while i agree to an extent that rondos defense isn't as bad as numbers make them look
the reason his def rtg was 102 without cousins is because the vast majority of those minutes were with holiday and davis
his defensive rtg with davis off the floor, after cousins got injured, was the worst on the team for all players with davis off the floor.
And yet curiously, after the Cousins injury, the team was better during the minutes that Davis/Rondo played together w/o Holiday (+8.1) than when Davis/Holiday played while Rondo sat (+6.8).
Did you get that from nbawowy? Because nbawowy was extremely glitched for this past season, just wondering
Joined: 28 Mar 2011 Posts: 652 Location: Lakersfield!
Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:18 pm Post subject:
Polarbear wrote:
If Rick Fox can become a beloved laker......so can Rajon.
I am just wondering how we fit him under our cap NEXT year.....it looks like it will be extremely tight
For me, the Rondo pill was hard to swallow, he's always been a Celtic to me.
I'll admit, I've done a complete 180. Love the signing and can't wait for the season to start!
Mm. I'll argue that Rick Fox had a much easier time becoming beloved by the Lakers due to his being acquired during a time where neither the Lakers nor the Celtics had been contenders for quite some time.
Rondo on the other hand was one of the reasons we lost to the Celtics in '08 and why they took us to 7 games in '10.
I've personally always respected Rondo as a player though so him coming to our team is fantastic in my eyes.
There's really only one black mark on his record for me and admittedly, it's a situation I don't entirely understand all that well. Few years back he sat on the sidelines and refused to sub in or something as a form or protest against the coach or something to that effect. Can't remember what team he was on either. Maybe someone else can recall this situation better.
Unless, Ball becomes the knockdown shooter he was at UCLA, Rondo should start.
I fully expect Rondo to play well this year and to be resigned for next year as well. This year, and the next should be viewed as Ball’s apprenticeship.
After two years of being challenged and taught by Rondo, Ball will be ready to explode as a solid, savvy nightly triple double threat. One could argue he already is, but I he is neither consistently “solid” nor savvy right now ... not yet.
He’ll get lots of minutes, but unless Ball is the much better shooter than Rondo, “51%” of the minutes should go to Rondo, including closing games.
Nonsense. Lonzo was already a comparable passer as a rookie and was far better on defense.
Maybe his rookie defense wasn't what it is now, but w/o Boogie and his awful hedging on screens, Rondo had a DRTG of 102 last year. Lonzo was mostly the helper on defense, often hidden on a weak offensive player so he could disrupt passing lanes.
Rebounding would push some of Zo's more rudimentary defensive metrics above Rondo's, but those same numbers suggested Boozer's defense was on Noah's level when the two played together, and that Derrick Rose was a lockdown defender in his MVP year. The unholy acronym, indeed. If I type it's name, I lose a bet.
Boogies hedging is lightyears ahead of Lopez’. Boogies hedging is not the reason for Rondos inferior numbers.
Not just the hedging, but Cousins (or perhaps just the bad defensive chemisty of an oversized lineup) was the reason for Rondo's inferior numbers defensively. Rondo had a 113 DRtg w/Cousins, 102 without. He played 40% of his minutes w/ Cousins. Brook doesn't play as many minutes, nor is he defending much PnR action w/ Lonzo because KCP/Hart are the on-ball defenders.
If you're speaking of other metrics that equate rebounding directly to playing defense, and that value steals/blocks over staying in front of their man, we will just have to agree to disagree on the value of such a simple analytic.
I think you’re exaggerating how much Lonzo is off the ball. Defensive rebounding is a huge part of defense, it’s how you end the opponents possession. Same can be said for steals.
Staying in front of your man is important but it doesn’t end a possession. Getting a steal or a rebound does. I value off ball team defense and ability to guard multiple positions more than being able to keep PGs in front especially when considering Lonzos ability to recover and contest shots when he gets beat.
I also think you’d be surprised by Lonzos defensive numbers on the ball. They aren’t bad at all. I’m not just looking at analytics, I’m watching the games and Lonzo is more disruptive than Rondo and can guard more positions because of his size. I agree that Rondo is more adapt at keeping PGs in front of him.
