton is here, and his value currently has never been higher. |
Nah Caruso is here to stay. I would never trade him for someone like Payton. |
Well, I wouldn’t either but if we were to acquire him for two players who don’t really play, his pathway to minutes is likely through Caruso whether we like that or not.
Also, if we are being realistic about what it would take to get Payton, it is going to have to include a player of actual value. There is no incentive for them to take on two players who they won’t ever play for their best point guard when they don’t have anyone else worth developing. |
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defense
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Rondo is great as a bench player but when we rely on him to close out games things wont always go well. |
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audioaxes
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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we would be much better without Rondo on this team
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mhan00
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Rondo was TERRIBLE in the first half. Just a huge minus. And how the (bleep) does he leave GEORGE HILL, the league leader in 3 point percentage, wide open in the corner? |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Passes up wide open 3 shot clock violation. Can you trust him to shoot in the playoffs?
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Joe Pesci
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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He's a backup PG. He should only get minutes when James sits. At most him and James should share the floor 2 minutes a games.
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ocho
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a player enjoy a reputation for being a high IQ genius while disproving it on the court every chance he gets.
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mhan00
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Vogel needs to do a better job of recognizing when Rondo is playing poorly and pulling him. And that Rondo/AB combo backcourt has looked god awful every time we’ve gone to it. Why does he keep playing them together? |
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LakerMindLA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Rondo hurts this team and isn’t a rotation player on a great team. Unfortunately there is some irrational love with pasa first PGs. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Saw him off ball when LBJ was out tonight. I have no idea what Vogel was thinking. If he's in, especially when Bron is sitting, let him be on ball.
Otherwise, don't play him.
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DancingBarry
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a player enjoy a reputation for being a high IQ genius while disproving it on the court every chance he gets. |
Yeah, my take has been slightly different. I've said ever since he joined the team, he's not as smart as he thinks he is. I think that gets him into trouble quite a bit.
...oh and shoot the #@*(&$#@ ball when you are open in the corner with the clock winding down. Damn. |
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