I'm a lifelong Laker fan who's not a fan of signing LeBron
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LakerSanity
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:39 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Well, this thread got hijacked. We’re back to the same old Kobe vs. Lebron all-time ranking argument. We need a Kush vs. Moonriver cage match.


Given that there is no downside to getting Lebron (especially in light of the lack of other FAs who have signed with us over the past 5 years), it would seem that this thread was always about Lebron v. Kobe (whether explicitly said or implicitly said).
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moonriver24
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:43 pm    Post subject:

Durant seldom gets criticized for joining the Warriors because someone has been doing it. I do believe Durant would have been able to win it all had he stayed with OKC. The Warriors will not be the same without KD. He has been saving Curry many times during the playoffs.
If he wants out of Warriors, he will likely team up with Anthony Davis and Randle and win some more.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:47 pm    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
Durant seldom gets criticized for joining the Warriors because someone has been doing it. I do believe Durant would have been able to win it all had he stayed with OKC. The Warriors will not be the same without KD. He has been saving Curry many times during the playoffs.
If he wants out of Warriors, he will likely team up with Anthony Davis and Randle and win some more.


1st of all Durant got criticized plenty.

2nd of all, if he went to NO it would be to team up with Davis, they would likely trade Randle or let him walk to make that happen. Randle would not play any roll in that.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:48 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:

Given that there is no downside to getting Lebron (especially in light of the lack of other FAs who have signed with us over the past 5 years), it would seem that this thread was always about Lebron v. Kobe (whether explicitly said or implicitly said).


Not at all, it's a perfectly normal opinion that signing Lebron won't work out. He has more miles than any other player in the NBA, and just got swept in the Finals.

It's going to be very hard to win a championship in the West, and now the Lakers are locked in for 4 years with him. We already got rid of Randle, and we could possibly get rid of other young assets (Lonzo trade rumors), and there's already rumblings that Luke could get fired for a more experienced coach, so there is always a downside.


Last edited by toksfale on Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:48 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Well, this thread got hijacked. We’re back to the same old Kobe vs. Lebron all-time ranking argument. We need a Kush vs. Moonriver cage match.


Given that there is no downside to getting Lebron (especially in light of the lack of other FAs who have signed with us over the past 5 years), it would seem that this thread was always about Lebron v. Kobe (whether explicitly said or implicitly said).


For some of them, yes. Heck, for a lot of them, yes. But there are also a lot of people who just don’t like Lebron due to the arrogance, the hype, the team switching, or whatever.

Anyway, I didn’t mean just the Kobe vs. Lebron argument. I meant the tired old arguments about who ranks higher on the all-time list. I thought the last couple threads on that subject had satisfied the periodic urge to fight that war. I guess not.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:55 pm    Post subject:

LBJ23 wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
Durant seldom gets criticized for joining the Warriors because someone has been doing it. I do believe Durant would have been able to win it all had he stayed with OKC. The Warriors will not be the same without KD. He has been saving Curry many times during the playoffs.
If he wants out of Warriors, he will likely team up with Anthony Davis and Randle and win some more.


1st of all Durant got criticized plenty.

2nd of all, if he went to NO it would be to team up with Davis, they would likely trade Randle or let him walk to make that happen. Randle would not play any roll in that.

But Durant basically did not play the conspiracy to play together.
Randle is a power forward. Durant small forward. Davis a center.
Think about that front court. Especially if Randle develops well.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:00 pm    Post subject:

toksfale wrote:
It's going to be very hard to win a championship in the West, and now the Lakers are locked in for 4 years with him. We already got rid of Randle, and we could possibly get rid of other young assets (Lonzo trade rumors), and there's already rumblings that Luke could get fired for a more experienced coach, so there is always a downside.


….and please tell me or anyone a realistic alternative path to winning a title that is more certain/less risky than the one we are now? Keep in mind, we haven't actually lost anyone but Randle yet AND we still have a full max slot next summer. Ready... go.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:01 pm    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
LBJ23 wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
Durant seldom gets criticized for joining the Warriors because someone has been doing it. I do believe Durant would have been able to win it all had he stayed with OKC. The Warriors will not be the same without KD. He has been saving Curry many times during the playoffs.
If he wants out of Warriors, he will likely team up with Anthony Davis and Randle and win some more.


1st of all Durant got criticized plenty.

2nd of all, if he went to NO it would be to team up with Davis, they would likely trade Randle or let him walk to make that happen. Randle would not play any roll in that.

But Durant basically did not play the conspiracy to play together.
Randle is a power forward. Durant small forward. Davis a center.
Think about that front court. Especially if Randle develops well.


Think about the salary cap also
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Given that there is no downside to getting Lebron (especially in light of the lack of other FAs who have signed with us over the past 5 years), it would seem that this thread was always about Lebron v. Kobe (whether explicitly said or implicitly said).


