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drae
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:20 pm    Post subject:

The Wizards broadcast after Rondo hit his second three "You can't leave Rondo open, this is not the old Rondo where you can play off him and dare him to shoot". I don't think it will happen but if teams start to really defend him...man lol

https://twitter.com/UnwrittenRul3s/status/1200839826959818752
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:31 pm    Post subject:

drae wrote:
The Wizards broadcast after Rondo hit his second three "You can't leave Rondo open, this is not the old Rondo where you can play off him and dare him to shoot". I don't think it will happen but if teams start to really defend him...man lol

https://twitter.com/UnwrittenRul3s/status/1200839826959818752


Nice!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:49 pm    Post subject:

When Bradley comes back I hope Vogel has enough sense to put Rondo on DNP status.
I'd even put Cook in before Rondo.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:17 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
LakerLogic wrote:
Rondo isn't even great on offense but we have 0 playmakers outside of LBJ. Unfortunately, Caruso is not great at this point offensively.

I hope we get lucky on the buyout market.


Right. LBJ will likely play 35mpg. Play rondo for the 12-13mpg LBJ is off the floor and that should be it.

Disagree.

Bring Rondo in with Lebron, like Frank has. So Lebron can start going a bit off the ball, and Rondo can get into the flow of the game, slowly. Then, when Lebron sits, you test out what Rondo is capable of that night. If it is non-factor scoring and not enough D, you sit him the rest of the game. If he does well, you can actually keep him out there for a 10-12 minute run, and Lebron can go off the ball when he returns in to the game.

Lebron has been a monster in the post ups and off the ball. What Rondo can do for Lebron is allow him to rest, and then come into the games focused on making shots. Then you sit Rondo and close the half/game with the best defensive group, and you have a Lebron who can revert back to the QB, only he has his shot working as well. How many times did we wish we had someone who could do that for Kobe, or how many times did it help that Lamar would come in and provide that playmaking for the 2nd unit and Kobe/Pau? This is what Rondo is. Sort of like Lamar, he does not have a reliable outside shot or constant scoring game. But his ability to make post entry passes and just handle the ball, is elite. And then you have your best scorers in position to score. Lebron's best position to score is not from a PG spot. Which is how he is starting off games.


We can dance around the subject but the fact is, we're simply better with Rondo not on the floor. The combo of Lebron/Rondo on the floor has simply been putrid.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:29 pm    Post subject:

I keep hearing about how intelligent this guy is supposed to be, and then he gets himself ejected losing infantile mind games against some german youngling.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:31 am    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
LakerLogic wrote:
Rondo isn't even great on offense but we have 0 playmakers outside of LBJ. Unfortunately, Caruso is not great at this point offensively.

I hope we get lucky on the buyout market.


Right. LBJ will likely play 35mpg. Play rondo for the 12-13mpg LBJ is off the floor and that should be it.

Disagree.

Bring Rondo in with Lebron, like Frank has. So Lebron can start going a bit off the ball, and Rondo can get into the flow of the game, slowly. Then, when Lebron sits, you test out what Rondo is capable of that night. If it is non-factor scoring and not enough D, you sit him the rest of the game. If he does well, you can actually keep him out there for a 10-12 minute run, and Lebron can go off the ball when he returns in to the game.

Lebron has been a monster in the post ups and off the ball. What Rondo can do for Lebron is allow him to rest, and then come into the games focused on making shots. Then you sit Rondo and close the half/game with the best defensive group, and you have a Lebron who can revert back to the QB, only he has his shot working as well. How many times did we wish we had someone who could do that for Kobe, or how many times did it help that Lamar would come in and provide that playmaking for the 2nd unit and Kobe/Pau? This is what Rondo is. Sort of like Lamar, he does not have a reliable outside shot or constant scoring game. But his ability to make post entry passes and just handle the ball, is elite. And then you have your best scorers in position to score. Lebron's best position to score is not from a PG spot. Which is how he is starting off games.


