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Inspector Gadget
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Joined: 18 Apr 2016
Posts: 46681
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 Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | James Harden needs to repeat these great performances in the playoffs if he wants to be in the same tier as Kobe and Jordan, he has failed way to much in the playoffs, if he doesn’t take the Rockets to the Finals he will just be seen as another Dominique Wilkins, great stats guy and nothing else, I’m sure you agree Dreamshake. |
Agreed in full. He can't keep faltering in the postseason.
I wouldn't say Wilkins though. Harden has led teams to the WCF's twice, only to lose to what appears to be an arguable GOAT squad. Someone like Nash would probably be a better comparison. Guys that have gotten very far but not to the big dance. |
Good point on the Wilkins comment, yeah I think at this point Harden is more like Steve Nash and Charles Barkley, guys who took there teams deep in the playoffs but didn’t get it done. |
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Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Runway8 wrote: | I think people who didn't like Kobe because he wasn't as efficient as MJ, surely do not like Harden, right? Like tonight, 61 pts, but has the liberty of going 5-20 from threes and gets 25 fts. There was also a game where he broke Kobe's 30 pt streak, but he shot 1-17 threes in that game. On top of all these bricks, he didn't play the defense that Kobe played.
Guys like Charles Barkley, who are slobbering over this guy, are smoking crack and have short memories. |
Harden's career TS% is 61% Kobe's is 55% Jordan's is 57%
I agree with the person who said he needs to do it in the playoffs to be one of the true greats... but what Harden is doing is historical in any era.
Dominique's career TS% is 53.6%... same as what "scrub" Ingram shot last season.
Westbrook's career TS% is 52.9%
World B. Free's TS is 52,7%
These are more inefficient scorers
KD's TS% is 61%
Curry's TS% is 62%
What Harden's doing is incredible. |
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drae
Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2018
Posts: 16144
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The Juggernaut
Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 4572
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | Runway8 wrote: | I think people who didn't like Kobe because he wasn't as efficient as MJ, surely do not like Harden, right? Like tonight, 61 pts, but has the liberty of going 5-20 from threes and gets 25 fts. There was also a game where he broke Kobe's 30 pt streak, but he shot 1-17 threes in that game. On top of all these bricks, he didn't play the defense that Kobe played.
Guys like Charles Barkley, who are slobbering over this guy, are smoking crack and have short memories. |
Harden's career TS% is 61% Kobe's is 55% Jordan's is 57%
I agree with the person who said he needs to do it in the playoffs to be one of the true greats... but what Harden is doing is historical in any era.
Dominique's career TS% is 53.6%... same as what "scrub" Ingram shot last season.
Westbrook's career TS% is 52.9%
World B. Free's TS is 52,7%
These are more inefficient scorers
KD's TS% is 61%
Curry's TS% is 62%
What Harden's doing is incredible. |
Harden is this eras Dantley |
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Runway8
Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 22853
Location: La Jolla, San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | Runway8 wrote: | I think people who didn't like Kobe because he wasn't as efficient as MJ, surely do not like Harden, right? Like tonight, 61 pts, but has the liberty of going 5-20 from threes and gets 25 fts. There was also a game where he broke Kobe's 30 pt streak, but he shot 1-17 threes in that game. On top of all these bricks, he didn't play the defense that Kobe played.
Guys like Charles Barkley, who are slobbering over this guy, are smoking crack and have short memories. |
Harden's career TS% is 61% Kobe's is 55% Jordan's is 57%
I agree with the person who said he needs to do it in the playoffs to be one of the true greats... but what Harden is doing is historical in any era.
Dominique's career TS% is 53.6%... same as what "scrub" Ingram shot last season.
Westbrook's career TS% is 52.9%
World B. Free's TS is 52,7%
These are more inefficient scorers
KD's TS% is 61%
Curry's TS% is 62%
What Harden's doing is incredible. |
I don't know, I just don't buy it. I don't believe he's an authentic super star. MDA's offense turns scrubs into respectable role players. So if you have decent talent, it just makes sense that you will see something like this out of his best player. You saw it when he had Nash too. At the time, we all thought he was the weakest player to ever win MVP. Neither Harden nor Nash plays D, but in their primes.. I will still build around Nash instead of Harden because at least Nash was efficient, a 50/40/90 guy.
