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KobeIsTheOne
Star Player
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1476
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 Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| kobeandgary wrote: | | LBJ23 wrote: | | kobeandgary wrote: | | LBJ23 wrote: | | Kobe is an all time Great. He isn't a top 5 player. Lebron is a top 5 player, and still has a chance to be number 1. I love Kobe, but he wasn't top 5 all time. |
Disagree, Kobe is the greatest basketball player of all time. Jordan probably has potentially the best modern legacy. |
It's nice to have an opinion, but nothing points to Kobe being better than MJ, or even a top 5 player. What do you base it on? |
Pure skill. |
(nods head) 
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"I'm like Neo out this m----- f-----," Bryant said."
http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-130129/daily-dime
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/kobe-bryant-thinks-neo-matrix-could-ve-best-174850191--nba.html |
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PHILosophize
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2012
Posts: 10758
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| KobeIsTheOne wrote: | | LBJ23 wrote: | | Kobe is an all time Great. He isn't a top 5 player. Lebron is a top 5 player, and still has a chance to be number 1. I love Kobe, but he wasn't top 5 all time. |
Ok, "LBJ23". |
I don't think you get to do that 
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KobeIsTheOne
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CamReddish
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Posts: 7854
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:42 am Post subject: |
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You guys just pick and choose eye test and stats or are you guys going to post stats and advanced stats?
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george w kush
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Joined: 05 Jun 2009
Posts: 1169
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| KobeIsTheOne wrote: | | LBJ23 wrote: | | Kobe is an all time Great. He isn't a top 5 player. Lebron is a top 5 player, and still has a chance to be number 1. I love Kobe, but he wasn't top 5 all time. |
But it's hard to argue he has the same champion's mentality when compared to guys like Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird, etc... |
3 of Kobe's rings came by playing with Shaq, the 3 time NBA Finals MVP. Where was this championship mentality when he was crying to management about wanting to get traded to the Bulls because he had garbage teammates? Seems more like a quitters mentality to me. It's nice and all to have a 'championship' like mentality when you have guys that can save your butt in a game 7 like Pau and Artest did against the Celtics but when you don't have these guys around and instead have the Smush Parkers/Kwame Browns of the world like Lebron had early in his career he won't 'find a way to win', instead he'll complain about it to management and advocate to have players traded or get himself traded.
BTW guys like Magic, Bird and Kobe has the benefit have having hall of famers surrounding them for most of their careers. How many rings would these guys have if they had to play with guys like Mo Williams, JR Smith and Larry Hughes for most of their careers? Probably not as many as they do now.
Last edited by george w kush on Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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nickuku
Star Player
Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 7844
Location: Orange County
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Kobe is my favorite player by far and by any objective measure he isn't top 5. Personally for me he falls in the 7-10 range. He may be in YOUR top 5 and that's fine but outside of Laker fandom I doubt you'll find many knowledgeable fans who will say otherwise. The extreme views on Kobe from both sides are getting indefensible. 
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CamReddish
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Posts: 7854
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| nickuku wrote: | | Kobe is my favorite player by far and by any objective measure he isn't top 5. Personally for me he falls in the 7-10 range. He may be in YOUR top 5 and that's fine but outside of Laker fandom I doubt you'll find many knowledgeable fans who will say otherwise. The extreme views on Kobe from both sides are getting indefensible. |
I agree with this.
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KobeIsTheOne
Star Player
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1476
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| nickuku wrote: | | Kobe is my favorite player by far and by any objective measure he isn't top 5. Personally for me he falls in the 7-10 range. He may be in YOUR top 5 and that's fine but outside of Laker fandom I doubt you'll find many knowledgeable fans who will say otherwise. The extreme views on Kobe from both sides are getting indefensible. |
He's the most skilled player in the history of the game.
Whatever other criteria you want to throw on top of that is based largely, if not entirely, on context.
To me, being the most skilled player ever justifies his position, objectively, at the top, be it 1,2,3, 4 or 5, but to rank any lower than that just seems spiteful or ignorant.
Many knowledgable fans, players, and coaches would 100% agree with that assessment, but because we can never see these guys go head to head, a true "winning argument" can and will never be had. For what it's worth, the one guy who coached both KB and MJ said that there are "many things" that Kobe did better than MJ, but MJ's hands were something physically that gave MJ the kind of advantage Kobe didn't have.
