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Sago
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:47 pm    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
MJST wrote:
Let's see who the next person they hire for analytics is.

Still waiting for you to justify that absurd hot take of yours that Magic is the FO equivalent of Byron when it comes to analytics. Let's hear it.

Any day now...


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legend825
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:00 am    Post subject:

Magic also said they’ll hire a full time shooting coach and we’ve heard nothing since. It’s been 6-7 months since he made those comments.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:44 am    Post subject:

One thing I will say about all of our misfits is they are older now, and pretty much all of them in their younger days were considered really good prospects.

Obvious behavior issues early? Really only Beasley has gotten himself into trouble over marijuana. Rondo had his bouts with Doc, but I can see that being one of those "Rondo you need to man up" and Rondo being younger then his counterparts (Allen, KG, Pierce). I really can't be mad at the kid.

Never really heard a coach say anything negative about Lance in a serious context? It was reported Indiana offered him more money and Lance turned them down. If that is not a good character sign I don't know what it is? He took less money to play with Lbj and the Lakers!

IMO, Lance Stephenson was better defensively then Klay Thompson last season. I thought Klay fell off a bit. You know who was decent when he played? Steph, Steph was decent defensively imo. And Lance was just as good imo. And Lance played all 82 games. Why would a coach play a guy all 82 games if he was that bad? And traditionally Nate's teams make the playoffs, he is a decent coach.

McGee , Shaqtin A Fool

Nah seriously I think he learned alot from playing with the Warriors.

Atleast Lebron has won a chip with Beasley on his team.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:24 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
RYZ wrote:

Basketball, on the other hand (as well as hockey, football, soccer, et al... all the sports which are effectively a variation on the same game ie. getting an object from one side of the playing surface to the other and scoring it with it once you get there) is a genuine team sport, and as such is truly a game of interdependence.



That is a value of analytics, quantifying those interactions. I see more value in analytics by lineup rather than individual players, if one lineup has a higher offensive efficiency then I want them on the floor when we need to score the ball. Personally I find individual analytics are mainly useful in discussions and contract negotiations.


Indeed, which is why I said...
Quote:
Until then, when it comes to individual players (as opposed to bits we may be able to glean about units of players...

It is a distinctly different goal than that pursued by the baseball guys, however. Yet newly minted stats devotees insist on attempting to transpose the baseball model upon basketball -- simply not applicable, in my estimation -- and then deride everyone who doesn't fall in line with the new orthodoxy as rubes.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:58 am    Post subject:

RYZ wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
RYZ wrote:

Basketball, on the other hand (as well as hockey, football, soccer, et al... all the sports which are effectively a variation on the same game ie. getting an object from one side of the playing surface to the other and scoring it with it once you get there) is a genuine team sport, and as such is truly a game of interdependence.



That is a value of analytics, quantifying those interactions. I see more value in analytics by lineup rather than individual players, if one lineup has a higher offensive efficiency then I want them on the floor when we need to score the ball. Personally I find individual analytics are mainly useful in discussions and contract negotiations.


Indeed, which is why I said...
Quote:
Until then, when it comes to individual players (as opposed to bits we may be able to glean about units of players...

It is a distinctly different goal than that pursued by the baseball guys, however. Yet newly minted stats devotees insist on attempting to transpose the baseball model upon basketball -- simply not applicable, in my estimation -- and then deride everyone who doesn't fall in line with the new orthodoxy as rubes.


I'd like to think the folks actually hired by teams realize the difference between the use of analytics in baseball which, which involving quite a few variables is not as fluid or chaotic (mathematically) as in basketball (or other team sports where minute movements of a player can have a large impact the overall system).

There is some insight cleaned from chaos theory when looking at advanced metrics in basketball (or perhaps even more in hockey). Very small changes in initial data (say you round a number at the 100th instead of at the 1000th), can have a significant impact on later calculations because of the wide number of variables and fluid/interdependent systems. It is why, despite all the effort and math and data, meteorologists still get the weather wrong. I mean, they probably get things close to right most of the time. But it is not an exact science because the systems are too fluid.

Still, if properly used, they can offer very valuable insights into trends, strengths and weaknesses and how a player generally fits into certain systems under circumstances.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:12 am    Post subject:

The Lakers don't seem to have a section on their website that lists front office executives. It seems like the most up-to-date listing is in their 2017-18 media guide and that was likely put out right before their regular season. The Lakers could have hired on or more analytics guys since then and unless they came from another NBA team the fans or media wouldn't necessarily know about it.