In Harden, I just see a brick machine who hits the number of threes he hits because of the sheer volume he throws up. If they are all super heroes, I guess his power is the FT draw. |
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ChickenStu
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Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 31922
Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| The Pelicans are now 4 games out of a playoff spot after losing to Detroit at home. I assume they will beat Chicago in their final game before the deadline, but here are their next 6 games before that Chicago game: at OKC, vs Spurs, at Rockets, vs Nuggets, at Spurs, vs Pacers. |
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Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| The Juggernaut wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Runway8 wrote: | I think people who didn't like Kobe because he wasn't as efficient as MJ, surely do not like Harden, right? Like tonight, 61 pts, but has the liberty of going 5-20 from threes and gets 25 fts. There was also a game where he broke Kobe's 30 pt streak, but he shot 1-17 threes in that game. On top of all these bricks, he didn't play the defense that Kobe played.
Guys like Charles Barkley, who are slobbering over this guy, are smoking crack and have short memories. |
Harden's career TS% is 61% Kobe's is 55% Jordan's is 57%
I agree with the person who said he needs to do it in the playoffs to be one of the true greats... but what Harden is doing is historical in any era.
Dominique's career TS% is 53.6%... same as what "scrub" Ingram shot last season.
Westbrook's career TS% is 52.9%
World B. Free's TS is 52,7%
These are more inefficient scorers
KD's TS% is 61%
Curry's TS% is 62%
What Harden's doing is incredible. |
Harden is this eras Dantley |
I don't think Dantley could drag his teams to the finals... he needed the Bad Boys to get there. When Dantley had no one... he wouldn't win 30 games with Utah.
The way Harden's playing he can get scrubs to a conference final.
But it's true he will be remembered as a Dantley type if he keeps losing in the playoffs.
As I said... he needs to win a chip to be considered among the best. |
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Inspector Gadget
Retired Number
Joined: 18 Apr 2016
Posts: 46681
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Jazz are playing with another gear, Clipps or Spurs will hopefully drop out. |
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The Juggernaut
Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 4572
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | The Juggernaut wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Runway8 wrote: | I think people who didn't like Kobe because he wasn't as efficient as MJ, surely do not like Harden, right? Like tonight, 61 pts, but has the liberty of going 5-20 from threes and gets 25 fts. There was also a game where he broke Kobe's 30 pt streak, but he shot 1-17 threes in that game. On top of all these bricks, he didn't play the defense that Kobe played.
Guys like Charles Barkley, who are slobbering over this guy, are smoking crack and have short memories. |
Harden's career TS% is 61% Kobe's is 55% Jordan's is 57%
I agree with the person who said he needs to do it in the playoffs to be one of the true greats... but what Harden is doing is historical in any era.
Dominique's career TS% is 53.6%... same as what "scrub" Ingram shot last season.
Westbrook's career TS% is 52.9%
World B. Free's TS is 52,7%
These are more inefficient scorers
KD's TS% is 61%
Curry's TS% is 62%
What Harden's doing is incredible. |
Harden is this eras Dantley |
I don't think Dantley could drag his teams to the finals... he needed the Bad Boys to get there. When Dantley had no one... he wouldn't win 30 games with Utah.
The way Harden's playing he can get scrubs to a conference final.
But it's true he will be remembered as a Dantley type if he keeps losing in the playoffs.