From a mental toughness standpoint, Kobe and MJ both dwarf LBJ. That should be evident among 'many knowledgeable fans".
_________________
"I'm like Neo out this m----- f-----," Bryant said."
http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-130129/daily-dime
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/kobe-bryant-thinks-neo-matrix-could-ve-best-174850191--nba.html |
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KobeIsTheOne
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Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1476
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| george w kush wrote: | | KobeIsTheOne wrote: | | LBJ23 wrote: | | Kobe is an all time Great. He isn't a top 5 player. Lebron is a top 5 player, and still has a chance to be number 1. I love Kobe, but he wasn't top 5 all time. |
But it's hard to argue he has the same champion's mentality when compared to guys like Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird, etc... |
3 of Kobe's rings came by playing with Shaq, the 3 time NBA Finals MVP. Where was this championship mentality when he was crying to management about wanting to get traded to the Bulls because he had garbage teammates? Seems more like a quitters mentality to me. It's nice and all to have a 'championship' like mentality when you have guys that can save your butt in a game 7 like Pau and Artest did against the Celtics but when you don't have these guys around and instead have the Smush Parkers/Kwame Browns of the world like Lebron had early in his career he won't 'find a way to win', instead he'll complain about it to management and advocate to have players traded or get himself traded.
BTW guys like Magic, Bird and Kobe has the benefit have having hall of famers surrounding them for most of their careers. How many rings would these guys have if they had to play with guys like Mo Williams, JR Smith and Larry Hughes for most of their careers? Probably not as many as they do now. |
LBJ has never won a ring with FEWER than TWO all star teammates.
Kobe has never won a ring with MORE than ONE.
_________________
"I'm like Neo out this m----- f-----," Bryant said."
http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-130129/daily-dime
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/kobe-bryant-thinks-neo-matrix-could-ve-best-174850191--nba.html |
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32
Retired Number
Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 73062
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:05 am Post subject: |
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Maybe this should be turned into a Lebron P&M thread. It appears we are going to need one this year.
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Nobody in the NBA can touch the Laker brand, which, like the uniform color, is pure gold. |
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SuperboyReformed
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:05 am Post subject: |
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i love how after 2010, kobe was clearly a top 5 player.
Then there was veto.
THen Lebron won a couple and lost a bunch.
THe warriors won a few with all the all stars.
NOw, it is debateable that kobe is top 5 or even 10? makes no sense.
so it's like in people's minds, because of what lebron and the warriors did from 2013 on, this now makes kobe drop out of top 5. it's ridiculous.
We're going to soon see the difference in kobe and lebron here. |
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CamReddish
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Posts: 7854
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| KobeIsTheOne wrote: | | nickuku wrote: | | Kobe is my favorite player by far and by any objective measure he isn't top 5. Personally for me he falls in the 7-10 range. He may be in YOUR top 5 and that's fine but outside of Laker fandom I doubt you'll find many knowledgeable fans who will say otherwise. The extreme views on Kobe from both sides are getting indefensible. |
He's the most skilled player in the history of the game.
Whatever other criteria you want to throw on top of that is based largely, if not entirely, on context.
To me, being the most skilled player ever justifies his position, objectively, at the top, be it 1,2,3, 4 or 5, but to rank any lower than that just seems spiteful or ignorant.
Many knowledgable fans, players, and coaches would 100% agree with that assessment, but because we can never see these guys go head to head, a true "winning argument" can and will never be had. For what it's worth, the one guy who coached both KB and MJ said that there are "many things" that Kobe did better than MJ, but MJ's hands were something physically that gave MJ the kind of advantage Kobe didn't have.
From a mental toughness standpoint, Kobe and MJ both dwarf LBJ. That should be evident among 'many knowledgeable fans". |
How could you be the most skilled if you cant hit shots at a better % than some if the greats, or not be able to assist better than some of the greats, or not rebound better than some of the greats. What are these skills you speak of?
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:21 am Post subject: |
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^Greater diversity of moves vs refinement. Simple.