From doing a simple google/linkedin search, I did find that they hired Philip Chang in December of 2017. His title is Manager, Basketball Analytics. Before being hired by the Lakers, he was a Senior Specialist in the NBA league office's Basketball Strategy and Analytics Group. Linkedin lets you view one profile and then asks for a password after that so I couldn't determine if the Lakers have hired anyone else.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject:

eagles nut wrote:
The Lakers don't seem to have a section on their website that lists front office executives. It seems like the most up-to-date listing is in their 2017-18 media guide and that was likely put out right before their regular season. The Lakers could have hired on or more analytics guys since then and unless they came from another NBA team the fans or media wouldn't necessarily know about it.

From doing a simple google/linkedin search, I did find that they hired Philip Chang in December of 2017. His title is Manager, Basketball Analytics. Before being hired by the Lakers, he was a Senior Specialist in the NBA league office's Basketball Strategy and Analytics Group. Linkedin lets you view one profile and then asks for a password after that so I couldn't determine if the Lakers have hired anyone else.


Princeton Sports Analytics
https://princetonsportsanalytics.com/tag/philip-chang/
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AFireInside619
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:49 am    Post subject:

32 wrote:
eagles nut wrote:
The Lakers don't seem to have a section on their website that lists front office executives. It seems like the most up-to-date listing is in their 2017-18 media guide and that was likely put out right before their regular season. The Lakers could have hired on or more analytics guys since then and unless they came from another NBA team the fans or media wouldn't necessarily know about it.

From doing a simple google/linkedin search, I did find that they hired Philip Chang in December of 2017. His title is Manager, Basketball Analytics. Before being hired by the Lakers, he was a Senior Specialist in the NBA league office's Basketball Strategy and Analytics Group. Linkedin lets you view one profile and then asks for a password after that so I couldn't determine if the Lakers have hired anyone else.


Princeton Sports Analytics
https://princetonsportsanalytics.com/tag/philip-chang/


Great find LG. I’m sure people will still crap on this saying stuff like, “Well, Princeton isn’t MIT.”

Side Note. Will Morey be invited back to Sloan Conference if he picks up Melo?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:10 am    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
32 wrote:
eagles nut wrote:
The Lakers don't seem to have a section on their website that lists front office executives. It seems like the most up-to-date listing is in their 2017-18 media guide and that was likely put out right before their regular season. The Lakers could have hired on or more analytics guys since then and unless they came from another NBA team the fans or media wouldn't necessarily know about it.

From doing a simple google/linkedin search, I did find that they hired Philip Chang in December of 2017. His title is Manager, Basketball Analytics. Before being hired by the Lakers, he was a Senior Specialist in the NBA league office's Basketball Strategy and Analytics Group. Linkedin lets you view one profile and then asks for a password after that so I couldn't determine if the Lakers have hired anyone else.


Princeton Sports Analytics
https://princetonsportsanalytics.com/tag/philip-chang/


Great find LG. I’m sure people will still crap on this saying stuff like, “Well, Princeton isn’t MIT.”

Side Note. Will Morey be invited back to Sloan Conference if he picks up Melo?


Keep in mind that conference was 5 years ago in 2013. I was just trying to find information about Phillip Chang.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:35 am    Post subject:

32 wrote:
eagles nut wrote:
The Lakers don't seem to have a section on their website that lists front office executives. It seems like the most up-to-date listing is in their 2017-18 media guide and that was likely put out right before their regular season. The Lakers could have hired on or more analytics guys since then and unless they came from another NBA team the fans or media wouldn't necessarily know about it.

From doing a simple google/linkedin search, I did find that they hired Philip Chang in December of 2017. His title is Manager, Basketball Analytics. Before being hired by the Lakers, he was a Senior Specialist in the NBA league office's Basketball Strategy and Analytics Group. Linkedin lets you view one profile and then asks for a password after that so I couldn't determine if the Lakers have hired anyone else.


Princeton Sports Analytics
https://princetonsportsanalytics.com/tag/philip-chang/


Interesting that he thinks that the application of advanced stats and how they have changed player/team construction as fluff. I realize that I am near the bottom tier when it comes to analytics but isn’t that the main reason for using them?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:11 pm    Post subject:

RYZ wrote:
Dumhead wrote:
As an aside... I think analytics has a useful place in basketball when applied well. However, I think it is not as useful as it is in baseball where individual plays and interactions are more easily isolated, allowing the data from to be more accurate and useful when analyzed in sum.