As I said... he needs to win a chip to be considered among the best. |
He's half a notch better than Dantley but so far he's done nothing memorable in the playoffs other than choke |
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Dreamshake
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 13712
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| Runway8 wrote: | | MDA's offense turns scrubs into respectable role players. So if you have decent talent, it just makes sense that you will see something like this out of his best player. You saw it when he had Nash too. At the time, we all thought he was the weakest player to ever win MVP. Neither Harden nor Nash plays D, but in their primes.. |
Harden was the MVP runner up with Kevin McHale as his coach, and he arguably should have won MVP that year considering he led us to 56 wins despite Howard missing half the season and Beverly missing 26 games. He lost to GS in the WCF's that year, with a gimpy Howard, no Beverly and minus his starting and backup PF.
| Runway8 wrote: | | I will still build around Nash instead of Harden because at least Nash was efficient, a 50/40/90 guy. |
Harden has led his team to the WCF's just as many times as Nash, and he had less help both times.
| Runway8 wrote: | | In Harden, I just see a brick machine who hits the number of threes he hits because of the sheer volume he throws up. If they are all super heroes, I guess his power is the FT draw. |
He's making 52% of his 2 point FGs and 37% of his 3 point FGs. The actual data says says different. |
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Dreamshake
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 13712
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| The Juggernaut wrote: | | He's half a notch better than Dantley but so far he's done nothing memorable in the playoffs other than choke |
Harden has led his team to more playoff success than every guy currently in the league but LeBron, Durant, Curry and old relics like Wade and Dirk. He needs to win a chip but he's had more playoff success than most. But he does need to win. |
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venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144474
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| The Juggernaut wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | The Juggernaut wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Runway8 wrote: | I think people who didn't like Kobe because he wasn't as efficient as MJ, surely do not like Harden, right? Like tonight, 61 pts, but has the liberty of going 5-20 from threes and gets 25 fts. There was also a game where he broke Kobe's 30 pt streak, but he shot 1-17 threes in that game. On top of all these bricks, he didn't play the defense that Kobe played.
Guys like Charles Barkley, who are slobbering over this guy, are smoking crack and have short memories. |
Harden's career TS% is 61% Kobe's is 55% Jordan's is 57%
I agree with the person who said he needs to do it in the playoffs to be one of the true greats... but what Harden is doing is historical in any era.
Dominique's career TS% is 53.6%... same as what "scrub" Ingram shot last season.
Westbrook's career TS% is 52.9%
World B. Free's TS is 52,7%
These are more inefficient scorers
KD's TS% is 61%
Curry's TS% is 62%
What Harden's doing is incredible. |
Harden is this eras Dantley |
I don't think Dantley could drag his teams to the finals... he needed the Bad Boys to get there. When Dantley had no one... he wouldn't win 30 games with Utah.
The way Harden's playing he can get scrubs to a conference final.
But it's true he will be remembered as a Dantley type if he keeps losing in the playoffs.
As I said... he needs to win a chip to be considered among the best. |
He's half a notch better than Dantley but so far he's done nothing memorable in the playoffs other than choke |
Then Lebron must be the all time greatest choker, the Rockets gave the Warriors a tougher series than the Cavs did. And neither Lebron or Harden are chokers.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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troy
Star Player
Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 4991
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:03 am Post subject: |
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People always fall for the gimmick, the shiny stuff. People see the big points Harden makes and its like, gee, he's the best ever!
No.
I'm not sold on Harden. He has the ultimate green light, and yes he's scoring points. But, there are quite a few NBA players that could score lots of points if they had the sort of green light Harden has.
And most important, while Harden has been averaging a ton of points lately, his team is only 5-5 in the past 10 games. So his scoring binge isn't translating to wins.
If/when the Rockets make the playoffs, Harden's antics will be drilled down on and stopped by opposing teams in a 7 game series. And then where will the Rockets be? |
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audioaxes
Franchise Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 12573
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | Runway8 wrote: | I think people who didn't like Kobe because he wasn't as efficient as MJ, surely do not like Harden, right? Like tonight, 61 pts, but has the liberty of going 5-20 from threes and gets 25 fts. There was also a game where he broke Kobe's 30 pt streak, but he shot 1-17 threes in that game. On top of all these bricks, he didn't play the defense that Kobe played.
