Which set of role players was better: 2000-02 dynasty or 2009-10?

 
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madsen35
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:37 pm    Post subject: Which set of role players was better: 2000-02 dynasty or 2009-10?

Simple question: which role players were better? The ones in the 2000-02 championship era, or the 2009-10 era? For the sake of the discussion, the following players won't be considered role players: Shaq, Kobe, Pau, Lamar Odom and Andrew Bynum.


2000-02 era: Brian Shaw, Devean George, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Jelani McCoy, Mike Penberthy, JR Rider, Mark Madsen, Slava Medvedenko, Mitch Richmond, AC Green, Lindsey Hunter, Tyronn Lue, Horace Grant, Greg Foster, John Salley, Glen Rice

2009-10 era: Derek Fisher, Trevor Ariza, Shannon Brown, Luke Walton, Jordan Farmar, Sasha Vujacic, Josh Powell, DJ Mbenga, Adam Morrison, Metta World Peace, Chris Mihm

(I know it's a little tricky because Fisher is on both teams. It's also difficult because the 2000-02 era encompasses three years while 2009-10 is only two years worth of players. But I thought it would still be a fun debate.)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:35 pm    Post subject:

09-10 has the best player (TA), but 00-02 has the best collection.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:39 pm    Post subject:

Ariza is virtually the only player who had a career in the NBA after the Lakers on that second team...
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madsen35
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:58 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
Ariza is virtually the only player who had a career in the NBA after the Lakers on that second team...


I think the second group was more athletic. Not necessarily better basketball players, but more athletic. The 2000-02 Lakers probably would have killed for someone like Farmar, with his speed and hops. Or even Mbenga. Shaq's backups were terrible. Mbenga was at least athletic and could block some shots.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:17 pm    Post subject:

madsen35 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Ariza is virtually the only player who had a career in the NBA after the Lakers on that second team...


I think the second group was more athletic. Not necessarily better basketball players, but more athletic. The 2000-02 Lakers probably would have killed for someone like Farmar, with his speed and hops. Or even Mbenga. Shaq's backups were terrible. Mbenga was at least athletic and could block some shots.


Or Elden Campbell, who ironically ended up guarding Shaq in the 2004 finals... Wonder what would have happened had the Rice trade not happened.
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2019
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:47 pm    Post subject:

I'd argue both Bynum and Lamar should be considered the role players but given the way you presented it.. without a doubt the 2000-2002.

I don't even think it's remotely close.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:36 pm    Post subject:

2019 wrote:
I'd argue both Bynum and Lamar should be considered the role players but given the way you presented it.. without a doubt the 2000-2002.

I don't even think it's remotely close.


Yeah Bynum, Lamar, and Artest were "role players" but really good role players borderline all stars and better than any of the role players in the Shaq era. So if you include those three players, then the post Shaq era teams had better role players.
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madsen35
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:37 pm    Post subject:

2019 wrote:
I'd argue both Bynum and Lamar should be considered the role players but given the way you presented it.. without a doubt the 2000-2002.

I don't even think it's remotely close.


Yeah, I hear ya. I hesitated to include them simply because Bynum was all-star caliber, and Odom was very good. I was hoping to examine the "glue" guys, not so much the top players on the teams.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:45 pm    Post subject:

KBandKB wrote:
2019 wrote:
I'd argue both Bynum and Lamar should be considered the role players but given the way you presented it.. without a doubt the 2000-2002.

I don't even think it's remotely close.


Yeah Bynum, Lamar, and Artest were "role players" but really good role players borderline all stars and better than any of the role players in the Shaq era. So if you include those three players, then the post Shaq era teams had better role players.


Bynum averaged 6.3 ppg and 3.7 rpg in 17.4 mpg in the 2009 playoffs and 8.6 and 6.9 in 24.4 mpg in the 2010 playoffs. Those aren’t all star numbers.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:06 pm    Post subject:

2019 wrote:
I'd argue both Bynum and Lamar should be considered the role players but given the way you presented it.. without a doubt the 2000-2002.