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CamReddish
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Posts: 7854
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| KobeIsTheOne wrote: | | george w kush wrote: | | KobeIsTheOne wrote: | | LBJ23 wrote: | | Kobe is an all time Great. He isn't a top 5 player. Lebron is a top 5 player, and still has a chance to be number 1. I love Kobe, but he wasn't top 5 all time. |
But it's hard to argue he has the same champion's mentality when compared to guys like Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird, etc... |
3 of Kobe's rings came by playing with Shaq, the 3 time NBA Finals MVP. Where was this championship mentality when he was crying to management about wanting to get traded to the Bulls because he had garbage teammates? Seems more like a quitters mentality to me. It's nice and all to have a 'championship' like mentality when you have guys that can save your butt in a game 7 like Pau and Artest did against the Celtics but when you don't have these guys around and instead have the Smush Parkers/Kwame Browns of the world like Lebron had early in his career he won't 'find a way to win', instead he'll complain about it to management and advocate to have players traded or get himself traded.
BTW guys like Magic, Bird and Kobe has the benefit have having hall of famers surrounding them for most of their careers. How many rings would these guys have if they had to play with guys like Mo Williams, JR Smith and Larry Hughes for most of their careers? Probably not as many as they do now. |
LBJ has never won a ring with FEWER than TWO all star teammates.
Kobe has never won a ring with MORE than ONE. |
Lebron never had a prime MVP Shaq. Lebron wins the same or more championship than Kobe if he had the same teams as Kobe. Just compare the finals stats of the 2. Lebrons are way better and he played in the Finals against those west teams while Kobe played against weak east teams outside of the Celtics. Kobes finals stats stink outside of maybe the finals against Orlando
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CamReddish
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Posts: 7854
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | ^Greater diversity of moves vs refinement. Simple. |
Ok, but the ball still needs to go into the hoop at a higher %. Passing and rebounding are not a skill?
Shooting a high %, passing, and rebounding are better skills to have than more moves and refinement
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ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| kobeandgary wrote: | | LBJ23 wrote: | | kobeandgary wrote: | | LBJ23 wrote: | | Kobe is an all time Great. He isn't a top 5 player. Lebron is a top 5 player, and still has a chance to be number 1. I love Kobe, but he wasn't top 5 all time. |
Disagree, Kobe is the greatest basketball player of all time. Jordan probably has potentially the best modern legacy. |
It's nice to have an opinion, but nothing points to Kobe being better than MJ, or even a top 5 player. What do you base it on? |
To me it's odd that somebody that played in a weaker conference, with more help, chased rings, and still had less success than Kobe... is being placed above Kobe by you. |
If it's so ludicrous an idea, just ignore it man. Just like if someone were to say that Smush Parker > Kobe Bryant, like, why waste time with that if it's so ridiculous. |
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moonriver24
Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 15265
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:59 am Post subject: |
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HAD Kobe done what Bron has been doing, jumping ships to chase rings, he would have easily gotten 8 rings easily, by starting to join the Spurs when he first became a free agent. And then jumping ship to Mavericks and then the Suns.
Lucky for Lakers, he stayed as a lifetime Laker.
Welcome Lebron.
I hope this would have shut down all the clowns.
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Well, this thread got hijacked. We’re back to the same old Kobe vs. Lebron all-time ranking argument. We need a Kush vs. Moonriver cage match. |
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Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| LBJ23 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | ^Greater diversity of moves vs refinement. Simple. |
Ok, but the ball still needs to go into the hoop at a higher %. Passing and rebounding are not a skill?
Shooting a high %, passing, and rebounding are better skills to have than more moves and refinement |
Wait, before I even start this because I don't care much for a LeBron and Kobe argument.
Are you a LeBron guy or a Laker guy?
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Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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CamReddish
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Posts: 7854
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | LBJ23 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | ^Greater diversity of moves vs refinement. Simple. |
Ok, but the ball still needs to go into the hoop at a higher %. Passing and rebounding are not a skill?
Shooting a high %, passing, and rebounding are better skills to have than more moves and refinement |
Wait, before I even start this because I don't care much for a LeBron and Kobe argument.
Are you a LeBron guy or a Laker guy? |
Laker. Kobe is my favorite player. But I can see who the better overall player is and it isn't really close.