For some of them, yes. Heck, for a lot of them, yes. But there are also a lot of people who just don’t like Lebron due to the arrogance, the hype, the team switching, or whatever.


I think that kind of opinion of Lebron, at its root, begins with Kobe. I'd be surprised to hear of a fan who hates that Lebron is on our team who isn't also a big Kobe fan. There is also a big difference between not being a Lebron fan and thinking signing Lebron was a mistake. You don't have to be a fan of his to recognize it was still the right move.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
You don't have to be a fan of his to recognize it was still the right move.


How can you say "it was the right move" when he hasn't even played a game? No one knows that yet. It could be very well turn out to be not a good move, odds are the Lakers aren't beating the Warriors anytime soon barring a miracle.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:06 pm    Post subject:

toksfale wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
You don't have to be a fan of his to recognize it was still the right move.


How can you say "it was the right move" when he hasn't even played a game? No one knows that yet. It could be very well turn out to be not a good move, odds are the Lakers aren't beating the Warriors anytime soon barring a miracle.


You have a better plan?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:08 pm    Post subject:

toksfale wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
You don't have to be a fan of his to recognize it was still the right move.


How can you say "it was the right move" when he hasn't even played a game? No one knows that yet. It could be very well turn out to be not a good move, odds are the Lakers aren't beating the Warriors anytime soon barring a miracle.


Again.... please suggest an alternative realistic path that was better than signing him. If you can't think of a better option (a realistic one, not just pipe in the sky) that implicitly means signing Lebron was the best option and, thus was the right move.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:08 pm    Post subject:

Beir32 wrote:

You have a better plan?


I would have probably done the same thing, but you can't say "it was the right move" before they've even played a game. We all got hyped for D12 / Nash, didn't win anything. We all got hyped for Payton / Malone, didn't win anything.

It's a real possibility Lebron doesn't win a title in LA, it's a real possibility Randle becomes a strong All-Star. In that situation we'd look at this like a mistake.

Quote:
Again.... please suggest an alternative realistic path that was better than signing him. If you can't think of a better option (a realistic one, not just pipe in the sky) that implicitly means signing Lebron was the best option and, thus was the right move.


There were plenty of other things they could have done, like signing Randle for dirt cheap. You can't say moves are "better" or "best" when no one has played a game. That's the whole point, there's a lot of uncertainty and I can't understand people treating Lebron like he's already won a title for LA.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:11 pm    Post subject:

toksfale wrote:
Beir32 wrote:

You have a better plan?


I would have probably done the same thing, but you can't say "it was the right move" before they've even played a game. We all got hyped for D12 / Nash, didn't win anything. We all got hyped for Payton / Malone, didn't win anything.


Jesus. And that my friends proves that this thread is not about whether the Lakers did the right thing, but is just about pissing on the fact we have Lebron (and, salt in the wound, he was our only option).
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:13 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
toksfale wrote:
Beir32 wrote:

You have a better plan?


I would have probably done the same thing, but you can't say "it was the right move" before they've even played a game. We all got hyped for D12 / Nash, didn't win anything. We all got hyped for Payton / Malone, didn't win anything.


Jesus. And that my friends proves that this thread is not about whether the Lakers did the right thing, but is just about pissing on the fact we have Lebron (and, salt in the wound, he was our only option).


You can't say the signing was "the right move" when we don't have any results. It could very well turn out to be the wrong move. And it wasn't the only option. The Lakers let Randle walk, that was another option. They were a 35-win team last year, could have probably improved to an 8-seed and kept all their youth.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject:

toksfale wrote:
a strong All-Star. In that situation we'd look at this like a mistake.

Quote:
Again.... please suggest an alternative realistic path that was better than signing him. If you can't think of a better option (a realistic one, not just pipe in the sky) that implicitly means signing Lebron was the best option and, thus was the right move.


There were plenty of other things they could have done, like signing Randle for dirt cheap. You can't say moves are "better" or "best" when no one has played a game. That's the whole point, there's a lot of uncertainty and I can't understand people treating Lebron like he's already won a title for LA.


Lebron didn't prevent the Lakers from signing Randle for "dirt cheap." Lebron had nothing to do with that. However, lets say we sign Randle for "dirt cheap" and don't sign Lebron, are we closer to a title? No. Are you relying then on punting cap space in hopes of signing two max free agents next summer (when that didn't even work this summer even though we had Lebron has a carrot)? That's not a better or more realistic plan.

The "right move" is the move, taking into account all available information at the time, is the one which objectively gives you the best chance of meeting your objective. Just because you ultimately fail and see why it didn't work in hindsight does not change the fact it was the "right move" at the time. Signing Lebron OBVIOUSLY was the best move the Lakers could make in the situation they are presently in regardless of whether it ultimately works out or not. 10 out of 10 GMs would have done the exact same thing. To argue otherwise shows nothing more than bias.