I've contended this for a long time. The entire essence of the statistics revolution in baseball was to uncover previously undervalued skills which had historically been improperly quantified by the "eye test", and thus appeared counterintuitive by the traditional criteria of baseball abilities measurement.

But outside of perhaps relay throws, double plays, and an attempt to throw out a base stealer (including how well the pitcher holds him on and the efficiency of his delivery to the plate), there is very little about baseball that is actually a "team" sport. It is rather a series of 1 v. 1 matchups: pitcher v. hitter; hitter v. fielder; fielder v. base runner. Consequently, it is fairly straightforward to measure an individual's impact upon a game.

Basketball, on the other hand (as well as hockey, football, soccer, et al... all the sports which are effectively a variation on the same game ie. getting an object from one side of the playing surface to the other and scoring it with it once you get there) is a genuine team sport, and as such is truly a game of interdependence.

From this it follows that it is much harder statistically to assign credit and blame to individual players on individual plays in basketball than it is in baseball. When a shortstop throws errantly to first base, he will rightly be assessed the error, but when a point guard makes a pass that perhaps should've been handled cleanly by his teammate (perhaps the teammate wasn't even in the right place), he will often wrongly be tagged with a turnover. If a batter strikes out, it wasn't the fault of his teammate leading off of first base, but if a guy shoots an airball from three, might it have been partially attributable to a pass that didn't arrive at his shooting pocket, thereby not allowing him to get it off in rhythm, or perhaps it arrived late, allowing a closing out defender to get just a hair more of his hand in the shooter's face? Maybe he was coming off a screen before the catch, but his teammate set a poor pick, thus enabling the defender to make the shot more difficult. And what of a player who appears to have subpar rebounding numbers, but his steady boxing out allows for his teammates to accumulate them?

It's not that these factors are unquantifiable, it's that, thus far at least, they are still relatively easier to measure with the eye, for people who have an eye. At one point perhaps, the great counterintuitive stat will come along to demonstrate for us why we should value, for instance, a point guard's ability to get to the basket even if he bricks the majority of his layups, because it turns out his teammates clean up the offensive boards on 80% of his misses and put them back at a 75% clip, and the math somehow tells us that this is more valuable than another pg's ability to pull up off of the dribble and hit consistently from 23 feet. That would be the big "on base plus slugging percentage from some squatty unathletic guy is more valuable than a stud athlete with a high batting average" moment for basketball.

Until then, when it comes to individual players (as opposed to bits we may be able to glean about units of players, and maybe predicting how a prospective addition to a team might fit in -- which is where I think the real value may currently be in advanced bball analysis), while they may perhaps help explicate for us what we less precisely, if very intuitively understand with our eyes, basketball analytics are largely telling us what we already know.

You did a great job at summing up perfectly what I've been unable to express for a while now. There are so many little things throughout a full game that simply can't be measured, especially when it comes to an individual's decision making skills. Numbers can't really tell you how well a guy closes out or rotates on defense, but may be able to give you a general idea that your team needs to improve their 3pt defensive percentage.

Even with more advanced stats that can narrow down particular scenarios, it still isn't nearly enough to account for everything else that one gets by paying close attention to game film. The end result is many of the advanced stats simply allowing those who study film to say "yeah that makes sense, I knew that from watching film but at least now its quantifiable". So the numbers should supplement the film analysis, not the other way around.

A great example of this is GT, who breaks down the film beautifully while still using numbers to back up his analysis that are available to all of us with the naked eye.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:49 pm    Post subject:

-snippety snip-
Judah wrote:

No it isn't. What benefit is there in rushing to a conclusion? If we're actually going to be fair and go off of what they've actually said and done as it pertains to analytics, this is what we have:

Quote:
According to new Lakers advisor Magic Johnson during an appearance on ESPN’s Stephen A. Smith’s radio show, the reason for the team’s current position is even simpler.

“To me, the Lakers are still five, six years in the past,” Johnson said, before offering a few solutions.