We can dance around the subject but the fact is, we're simply better with Rondo not on the floor. The combo of Lebron/Rondo on the floor has simply been putrid.


Yeah, numbers do not lie and the eye test shows that too.

It's one thing to be a preternatural passer who sets the team up so nicely that his bad defense can be tolerated.

It's another to have an assist padder who monopolizes the ball so much, causes anti-gravity (watch the Dallas game and how many times the defender slouched off Rondo again), and is atrocious on defense.

I would limit Rondo to a max of 2 6-7 minute shifts. If on his first shift, he is not bringing it, then do not play him on the 2nd shift.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:58 am    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
LakerLogic wrote:
Rondo isn't even great on offense but we have 0 playmakers outside of LBJ. Unfortunately, Caruso is not great at this point offensively.

I hope we get lucky on the buyout market.


Right. LBJ will likely play 35mpg. Play rondo for the 12-13mpg LBJ is off the floor and that should be it.

Disagree.

Bring Rondo in with Lebron, like Frank has. So Lebron can start going a bit off the ball, and Rondo can get into the flow of the game, slowly. Then, when Lebron sits, you test out what Rondo is capable of that night. If it is non-factor scoring and not enough D, you sit him the rest of the game. If he does well, you can actually keep him out there for a 10-12 minute run, and Lebron can go off the ball when he returns in to the game.

Lebron has been a monster in the post ups and off the ball. What Rondo can do for Lebron is allow him to rest, and then come into the games focused on making shots. Then you sit Rondo and close the half/game with the best defensive group, and you have a Lebron who can revert back to the QB, only he has his shot working as well. How many times did we wish we had someone who could do that for Kobe, or how many times did it help that Lamar would come in and provide that playmaking for the 2nd unit and Kobe/Pau? This is what Rondo is. Sort of like Lamar, he does not have a reliable outside shot or constant scoring game. But his ability to make post entry passes and just handle the ball, is elite. And then you have your best scorers in position to score. Lebron's best position to score is not from a PG spot. Which is how he is starting off games.


We can dance around the subject but the fact is, we're simply better with Rondo not on the floor. The combo of Lebron/Rondo on the floor has simply been putrid.

I do not agree with this, I think Rondo has some unrealistic expectations by some, in that they expect him to be a quality 2-way point guard each night and he is not that, and has not been that for a long time. He is a backup, who can come in and allow Lebron to go off the ball. So far, the biggest problem has been that Rondo has not been able to get the 2nd unit going without Lebron. At some point we need to accomplish that hopefully.

I recall that Suns game, when Rondo came in, the Lakers played fantastic ball. The Lakers are one of the league leaders in assists. If the Lakers can get Rondo to find a consistent role on the team, they will have a huge weapon in the playoffs in that they'll have a QB 48 minutes of a game. Come playoffs teams are going to scheme and find ways to stall Lebron as a PG. They will make his life hell, I am sure of it. They are going to run a lot of schemes to get the ball out of Lebron's hands late in the possession, leaving a Danny Green, Avery Bradley, KCP, Kuzma or AD to create a play from the perimeter. When Rondo is in, you can't do that as much, as Lebron can be your scoring target who would get the ball close to the basket from Rondo. Rondo would not be hounded the same way, and I think it will work to our advantage if we can get Rondo in the games for 18-20 minutes.

For whatever it is worth I think a lot of the Rondo stuff comes from last year. Here is a comparison of Walton coached Rondo and Vogel coached Rondo.

O rating (+10 this year vs last year)
Rondo last year 100
Rondo this year 110

D rating (-5 this year vs last year)
Rondo last year 110
Rondo this year 105

BPM
Rondo last year -1.5
Rondo this year -0.8

True shooting percentage
Rondo last year 47.3
Rondo this year 54

+/- 100 possessions
Rondo last year -8.0
Rondo this year +3.2

Look at those, clearly he is not doing like last year, and there has been a big improvement in his impact on the court. However, the problem I see is when he plays and the team plays bad, his suckage sticks out like a sore thumb. He is not a good man defender, he can cause some confusion with over dribbling. He looks bad when we play bad. It sticks out. This is why Frank has to know what to do with him, and so far, I think Frank has done a decent job of finding ways to use him.