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Pau Gasol's Beard
Star Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2009
Posts: 1410
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| You're a "Kobe Stan" who's not a real Laker fan. /thread |
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Mamba Mentality
Star Player
Joined: 04 May 2017
Posts: 3078
Location: The Left Coast
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| george w kush wrote: | | KobeIsTheOne wrote: | | LBJ23 wrote: | | Kobe is an all time Great. He isn't a top 5 player. Lebron is a top 5 player, and still has a chance to be number 1. I love Kobe, but he wasn't top 5 all time. |
But it's hard to argue he has the same champion's mentality when compared to guys like Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird, etc... |
3 of Kobe's rings came by playing with Shaq, the 3 time NBA Finals MVP. Where was this championship mentality when he was crying to management about wanting to get traded to the Bulls because he had garbage teammates? Seems more like a quitters mentality to me. It's nice and all to have a 'championship' like mentality when you have guys that can save your butt in a game 7 like Pau and Artest did against the Celtics but when you don't have these guys around and instead have the Smush Parkers/Kwame Browns of the world like Lebron had early in his career he won't 'find a way to win', instead he'll complain about it to management and advocate to have players traded or get himself traded.
BTW guys like Magic, Bird and Kobe has the benefit have having hall of famers surrounding them for most of their careers. How many rings would these guys have if they had to play with guys like Mo Williams, JR Smith and Larry Hughes for most of their careers? Probably not as many as they do now. |
Not fair. You're not telling the whole story. There're identical counters to everything just mentioned. Why do you think LeBron left CLE in 2010? For the same exact reason Kobe wanted a trade in 2007. Their respective FOs were not doing anything to improve the roster. And please don't compare the 06 Lakers squad to the 07 LeBron squad that he dragged to the finals. That CLE was better and they had the benefit of playing in the East. As for Pau and Artest saving the Lakers in game 7, LeBron had a championship that was saved by Ray Allen after LeBron kept choking in crunch time. Let's not even talk about 2011 finals. LeBron didn't play with Larry Hughes, Mo Williams, and JR Smith for most of his career. And that's because LeBron never stays with one franchise for a rebuild. |
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CamReddish
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Posts: 7854
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Mamba Mentality wrote: | | george w kush wrote: | | KobeIsTheOne wrote: | | LBJ23 wrote: | | Kobe is an all time Great. He isn't a top 5 player. Lebron is a top 5 player, and still has a chance to be number 1. I love Kobe, but he wasn't top 5 all time. |
But it's hard to argue he has the same champion's mentality when compared to guys like Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird, etc... |
3 of Kobe's rings came by playing with Shaq, the 3 time NBA Finals MVP. Where was this championship mentality when he was crying to management about wanting to get traded to the Bulls because he had garbage teammates? Seems more like a quitters mentality to me. It's nice and all to have a 'championship' like mentality when you have guys that can save your butt in a game 7 like Pau and Artest did against the Celtics but when you don't have these guys around and instead have the Smush Parkers/Kwame Browns of the world like Lebron had early in his career he won't 'find a way to win', instead he'll complain about it to management and advocate to have players traded or get himself traded.
BTW guys like Magic, Bird and Kobe has the benefit have having hall of famers surrounding them for most of their careers. How many rings would these guys have if they had to play with guys like Mo Williams, JR Smith and Larry Hughes for most of their careers? Probably not as many as they do now. |
Not fair. You're not telling the whole story. There're identical counters to everything just mentioned. Why do you think LeBron left CLE in 2010? For the same exact reason Kobe wanted a trade in 2007. Their respective FOs were not doing anything to improve the roster. And please don't compare the 06 Lakers squad to the 07 LeBron squad that he dragged to the finals. That CLE was better and they had the benefit of playing in the East. As for Pau and Artest saving the Lakers in game 7, LeBron had a championship that was saved by Ray Allen after LeBron kept choking in crunch time. Let's not even talk about 2011 finals. LeBron didn't play with Larry Hughes, Mo Williams, and JR Smith for most of his career. And that's because LeBron never stays with one franchise for a rebuild. |
Lebron was drafted into a rebuild. Kobe was drafted on a team that was almost championship ready.
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LandsbergerRules
Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 11197
Location: The Other Perspective
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| 32 wrote: | | Maybe this should be turned into a Lebron P&M thread. It appears we are going to need one this year. |
That's a good idea. 
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"Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:48 am Post subject: |
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It's going to be a very long 3-4 years for some in LG.
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