Steals can't be counted on (no one averages even 3 per game), and many years the steals leaders are 4 matadors and Chris Paul. More often than not, a steal attempt whiffs and gives up a high % look.
Off ball defense is essential, yet the first line of defense breaking down will lead to a loss vs elite teams that keep the ball moving. That first line is the on-ball defender. Getting beat and recovering to contest the shot is not something that can be counted on in May/June. There is no rebound to begin with if the lead defensive guard can't stay in front of the opposing pg/playmaker, somewhere down the line there will be a wide open shot from all the helping/recovering.
I wouldn't be surprised if Lonzo's on-ball numbers were good - that's the coaching staff putting him in positions to succeed. He's not guarding Harden or Irving on islands the way KCP was. Heard Cranjis had DLo's on-ball defensive numbers the same as KCP's...one word: assignments.
Of course, most teams aren't Houston or Golden State, so having Rondo w/KCP or Hart in the starting lineup is redundant vs most teams. Lonzo is the better choice for an 82 game season.
Yea I think we just disagree on a fundamental level about defense in general and Lonzo specifically.
I think steals aren’t always reliable because of what you said but the stats and eye test says he’s not constantly going for do or die steals and whiffing. I actually think KCP falls victim to that quite a bit more than Zo. I would be interested to see if there are numbers for that but I think Zo anticipates and gets a steal without whiffing at a better % than KCP.
The second paragraph is where I really disagree. I don’t think the first line of defense is more important simply because the best players are going to beat their man often, no matter who it is. It’s more important to be able to help, rotate, and recover to shooters with a strong contest. Contrary to what you said, I think that is how you win in May and June. I hope(and believe) that’s how the FO has built this roster. Versatile team defenders who can fly around and contest everything and get in passing lanes even if somebody gets beat. Agree to disagree.
Again, he was guarding those guys. You mention that he’s not guarding Harden, so that means he’s guarding CP3. He’s not that much worse if worse at all than Harden. Even with that said, I remember multiple occasions where Zo was guarding Harden. I’m also pretty sure he was guarding Irving when they played but maybe I’m misremembering. KCP was sometimes asked to guard the better player but not always or to the extent you’re implying IMO.
Those stats are misleading but I don’t believe that one instance makes them completely unreliable as a whole. Very fair point though KCP>>>DLO.
Rondo hasn't been a good defender in years and even when Cousins went down he was bad. In NO he played next to two really good defenders that helped him out in that area.
Yea I think we just disagree on a fundamental level about defense in general and Lonzo specifically.
I think steals aren’t always reliable because of what you said but the stats and eye test says he’s not constantly going for do or die steals and whiffing. I actually think KCP falls victim to that quite a bit more than Zo. I would be interested to see if there are numbers for that but I think Zo anticipates and gets a steal without whiffing at a better % than KCP.
The second paragraph is where I really disagree. I don’t think the first line of defense is more important simply because the best players are going to beat their man often, no matter who it is. It’s more important to be able to help, rotate, and recover to shooters with a strong contest. Contrary to what you said, I think that is how you win in May and June. I hope(and believe) that’s how the FO has built this roster. Versatile team defenders who can fly around and contest everything and get in passing lanes even if somebody gets beat. Agree to disagree.
Again, he was guarding those guys. You mention that he’s not guarding Harden, so that means he’s guarding CP3. He’s not that much worse if worse at all than Harden. Even with that said, I remember multiple occasions where Zo was guarding Harden. I’m also pretty sure he was guarding Irving when they played but maybe I’m misremembering. KCP was sometimes asked to guard the better player but not always or to the extent you’re implying IMO.
Those stats are misleading but I don’t believe that one instance makes them completely unreliable as a whole. Very fair point though KCP>>>DLO.
Not lambasting Zo here by any means, he is a smart defender with moxie and discipline beyond his years; just don't want him left prone in any lineup where he's opposite a star guard, especially after arthroscopic surgery. Let him physically mature a couple years and then we can re-evaluate whether he's able to match up with a ball-dominant star on most possessions.