Biggest problem on this team is that we do not have enough shot makers on the 2nd unit. We need Kuzma to be more consistent. We need Rondo to have some weapons around him. Dwight is barely used on offense. Caruso is a great defender but not really a scorer. So often you're seeing a 2nd unit that has Rondo who is more a passer than scorer, Dwight who is basically a non-scorer, and Kuzma who is inconsistent. We need to find ways to get some more shot makers out there and use Dwight more, because I think he can be score a lot more than he is.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:04 am    Post subject:

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Yeah, numbers do not lie and the eye test shows that too.

The numbers for him individually show he is doing a lot better this year than last year. BPM, O and D rating. True shooting percentage. 3 point shooting. His +/- per 100 possessions. All way up.

People seem to have a story on Rondo before the season even began. I saw it all the threads. There have been some games where those stories held true. A lot were not. You can't say these generalized statements without proof. The stats do not show that Rondo is playing badly, at least in comparison to a typical backup point guard.

Now does that I mean I think it will work out? No. But there are things Rondo can do for Lebron (and AD) that won't show up on the stat sheet anytime soon. I keep saying it, we have not faced the type of defenses Lebron will face as a PG in the playoffs. They will find ways to get the ball out of his hands late in the shotclock. They do that to AD already. They send doubles his way to get him to take a tough contested shot or move the ball late in a shot clock. That's why a PG is important. Rondo can get the ball up and deliver the ball to AD and Lebron earlier in the possession in a better spot on the floor. You don't want Lebron playing PG 40+ minutes a game in the playoffs. To me that is Rondo's only value to the team right now. Even if he is shooting well, having some good scoring nights. I don't care about his numbers. Until I see someone on the roster who is better than him, I would like to have a PG on the roster that can shift Lebron to off the ball in games in the playoffs for portions of the game.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:06 am    Post subject:

It's simple.

1. Never play LBJ/Rondo together. It's a recipe for disaster.
2. Only play Rondo with AD. They should run PnRs together.
3. Do not put Kuz out there with Rondo. Those two defensively are horrific.
4. Limit Rondo to at most, 2 6-7 minute shifts a game. Anything more and you're asking for trouble. If he doesn't have "it" in his first shift, move on from him. To his credit, Vogel has done this in a few games.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:09 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, numbers do not lie and the eye test shows that too.

The numbers for him individually show he is doing a lot better this year than last year. BPM, O and D rating. True shooting percentage. 3 point shooting. His +/- per 100 possessions. All way up.

People seem to have a story on Rondo before the season even began. I saw it all the threads. There have been some games where those stories held true. A lot were not. You can't say these generalized statements without proof. The stats do not show that Rondo is playing badly, at least in comparison to a typical backup point guard.

Now does that I mean I think it will work out? No. But there are things Rondo can do for Lebron (and AD) that won't show up on the stat sheet anytime soon. I keep saying it, we have not faced the type of defenses Lebron will face as a PG in the playoffs. They will find ways to get the ball out of his hands late in the shotclock. They do that to AD already. They send doubles his way to get him to take a tough contested shot or move the ball late in a shot clock. That's why a PG is important. Rondo can get the ball up and deliver the ball to AD and Lebron earlier in the possession in a better spot on the floor. You don't want Lebron playing PG 40+ minutes a game in the playoffs. To me that is Rondo's only value to the team right now. Even if he is shooting well, having some good scoring nights. I don't care about his numbers. Until I see someone on the roster who is better than him, I would like to have a PG on the roster that can shift Lebron to off the ball in games in the playoffs for portions of the game.


