Jimmy Butler (at half the cost of Kawhi)?
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Dr. Laker
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:39 am    Post subject:

Big Game James wrote:
Why is everyone assuming that we must pay top dollar for Kawhi when the facts are that there is zero market for him?

Conversely, why is there an assumption that anyone can trade Butler for peanuts when he has clearly not tanked his value and is not coming off of a questionable injury?

There's no logic in this thread!


1 - The Spurs DO NOT WANT to trade Kawhi - least of all to the Lakers - and are asking a high price in hopes that he will change his mind (see:Bryant, Kobe, c. 2007).

2 - The Wolves WANT to move Butler - he's clashing with KAT/Wiggins/et.al, - and as an expiring teams are wary, given the talk of Kyrie and him joining the Knicks. It is a concern, but the lakers have a fallback if he doesn't re-up with us.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:29 am    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
Big Game James wrote:
Why is everyone assuming that we must pay top dollar for Kawhi when the facts are that there is zero market for him?

Conversely, why is there an assumption that anyone can trade Butler for peanuts when he has clearly not tanked his value and is not coming off of a questionable injury?

There's no logic in this thread!


1 - The Spurs DO NOT WANT to trade Kawhi - least of all to the Lakers - and are asking a high price in hopes that he will change his mind (see:Bryant, Kobe, c. 2007).

2 - The Wolves WANT to move Butler - he's clashing with KAT/Wiggins/et.al, - and as an expiring teams are wary, given the talk of Kyrie and him joining the Knicks. It is a concern, but the lakers have a fallback if he doesn't re-up with us.


The Spurs do want to trade Kwahi. They realize that he has become a cancer to them and that their relationship with him is beyond repair. The fact that they are attempting to gouge the only buyer (Lakers) is transparent and as a result, Magic and Pelinka aren't falling for it. They aren't going to overpay the Spurs outrageous asking price (thus the flaw in the logic of this thread).

The Timberwolves on the other are still at the early stages of this issue with Butler. There is the possibility that their team can be mended and improved. Butler hasn't tanked his value, so if the organization decides to put him on the market, there will be many more suitors. As such, his market value would be substantially larger than Kawhi. But for some reason, some of you are under the impression that he'll be cheaper? Crazy!
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chekmatex4
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
chekmatex4 wrote:
I wouldn't say Butler is half the cost of Kawhi. I also have concerns Butler would resign as I read he is very interested in playing with Kyrie and Celtics can offer better trade offer.

Kawhi - Deng, Ingram, Hart, 2019 pick, 2021 pick, right to swap picks in 2020. We would decrease the number of assets sent if we don't send Deng out.

Butler - Deng, Ingram, 2019 pick, 2021 pick, right to swap picks in 2020. We would decrease the number of assets sent if we don't send Deng out.

They key sticking point is Deng as we have to consider that it requires assets to move Deng's contract and assets to acquire the All Star player.


My thinking is that we work a deal that does NOT cost us BI or Kuz. If we're moving one of those guys, we might as well hang in there for Kawhi.
LOL, so how do you expect Lakers to even match salaries? They are going to take Deng's contract from the kindness of their heart.

Wolves gave up Dunn, Lavine, and #7 pick for Butler. That's 2 prospects on rookie deal contracts and a top 10 lottery pick.
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chekmatex4
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:53 am    Post subject:

Big Game James wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
Big Game James wrote:
Why is everyone assuming that we must pay top dollar for Kawhi when the facts are that there is zero market for him?

Conversely, why is there an assumption that anyone can trade Butler for peanuts when he has clearly not tanked his value and is not coming off of a questionable injury?

There's no logic in this thread!


1 - The Spurs DO NOT WANT to trade Kawhi - least of all to the Lakers - and are asking a high price in hopes that he will change his mind (see:Bryant, Kobe, c. 2007).

2 - The Wolves WANT to move Butler - he's clashing with KAT/Wiggins/et.al, - and as an expiring teams are wary, given the talk of Kyrie and him joining the Knicks. It is a concern, but the lakers have a fallback if he doesn't re-up with us.


The Spurs do want to trade Kwahi. They realize that he has become a cancer to them and that their relationship with him is beyond repair. The fact that they are attempting to gouge the only buyer (Lakers) is transparent and as a result, Magic and Pelinka aren't falling for it. They aren't going to overpay the Spurs outrageous asking price (thus the flaw in the logic of this thread).

The Timberwolves on the other are still at the early stages of this issue with Butler. There is the possibility that their team can be mended and improved. Butler hasn't tanked his value, so if the organization decides to put him on the market, there will be many more suitors. As such, his market value would be substantially larger than Kawhi. But for some reason, some of you are under the impression that he'll be cheaper? Crazy!
I agree with Big Game James. Spurs relationship with Kawhi does not seem salvageable.