“We gotta move up to what basketball is. Spread game. Shooters. Also the analytics,” Johnson continued. “The thinking of what franchises are doing today, because we’re not there yet. We’re way behind these [other] franchises.”


https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2017/2/15/14631278/la-lakers-analytics-kobe-bryant-magic-johnson-robert-horry

Quote:
Magic Johnson and Rob Pelinka are looking to fill as many as seven new positions to beef up the analytics department.

ESPN’s Baxter Holmes reported Thursday that Yuju Lee, director of analytics stepped down after four years with the team. Per the source, Lee was asked to go from director of analytics to a manager of the team of analysts the Lakers are attempting to put together.

When Johnson was first hired, he spoke at length about the need to include analytics in the franchise’s thinking. This appears to be him taking steps to fulfill that promise.


https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2017/5/6/15562570/la-lakers-rumors-report-news-analytics-department-magic-johnson-rob-pelinka-yuju-lee

Show me in the above articles where anything is said that actually validates the notion that Magic’s view of analytics is anything close to Byron's. How is it rational to assume that they've abandoned taking analytics this seriously in a year, all because they parted ways with the last person they hired and haven't found a replacement yet? That's ridiculous. Not knowing what's going on doesn't make it fair game to fill in the blanks on why they parted ways with the last person and where they're going from here. How do you know that the reason they parted ways with the last person wasn't because they were dissatisfied with the job he did, and that the reason they haven't hired a replacement yet is because they're approaching it diligently and methodically to make sure that the replacement is the right person for the job and will be there long term?

We don't know what they're doing. And again, not knowing doesn't automatically make it fair for us to fill in the blanks with presumptive, negative conclusions and then have the audacity to turn around and criticize them for stuff that we completely made up on our own. Stop lumping Magic in with Byron without reasonable evidence, especially when the evidence that's actually out there eviscerates that premise.


Saying stuff is neat. Yes, I appreciate that Magic said hip and happening things about analytics. Like someone said earlier, Magic also said stuff about hiring a shooting coach. All good stuff to say.

I just want to know who's doing the job and find it questionable there's no update when there's been updates with the position in the past... especially when there were a few frankly embarrassing reports about how behind the Lakers were in analytics a few years back. So who's the 'Director' during the draft process, free agency, summer league... It's a field I actually feel a bit justified in monitoring closely with the Lakers considering their history.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:52 pm    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
32 wrote:
eagles nut wrote:
The Lakers don't seem to have a section on their website that lists front office executives. It seems like the most up-to-date listing is in their 2017-18 media guide and that was likely put out right before their regular season. The Lakers could have hired on or more analytics guys since then and unless they came from another NBA team the fans or media wouldn't necessarily know about it.

From doing a simple google/linkedin search, I did find that they hired Philip Chang in December of 2017. His title is Manager, Basketball Analytics. Before being hired by the Lakers, he was a Senior Specialist in the NBA league office's Basketball Strategy and Analytics Group. Linkedin lets you view one profile and then asks for a password after that so I couldn't determine if the Lakers have hired anyone else.


Princeton Sports Analytics
https://princetonsportsanalytics.com/tag/philip-chang/


Great find LG. I’m sure people will still crap on this saying stuff like, “Well, Princeton isn’t MIT.”

Side Note. Will Morey be invited back to Sloan Conference if he picks up Melo?


Princeton's fine.

I actually think there's no better organization that could revive Melo's career than the Rockets. They'll know exactly how to use him and make him valuable I bet. But, Melo's gotta be willing to explore a different role.

Also great find, guys.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:55 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
32 wrote:
eagles nut wrote:
The Lakers don't seem to have a section on their website that lists front office executives. It seems like the most up-to-date listing is in their 2017-18 media guide and that was likely put out right before their regular season. The Lakers could have hired on or more analytics guys since then and unless they came from another NBA team the fans or media wouldn't necessarily know about it.

From doing a simple google/linkedin search, I did find that they hired Philip Chang in December of 2017. His title is Manager, Basketball Analytics. Before being hired by the Lakers, he was a Senior Specialist in the NBA league office's Basketball Strategy and Analytics Group. Linkedin lets you view one profile and then asks for a password after that so I couldn't determine if the Lakers have hired anyone else.


Princeton Sports Analytics
https://princetonsportsanalytics.com/tag/philip-chang/


Interesting that he thinks that the application of advanced stats and how they have changed player/team construction as fluff. I realize that I am near the bottom tier when it comes to analytics but isn’t that the main reason for using them?


Where does he say that it's fluff?
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