I watch the games too. Rondo is very bad. Defensively, one of the worst I've seen in a while, and that's including the past 6 years.

He needs to be at most a 12-14mpg. And don't play him with LBJ. My comment about the number not lying is his aggregate stats with LBJ.

How do you put a stat's wet dream in LBJ in the negative territory? That's the Rondo effect on LBJ.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:21 am    Post subject:

A good coach who wants to win championships does not do that after 20 games and only 7-8 games with these 2 players. Kuzma and Rondo have been off, Kuzma much more than Rondo. Rondo has actually had more positive games than negative, and as much as I can respect that others watch games, I think a lot of the Rondo stuff was predetermined agenda. I would certainly pull the plug on a lot of things if this were the playoffs. We have 60 games until then.

The 2nd unit in general is unrealiable and suffers from lack of shot making, Kuzma's O rating is 97. What we want from his 3nD and whatever on top of that is bonus, and he is not consistent at that. May take him a year if he ever gets that. Rondo's D is bad, I agree. However he has made shots, and maybe he has been the only 2nd unit player the last few weeks who consistently makes shots.

IMO What we need is a 2nd unit that has some shotmaking on it. around Rondo. If we rely on Rondo to be our #1 shotmaker on the 2nd unit, we're weak. We need to use Howard more on offense, we need to get some more 3 point shooting off the bench. Perhaps sub Danny Green out earlier and bring him back with the 2nd unit. We do not have enough weapons on the 2nd unit.

Interested to see the rotation when Bradley is back.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:26 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
It's simple.

1. Never play LBJ/Rondo together. It's a recipe for disaster.
2. Only play Rondo with AD. They should run PnRs together.
3. Do not put Kuz out there with Rondo. Those two defensively are horrific.
4. Limit Rondo to at most, 2 6-7 minute shifts a game. Anything more and you're asking for trouble. If he doesn't have "it" in his first shift, move on from him. To his credit, Vogel has done this in a few games.


This is 100% the issue with Rondo and Kuz.

The defensive drop off is massive when both are on the court together. I think Kuz is fine if there is no Rondo unless he is facing a top end wing and then he’s cooked.

Rondo just can’t play defense at this stage of his career. Best case scenario with him is net neutral, scoring/assisting on as many points as he gives up. I’d rather just find a more balanced PG.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:28 am    Post subject:

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A good coach who wants to win championships does not do that after 20 games and only 7-8 games with these 2 players. Kuzma and Rondo have been off, Kuzma much more than Rondo. Rondo has actually had more positive games than negative, and as much as I can respect that others watch games, I think a lot of the Rondo stuff was predetermined agenda. I would certainly pull the plug on a lot of things if this were the playoffs.


But this is the result of Bradley's injuries. This was our guard rotation:

Bradley: 27.4mpg
Green: 25.4mpg
KCP: 23.2mpg
Caruso: 20.2mpg.

Somehow Troy (15.2mpg) and Cook (14.2mpg) have averaged decent minutes too.

So Green plays some "SF" but we have 6 guys vying for a combined 96mpg.

Rondo right now is averaging 20mpg, but a lot of his minutes came during Bradley's absence. Something is going to give here. Take out Troy and Cook entirely from the rotation and you still have on a MPG average, 116mpg at the two guard spots.

KCP at "SF" is not a good solution. Maybe you can squeeze a few more SF minutes from Green, but regardless, the minutes crunch will remain, ergo, my argument for Rondo being a 2 shift player now.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:34 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Quote:
A good coach who wants to win championships does not do that after 20 games and only 7-8 games with these 2 players. Kuzma and Rondo have been off, Kuzma much more than Rondo. Rondo has actually had more positive games than negative, and as much as I can respect that others watch games, I think a lot of the Rondo stuff was predetermined agenda. I would certainly pull the plug on a lot of things if this were the playoffs.