Butlers issues are around the maturity of the players surrounding him. Wolves can decide to keep Butler and move other pieces. Further, Butler hasn't provided any preferred destinations so a bidding war might start. I read that he and Kyrie have a good relationship and they want to play together.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:30 pm    Post subject:

chekmatex4 wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
chekmatex4 wrote:
I wouldn't say Butler is half the cost of Kawhi. I also have concerns Butler would resign as I read he is very interested in playing with Kyrie and Celtics can offer better trade offer.

Kawhi - Deng, Ingram, Hart, 2019 pick, 2021 pick, right to swap picks in 2020. We would decrease the number of assets sent if we don't send Deng out.

Butler - Deng, Ingram, 2019 pick, 2021 pick, right to swap picks in 2020. We would decrease the number of assets sent if we don't send Deng out.

They key sticking point is Deng as we have to consider that it requires assets to move Deng's contract and assets to acquire the All Star player.


My thinking is that we work a deal that does NOT cost us BI or Kuz. If we're moving one of those guys, we might as well hang in there for Kawhi.
LOL, so how do you expect Lakers to even match salaries? They are going to take Deng's contract from the kindness of their heart.

Wolves gave up Dunn, Lavine, and #7 pick for Butler. That's 2 prospects on rookie deal contracts and a top 10 lottery pick.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2783852-timberwolves-rumors-luol-deng-joakim-noah-could-be-of-interest-if-bought-out

Wolves have interest in him (albeit via buyout). If the pot is big enough, they can eat a year of his deal.

Deng, Hart, two #1s.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:44 pm    Post subject:

The way the Lakers are positioned, I can't see them shipping Deng off this season. Everything points to them riding out Deng for one more year. Next season he becomes valuable in that he becomes an expiring contract. Plus, if the Spurs do end up trading Kawhi to the Lakers at some point during the season, then we have numerous expiring contracts available that can balance the trade (Stephenson, Rondo, McGee and KCP).
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:43 pm    Post subject:

Big Game James wrote:
The way the Lakers are positioned, I can't see them shipping Deng off this season. Everything points to them riding out Deng for one more year. Next season he becomes valuable in that he becomes an expiring contract. Plus, if the Spurs do end up trading Kawhi to the Lakers at some point during the season, then we have numerous expiring contracts available that can balance the trade (Stephenson, Rondo, McGee and KCP).


The "value" of an ending contract is in a trade with a team that is looking to shed long term salary obligations or to match a player that is signed to a long term deal.

If we wanted (hypothetically) to make a run at PG13 (unlikely) in 2019-20 after OKC feels the pain of being a perpetual 5 seed paying repeater taxes, then yes, Deng is a HUGE piece - in 2019-20.

But if he can be used to acquire a piece NOW, that's the highest/best use.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:00 pm    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
Big Game James wrote:
The way the Lakers are positioned, I can't see them shipping Deng off this season. Everything points to them riding out Deng for one more year. Next season he becomes valuable in that he becomes an expiring contract. Plus, if the Spurs do end up trading Kawhi to the Lakers at some point during the season, then we have numerous expiring contracts available that can balance the trade (Stephenson, Rondo, McGee and KCP).


The "value" of an ending contract is in a trade with a team that is looking to shed long term salary obligations or to match a player that is signed to a long term deal.

If we wanted (hypothetically) to make a run at PG13 (unlikely) in 2019-20 after OKC feels the pain of being a perpetual 5 seed paying repeater taxes, then yes, Deng is a HUGE piece - in 2019-20.

But if he can be used to acquire a piece NOW, that's the highest/best use.


You are overlooking another reason why an expiring contract can be valuable. If a team wants to position themselves as buyers in 2020, they'll be looking to tank in 2019, acquire assets by trading for expiring contracts (with a pick attached) to meet the cap floor and be ready to spend on a big free agent in 2020. An expiring contract in that case is of no real consequence since they are tanking that season.

Deng is exceptionally good at tanking. He has years of experience now!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:47 pm    Post subject:

Big Game James wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
Big Game James wrote:
The way the Lakers are positioned, I can't see them shipping Deng off this season. Everything points to them riding out Deng for one more year. Next season he becomes valuable in that he becomes an expiring contract. Plus, if the Spurs do end up trading Kawhi to the Lakers at some point during the season, then we have numerous expiring contracts available that can balance the trade (Stephenson, Rondo, McGee and KCP).


The "value" of an ending contract is in a trade with a team that is looking to shed long term salary obligations or to match a player that is signed to a long term deal.

If we wanted (hypothetically) to make a run at PG13 (unlikely) in 2019-20 after OKC feels the pain of being a perpetual 5 seed paying repeater taxes, then yes, Deng is a HUGE piece - in 2019-20.

But if he can be used to acquire a piece NOW, that's the highest/best use.


You are overlooking another reason why an expiring contract can be valuable. If a team wants to position themselves as buyers in 2020, they'll be looking to tank in 2019, acquire assets by trading for expiring contracts (with a pick attached) to meet the cap floor and be ready to spend on a big free agent in 2020. An expiring contract in that case is of no real consequence since they are tanking that season.

Deng is exceptionally good at tanking. He has years of experience now!


Point taken!
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