Due to injuries, CP3 and Zo barely saw each other when healthy, maybe a quarter or two. Ball may have guarded Irving in Boston on some trips, but can't imagine KCP primarily on Smart/Brown the whole game.
Help defense is definitely required by a championship-level team in May/June, but even great help defense becomes vulnerable if the opposing coach can count on his star beating his defender/turning the corner/splitting the trap and forcing help too often. A coach like MDA can design sets and simple reads based off on where he expects the help to come from, stuff that otherwise wouldn't work or even result in an open look. Some shooters are barely affected by a good close-out, even if the defense rotates perfectly.
In the NBA good offense will beat good defense more often than not, yet defenders who can force the ballhandler to change direction against his own will, or who can pay the ballhandler straight-up and still dictate which side he dribbles to even some of the time are essential. Effective denial defense that forces the star away from his preferred spots, and out high above the three point line also helps stagnate the offense. Lonzo can deny, but I don't want him on islands with a star this early in his career.
Definitely agree to disagree on Defensive Win Shares, though beginning to see the virtues of Box Plus/Minus, a superior metric to DWS (despite the disastrous results they had on 538's CARMELO projections). Offensive Win Shares are more relevant if anything.
Why? _________________ “Christ did not die to forgive sinners who go on treasuring anything above seeing and savoring God. And people who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there, will not be there."
- John Piper
Those bounce passes are sick. Look forward to seeing that next year.
I'm looking forward to Lonzo and Rondo playing together.
All those off ball looks for Jru, I know Lonzo is gonna get himself open.
And with Rondo and Lebron, it won't be like last year, where KCP, BI and Julius are missing open guys.
Last edited by epak on Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
If Rick Fox can become a beloved laker......so can Rajon.
I am just wondering how we fit him under our cap NEXT year.....it looks like it will be extremely tight
For me, the Rondo pill was hard to swallow, he's always been a Celtic to me.
I'll admit, I've done a complete 180. Love the signing and can't wait for the season to start!
Mm. I'll argue that Rick Fox had a much easier time becoming beloved by the Lakers due to his being acquired during a time where neither the Lakers nor the Celtics had been contenders for quite some time.
Rondo on the other hand was one of the reasons we lost to the Celtics in '08 and why they took us to 7 games in '10.
I've personally always respected Rondo as a player though so him coming to our team is fantastic in my eyes.
There's really only one black mark on his record for me and admittedly, it's a situation I don't entirely understand all that well. Few years back he sat on the sidelines and refused to sub in or something as a form or protest against the coach or something to that effect. Can't remember what team he was on either. Maybe someone else can recall this situation better.
i think he was on the Mavs.
just watched his highlights from last year. Wow he is sneaky!
Those bounce passes are sick. Look forward to seeing that next year.
I'm looking forward to Lonzo and Rondo playing together.
All those off ball looks for Jru, I know Lonzo is gonna get himself open.
And with Rondo and Lebron, it won't be like last year, were KCP, BI and Julius are missing open guys.
I think Zo will learn a lot playing with Rondo for a year.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 2456 Location: Seoul, Korea
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:12 am Post subject:
mookielala wrote:
epak wrote:
mookielala wrote:
Tanlentueux wrote:
hdtvset wrote:
Rondo should start over Ball.
Yeah !
Those bounce passes are sick. Look forward to seeing that next year.
I'm looking forward to Lonzo and Rondo playing together.
All those off ball looks for Jru, I know Lonzo is gonna get himself open.
And with Rondo and Lebron, it won't be like last year, were KCP, BI and Julius are missing open guys.
I think Zo will learn a lot playing with Rondo for a year.
I wouldn't be surprised if Lonzo's on-ball numbers were good - that's the coaching staff putting him in positions to succeed. He's not guarding Harden or Irving on islands the way KCP was.
Nevertheless:
Perhaps the coaches haven't asked him to guard Harden very much, but not because he's not capable. He's shown the raw ability.