But this is the result of Bradley's injuries. This was our guard rotation:

Bradley: 27.4mpg
Green: 25.4mpg
KCP: 23.2mpg
Caruso: 20.2mpg.

Somehow Troy (15.2mpg) and Cook (14.2mpg) have averaged decent minutes too.

So Green plays some "SF" but we have 6 guys vying for a combined 96mpg.

Rondo right now is averaging 20mpg, but a lot of his minutes came during Bradley's absence. Something is going to give here. Take out Troy and Cook entirely from the rotation and you still have on a MPG average, 116mpg at the two guard spots.

KCP at "SF" is not a good solution. Maybe you can squeeze a few more SF minutes from Green, but regardless, the minutes crunch will remain, ergo, my argument for Rondo being a 2 shift player now.

That's why I want to see what things look like with Bradley. Bradley is huge for this team on defense. Do not what his D will be like coming back from an injury, but we should make sure he is healthy first and 100%. Once he is, then you have the opportunity to even bring a defensive 3nD player like Danny Green off the bench. Why? KCP seems to play much better as a starter than bench guy, and Danny Green would give that 2nd unit a shotmaker. And a defender. As a 2nd unit guy, Green could slide in from 3/2. You can run some good defensive 2nd unit lineups with Howard, AD/Lebron, Kuzma, Green, Rondo. Sub out Rondo or Kuzma depending on who is playing worse on D, and bring in Caruso for them.

Something like

McGee/Davis/James/KCP/Bradley
Howard/Davis or James/Kuzma/Green/Rondo
Howard/Davis or James/Green/Caruso/Rondo or Kuzma (if Kuzma in, then Caruso takes point on D, if Rondo in, Green takes the 3).

Can close with Davis, James, Green, Caruso and Bradley, to get the best defensive lineup and spacing.

To me that should be our rough blueprint for the playoffs barring some mid-season trades (which I am open to).
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:44 am    Post subject:

I'm just not a point where Rondo "deserves" a preset amount of minutes.

If he kills on shift 1, go for shift 2. If he continues killing, then so be it.

But Vogel has in a few games, just yanked out Rondo after shift 1 b/c of atrocious defense and not moving the ball on offense.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:10 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I'm just not a point where Rondo "deserves" a preset amount of minutes.

If he kills on shift 1, go for shift 2. If he continues killing, then so be it.

But Vogel has in a few games, just yanked out Rondo after shift 1 b/c of atrocious defense and not moving the ball on offense.


Exactly, and come in playoff time, Lebron & AD will be playing 38/39 minutes, so Kuzma/Rondo playing time will diminish greatly.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:48 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Quote:
A good coach who wants to win championships does not do that after 20 games and only 7-8 games with these 2 players. Kuzma and Rondo have been off, Kuzma much more than Rondo. Rondo has actually had more positive games than negative, and as much as I can respect that others watch games, I think a lot of the Rondo stuff was predetermined agenda. I would certainly pull the plug on a lot of things if this were the playoffs.


But this is the result of Bradley's injuries. This was our guard rotation:

Bradley: 27.4mpg
Green: 25.4mpg
KCP: 23.2mpg
Caruso: 20.2mpg.

Somehow Troy (15.2mpg) and Cook (14.2mpg) have averaged decent minutes too.

So Green plays some "SF" but we have 6 guys vying for a combined 96mpg.

Rondo right now is averaging 20mpg, but a lot of his minutes came during Bradley's absence. Something is going to give here. Take out Troy and Cook entirely from the rotation and you still have on a MPG average, 116mpg at the two guard spots.

KCP at "SF" is not a good solution. Maybe you can squeeze a few more SF minutes from Green, but regardless, the minutes crunch will remain, ergo, my argument for Rondo being a 2 shift player now.