I don't even think it's remotely close.


Definitely depends on categorization. Bynum was an All-Star though and Lamar was a near all-star. They were both top 50 players. Which makes it hard to compare those two teams.

From the 2000 teams Glen Rice was their third best player and he only really participated in the first title. The rest of the titles who was their third best player? Fisher or Horry depending on who was hot I guess. If not them Rick Fox? Grant and Green were on their last legs and only there for part of it, as was Harper, Richmond and while Rider was still young he was already done. Fox, Horry and Fisher were very good role players though throughout. Shaw and George were up and down but quality in their roles.

The last title run was built very differently. They had way more star power in sheer numbers replacing Shaq with Pau, Bynum and Odom. Other teams had better big threes but nobody had a better big four in terms of talent. Their role players were up and down with Ariza only being there for 1 1/2 years (and hurt the first year), MWP only really had one solid year and even then he was showing signs of age. The machine was a very good bench player for one season. Walton had one good year. Fisher, Brown and Farmar were okay in their roles. But if we're talking #5-12 they were not on par with the Shaq/Kobe team role players. If we're talking #3-12 I think that's a completely different story.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:45 am    Post subject:

Cutheon wrote:
09-10 has the best player (TA), but 00-02 has the best collection.


Ariza wasn't on the 09-10 Lakers.


CandyCanes wrote:
Ariza is virtually the only player who had a career in the NBA after the Lakers on that second team...


True, but MWP had quite the career before he got to the Lakers.

Ditto on the 00-02 Lakers:
Prior NBA Champions - Grant, Salley, Harper, Horry, Green
Prior All Stars - Rice, Richmond
All Rookie - Fox, Shaw, Hunter, Rider

The 00-02 Lakers reserves were misnamed by Cuban as "The Merry Men of Minimum" - they had some talented, tough, smart guys to fill in the gaps.
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Cutheon
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:36 am    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
Cutheon wrote:
09-10 has the best player (TA), but 00-02 has the best collection.


Ariza wasn't on the 09-10 Lakers.


CandyCanes wrote:
Ariza is virtually the only player who had a career in the NBA after the Lakers on that second team...


True, but MWP had quite the career before he got to the Lakers.

Ditto on the 00-02 Lakers:
Prior NBA Champions - Grant, Salley, Harper, Horry, Green
Prior All Stars - Rice, Richmond
All Rookie - Fox, Shaw, Hunter, Rider

The 00-02 Lakers reserves were misnamed by Cuban as "The Merry Men of Minimum" - they had some talented, tough, smart guys to fill in the gaps.


I know, I was using the “group” he was assigned to
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:00 am    Post subject:

Shaq and Horace Grant were almost a perfect fit and that team might have been the best Laker team ever, so I would go with the 2000-2001 group.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:20 am    Post subject:

Bynum and Odom were definitely role players. That 2 peat was truly a testimony to Kobe's greatness because overall those teams he brought to 3 straight finals and 2 championships were not "that good" compared to some historic teams yet they faced some very fierce competition including that Celtics super team.
Kobe doesnt get nearly enough credit for that.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:27 pm    Post subject:

audioaxes wrote:
Bynum and Odom were definitely role players. That 2 peat was truly a testimony to Kobe's greatness because overall those teams he brought to 3 straight finals and 2 championships were not "that good" compared to some historic teams yet they faced some very fierce competition including that Celtics super team.
Kobe doesnt get nearly enough credit for that.


I think those two teams actually had a really easy path to the championship relative to most other teams.