Give Lonzo time to develop his strength and savvy. He can be really good.
He has to play to develop. He has to play in the right situations, and learn from his mistakes. There will be bumps in the road. But after watching him last season, I'm at a loss to understand where all the pessimism about his defense comes from.
If you think we're going to win a championship next year, I could understand the demand we play the more mature and experienced guy more, and ignore development. But it doesn't seem like we're aiming for a championship in the first year of LeBron. We're in this for the long haul, to win many championships, and we have to develop Lonzo and the kids to make that happen.
IMO Rondo and Ball will be outstanding together. With the addition of LABron, this will be a great learning experience for them. The competition will push each one to be better.
Rondo has that killer instinct that Zo needs to develop if he wants to reach his full potential. Rondo should be rejuvenated and excited to help lead and mentor Zo, plus the young, core as we usher in a new era of Lakers basketball.
Rondo hasn't been a good defender in years and even when Cousins went down he was bad. In NO he played next to two really good defenders that helped him out in that area.
I don't know what the analytics say, but I know what my "eye test" says and playoff Rondo is not just a good defender, I would say he is a great defender. _________________ Love, Laker Lanny
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144466 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:04 am Post subject:
LakerLanny wrote:
Practice wrote:
Rondo hasn't been a good defender in years and even when Cousins went down he was bad. In NO he played next to two really good defenders that helped him out in that area.
I don't know what the analytics say, but I know what my "eye test" says and playoff Rondo is not just a good defender, I would say he is a great defender.
Curry is a great player, once he returned from injury he torched Rondo. Not a knock against Rondo but great players typically dominate good players. I don’t expect Rondo to make a difference against the better perimeter players, GS and Houston have the horses and we don’t. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Rondo hasn't been a good defender in years and even when Cousins went down he was bad. In NO he played next to two really good defenders that helped him out in that area.
I don't know what the analytics say, but I know what my "eye test" says and playoff Rondo is not just a good defender, I would say he is a great defender.
Analytics say he is below average defender. _________________ "He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though."
Joined: 28 Nov 2007 Posts: 11277 Location: Bay Area
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:19 am Post subject: Re: !
KOBE WAN wrote:
The Nightbringer wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
If Rick Fox can become a beloved laker......so can Rajon.
I am just wondering how we fit him under our cap NEXT year.....it looks like it will be extremely tight
For me, the Rondo pill was hard to swallow, he's always been a Celtic to me.
I'll admit, I've done a complete 180. Love the signing and can't wait for the season to start!
Mm. I'll argue that Rick Fox had a much easier time becoming beloved by the Lakers due to his being acquired during a time where neither the Lakers nor the Celtics had been contenders for quite some time.
Rondo on the other hand was one of the reasons we lost to the Celtics in '08 and why they took us to 7 games in '10.
I've personally always respected Rondo as a player though so him coming to our team is fantastic in my eyes.
There's really only one black mark on his record for me and admittedly, it's a situation I don't entirely understand all that well. Few years back he sat on the sidelines and refused to sub in or something as a form or protest against the coach or something to that effect. Can't remember what team he was on either. Maybe someone else can recall this situation better.
i think he was on the Mavs.
just watched his highlights from last year. Wow he is sneaky!
Wondering if @Polarbear can separate our comments back into 2 separate posts. Not that I disagree, it’s just odd seeing my post as part of his.
Rondo hasn't been a good defender in years and even when Cousins went down he was bad. In NO he played next to two really good defenders that helped him out in that area.
I don't know what the analytics say, but I know what my "eye test" says and playoff Rondo is not just a good defender, I would say he is a great defender.
Curry is a great player, once he returned from injury he torched Rondo. Not a knock against Rondo but great players typically dominate good players. I don’t expect Rondo to make a difference against the better perimeter players, GS and Houston have the horses and we don’t.
On the flip side he’s had his way with Curry and Paul _________________ Coach Vogel, Kidd, Hollins
Max slot : Kawhi
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I think Zo will learn a lot playing with Rondo for a year.