That's why I want to see what things look like with Bradley. Bradley is huge for this team on defense. Do not what his D will be like coming back from an injury, but we should make sure he is healthy first and 100%. Once he is, then you have the opportunity to even bring a defensive 3nD player like Danny Green off the bench. Why? KCP seems to play much better as a starter than bench guy, and Danny Green would give that 2nd unit a shotmaker. And a defender. As a 2nd unit guy, Green could slide in from 3/2. You can run some good defensive 2nd unit lineups with Howard, AD/Lebron, Kuzma, Green, Rondo. Sub out Rondo or Kuzma depending on who is playing worse on D, and bring in Caruso for them.

Something like

McGee/Davis/James/KCP/Bradley
Howard/Davis or James/Kuzma/Green/Rondo
Howard/Davis or James/Green/Caruso/Rondo or Kuzma (if Kuzma in, then Caruso takes point on D, if Rondo in, Green takes the 3).

Can close with Davis, James, Green, Caruso and Bradley, to get the best defensive lineup and spacing.

To me that should be our rough blueprint for the playoffs barring some mid-season trades (which I am open to).


Nah. Green should start . His spacing allows more room for Lebron and AD to operate their pick and roll and also their iso. Looking at the big picture, that’s what we need to develop comes playoff time because that will be our bread and butter so to speak . So whatever best compliment them should be our priority not KCP.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:54 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I'm just not a point where Rondo "deserves" a preset amount of minutes.

If he kills on shift 1, go for shift 2. If he continues killing, then so be it.

But Vogel has in a few games, just yanked out Rondo after shift 1 b/c of atrocious defense and not moving the ball on offense.


This is the most desirable objective for Rondo. We want Lebron to get more rest but Rondo has to play well to get those minutes. Defensively , he need to step up. His offense is not enough to compensate his defensive shortcomings. Same with Kuz. If his shots is not falling. Get to the line, play defense and hustle. This is why Caruso deserved all the playing time because he does all those little things even he can’t run the offense like Rondo does.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:29 pm    Post subject:

Played much better tonight. There’s a role for him on this team. Vogel should just yank him when he doesn’t have it on a given night. Great job tonight.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:42 pm    Post subject:

We need rondo, he sets up out bigs for easy baskets, and that’s huge
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:48 pm    Post subject:

If he keeps playing like this, fans aren’t gonna be critical anymore. he’s now shooting 48% from the 3pt line.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:48 pm    Post subject:

If only this guy had any lateral mobility left. Dude can pass the hell outta the ball but he has no more tread left on them tires.
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moonriver24
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Joined: 21 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:57 pm    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
If he keeps playing like this, fans aren’t gonna be critical anymore. he’s now shooting 48% from the 3pt line.

That dude came back from injury and is already out of his prime. YET, you see his minutes and contribution so far, he does seem to get paid too cheap.
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 52834

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:07 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Played much better tonight. There’s a role for him on this team. Vogel should just yank him when he doesn’t have it on a given night. Great job tonight.

His value is that 6 out of 10 games he gives you what he did tonight and can help Lebron and AD to do what they did on offense tonight. In 4 games he will be awful or non impact, and his D will stick out. However that is where Frank has to reign in the minutes. I think Frank did a great job of reducing Kuzma's minutes tonight, to around where they ought to be.

Dwight and Caruso are our most consistent players off the bench, but what Rondo can do is also extremely valuable when it works. When it does not, you sit him. Can not wait until Bradley is back. Still think we should consider bringing Danny Green off the bench and to start Bradley with KCP. Look at how good Rondo and the 2nd unit looked when Daniels was hitting his 3s. Now imagine having Green out there too. You can run a 2nd unit of Dwight, AD/Lebron staggering, Green, Daniels and Rondo. Sub in Caruso when you wanna get some more D, and sit Daniels if he is not instant 3s.
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blackmamba08
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Joined: 09 Jun 2015
Posts: 1785
Location: Croatia

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:13 pm    Post subject:

Brilliant game by Rondo. I wish he is healthy more. He can still contribute big time. Hope he will be ready for playoffs.
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