What this comes down to is simply that for whatever reason (**cough*** Kobe ***cough***), people just want to complain about Lebron.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:16 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:

Lebron didn't prevent the Lakers from signing Randle for "dirt cheap." Lebron had nothing to do with that. However, lets say we sign Randle for "dirt cheap" and don't sign Lebron, are we closer to a title? No.


It certainly played a role, because Lebron meant Randle's role would be diminished, and it made both sides want to walk.

Being "closer to a title" doesn't count for anything, you have to win titles. Lebron has a ton of mileage, just got swept in the Finals, and now you're locked in with him for the next 4 years with pressure to move assets to "win now". It could very well turn out that he doesn't win a championship, at which point it won't have been the right decision.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:16 pm    Post subject:

How can you NOT say it was the right move? Requiring future results to say something was the right move or not is ridiculous.

Kobe was the right move.
Shaq was the right move.

Hell even Dwight was the right move because we got something for Bynum. This whole argument of requiring hindsight is just silly.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:17 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Well, this thread got hijacked. We’re back to the same old Kobe vs. Lebron all-time ranking argument. We need a Kush vs. Moonriver cage match.


Given that there is no downside to getting Lebron (especially in light of the lack of other FAs who have signed with us over the past 5 years), it would seem that this thread was always about Lebron v. Kobe (whether explicitly said or implicitly said).


do you know why? it's because so many people (probably teens too young to have watched Kobe's entire career) already ignorantly place Lebron on the Mt. Rushmore of bball ahead of Kobe and it's infuriating. People are literally rewriting history as Lebron being definitively better when the opposite is true.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:18 pm    Post subject:

Reilec142002 wrote:

Hell even Dwight was the right move because we got something for Bynum.


D12 was not the right move, he was terrible and won nothing. If we had a time machine no one would do it, so of course it's not the right move.

And we could have traded all-star Bynum for a lot of assets, not just a D12 rental.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:19 pm    Post subject:

NYClakerguy wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Well, this thread got hijacked. We’re back to the same old Kobe vs. Lebron all-time ranking argument. We need a Kush vs. Moonriver cage match.


Given that there is no downside to getting Lebron (especially in light of the lack of other FAs who have signed with us over the past 5 years), it would seem that this thread was always about Lebron v. Kobe (whether explicitly said or implicitly said).


do you know why? it's because so many people (probably teens too young to have watched Kobe's entire career) already ignorantly place Lebron on the Mt. Rushmore of bball ahead of Kobe and it's infuriating. People are literally rewriting history as Lebron being definitively better when the opposite is true.


Ok... that's fine, but that doesn't mean you complain about the Lakers signing him. Complain that Kobe is underrated or that Lebron is overrated, but don't say the Lakers shouldn't have signed Lebron as the "wrong move." They are separate issues and not what this thread was created to discuss.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:22 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
but don't say the Lakers shouldn't have signed Lebron as the "wrong move."


Why not? People are allowed to have an opinion. It's very possible Lebron won't win a title, and the Lakers may give up a lot of young assets to go into "win now" mode.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:23 pm    Post subject:

toksfale wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:

Lebron didn't prevent the Lakers from signing Randle for "dirt cheap." Lebron had nothing to do with that. However, lets say we sign Randle for "dirt cheap" and don't sign Lebron, are we closer to a title? No.


It certainly played a role, because Lebron meant Randle's role would be diminished, and it made both sides want to walk.

Being "closer to a title" doesn't count for anything, you have to win titles. Lebron has a ton of mileage, just got swept in the Finals, and now you're locked in with him for the next 4 years with pressure to move assets to "win now". It could very well turn out that he doesn't win a championship, at which point it won't have been the right decision.


Its either the right move AT THE TIME or the wrong move AT THE TIME. Pick one and then justify which side you are on.

If your response is to say "I don't know since we can't know until we see the results" then you are playing a game of semantics because obviously no one can know whether a decision ended up being the "right one" until the results are in. However, you know that's not what is being debated here - we are debating whether it was the right move at the time - which means that if you continue that line of argument, you are simply trolling.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:25 pm    Post subject:

Dwight trade was absolutely the right move at the time. Bynum was done. Never came back. And we swung a good trade for him.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:

Its either the right move AT THE TIME or the wrong move AT THE TIME. Pick one and then justify which side you are on.


"At the time" doesn't count for anything. Only the results (championships) matter. If you put a gun to my head I don't think Lebron is going to be able to win in the West. And now the Lakers let Randle walk for dirt cheap, probably looked to move Lonzo, and might fire Luke Walton. It's very possible it doesn't work out, and it's a perfectly normal opinion to think that.
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