2009:

8th seed Jazz
Taken to seven games by Rockets without McGrady and Yao
Carmelo/Billups Nuggets
Dwight-led Magic with Turkiglu as the second best player

2010:
OKC
Jazz for the third straight year
Suns with an old Nash and no Marion or D'Antoni
Celtics with post-injury KG (so not the same player)
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:01 pm    Post subject:

audioaxes wrote:
Bynum and Odom were definitely role players. That 2 peat was truly a testimony to Kobe's greatness because overall those teams he brought to 3 straight finals and 2 championships were not "that good" compared to some historic teams yet they faced some very fierce competition including that Celtics super team.
Kobe doesnt get nearly enough credit for that.

you say this, and it is true that this is how they are thought of....

but it's weird that bynum was once considered (around this time, too) to be the best center in the league, behind only dwight...And when they had head to head matchups, bynum would destroy dwight (in a sense).

i think for whatever reason, the fans don't see the bynum-gasol-odom 7 foot triple header as the rare monster that i see it as. I always felt during the time like "doesn't everyone see we are the biggest, most talented team with those three?" and then you add kobe to it, bang!!

i can see the role players of the 2000 run to be seen as more valuable, but different times, different scenarios. I still might take the triple head 7foot combo over that all things being equal.

people talk about the twin towers...duncan robinson, hakeem and that punk, but bynum, gasol, odom is damn good...very rare indeed.

and the way they complimented each other was brilliant.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:32 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
Bynum and Odom were definitely role players. That 2 peat was truly a testimony to Kobe's greatness because overall those teams he brought to 3 straight finals and 2 championships were not "that good" compared to some historic teams yet they faced some very fierce competition including that Celtics super team.
Kobe doesnt get nearly enough credit for that.

you say this, and it is true that this is how they are thought of....

but it's weird that bynum was once considered (around this time, too) to be the best center in the league, behind only dwight...And when they had head to head matchups, bynum would destroy dwight (in a sense).

i think for whatever reason, the fans don't see the bynum-gasol-odom 7 foot triple header as the rare monster that i see it as. I always felt during the time like "doesn't everyone see we are the biggest, most talented team with those three?" and then you add kobe to it, bang!!

i can see the role players of the 2000 run to be seen as more valuable, but different times, different scenarios. I still might take the triple head 7foot combo over that all things being equal.

people talk about the twin towers...duncan robinson, hakeem and that punk, but bynum, gasol, odom is damn good...very rare indeed.

and the way they complimented each other was brilliant.


Bynum/Pau didn't really fit together IMO. The best lineup was always Pau and Odom.
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audioaxes
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:44 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
Bynum and Odom were definitely role players. That 2 peat was truly a testimony to Kobe's greatness because overall those teams he brought to 3 straight finals and 2 championships were not "that good" compared to some historic teams yet they faced some very fierce competition including that Celtics super team.
Kobe doesnt get nearly enough credit for that.


I think those two teams actually had a really easy path to the championship relative to most other teams.

2009:

8th seed Jazz
Taken to seven games by Rockets without McGrady and Yao
Carmelo/Billups Nuggets
Dwight-led Magic with Turkiglu as the second best player

2010:
OKC
Jazz for the third straight year
Suns with an old Nash and no Marion or D'Antoni
Celtics with post-injury KG (so not the same player)

those Western conference teams were no slouch compared to the cake walks many championship teams, especially from those that came out the East. And while that 2010 Celtics team was past its peak that could have went toe to toe with many championship teams of the era. And KG's decline was countered atleast partially by Rondo's rise.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:12 pm    Post subject:

The 2010 role players seemed better at the time than they actually are in hindsight. It's a testament to how great the trio of Kobe, Pau, and LO were that we pulled off two rings with that core. Of course, gotta say that Ariza and Artest stepped up in each of their respective playoff runs, and Fish came up big in key moments during both Finals. But outside of that, yikes. Bynum did what he could, but he was basically an injured, part-time player by the time both of those postseasons rolled around.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:15 pm    Post subject:

audioaxes wrote:
Bynum and Odom were definitely role players. That 2 peat was truly a testimony to Kobe's greatness because overall those teams he brought to 3 straight finals and 2 championships were not "that good" compared to some historic teams yet they faced some very fierce competition including that Celtics super team.
Kobe doesnt get nearly enough credit for that.


Odom was a beast, though. I guess you could technically call him a role player based on numbers, but he had two-way impact that went beyond that, as well as just the overall synergy he brought to our best lineup combos. Draymond-like (not a direct comparison, just impact wise).
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