Guys like Charles Barkley, who are slobbering over this guy, are smoking crack and have short memories. |
Harden's career TS% is 61% Kobe's is 55% Jordan's is 57%
I agree with the person who said he needs to do it in the playoffs to be one of the true greats... but what Harden is doing is historical in any era.
Dominique's career TS% is 53.6%... same as what "scrub" Ingram shot last season.
Westbrook's career TS% is 52.9%
World B. Free's TS is 52,7%
These are more inefficient scorers
KD's TS% is 61%
Curry's TS% is 62%
What Harden's doing is incredible. |
well his FT % is a big part of his TS. And he gets foul calls that Kobe couldnt dream of getting |
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Dreamshake
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 13712
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| troy wrote: | | I'm not sold on Harden. He has the ultimate green light, and yes he's scoring points. But, there are quite a few NBA players that could score lots of points if they had the sort of green light Harden has. |
Not at this level of efficiency.
| troy wrote: | | And most important, while Harden has been averaging a ton of points lately, his team is only 5-5 in the past 10 games. So his scoring binge isn't translating to wins. |
The binge started against y'all and Houston is 15-6 over that timeframe. I'm sure it stops once CP3 comes back. |
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yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:34 am Post subject: |
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Ah, the Harden/Dreamshake thread. 
Welcome back DS, haven't seen you in a minute.
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From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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PHILosophize
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Joined: 05 Nov 2012
Posts: 10758
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:40 am Post subject: |
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this thread should be renamed masochists anonymous
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one dog goes that way the other dog goes the other way |
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epak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 34147
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Comparing TS% for players in different eras but not acknowledging that era's TS% league average doesn't seem to make sense to me :\
Last edited by epak on Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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The Juggernaut
Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 4572
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | The Juggernaut wrote: | | He's half a notch better than Dantley but so far he's done nothing memorable in the playoffs other than choke |
Harden has led his team to more playoff success than every guy currently in the league but LeBron, Durant, Curry and old relics like Wade and Dirk. He needs to win a chip but he's had more playoff success than most. But he does need to win. |
He needs to win rings to be considered in the top 25 all time period. You don't get brownie points for WCF losses. Ask Steve Nash. He's yet to have anywhere close to the same level of impact in the playoffs. Most All time greats ELEVATE their game in the playoffs, with Harden I have seen his game be reduced. And his teams have been FULL of talent so that's not an excuse |
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Dreamshake
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 13712
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| The Juggernaut wrote: | | He needs to win rings to be considered in the top 25 all time period. |
If you google the top 25 players in nba history you will see numerous ringless players in the top 25, such as Barkley, Baylor, Malone, Stockton and Miller.
| The Juggernaut wrote: | | He's yet to have anywhere close to the same level of impact in the playoffs. |
This is simply false. He's had just as much playoff success as plenty of other players that have never led a team to a title. There have only been around 12 guys to do that since the 80's. Yeah, he's got to win to be considered like one of them. But as far as playoff success, he's had plenty compared to other great players, even those considered top 25 and definitely more than anyone else in his era except for like 4 dudes.
I look at his career like I saw Dirk's. Labeled a nut-up until he finally won, and now he's arguably overrated.
| The Juggernaut wrote: | | And his teams have been FULL of talent so that's not an excuse |
Now that's funny.
Last edited by Dreamshake on Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| I hate the Rockets, I hate Harden and I’m starting to hate their fans. Hopefully we get to see y’all in the playoffs. |
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SGV-Laker fan
Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2013
Posts: 8880
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | I hate the Rockets, I hate Harden and I’m starting to hate their fans. Hopefully we get to see y’all in the playoffs. |
let's ban Dreamshake, who's with me? J/K, LOL |
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The Juggernaut
Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 4572
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | The Juggernaut wrote: | | He needs to win rings to be considered in the top 25 all time period. |
If you google the top 25 players in nba history you will see numerous ringless players in the top 25, such as Barkley, Baylor, Malone, Stockton and Miller.
| The Juggernaut wrote: | | He's yet to have anywhere close to the same level of impact in the playoffs. |
This is simply false. He's had just as much playoff success as plenty of other players that have never led a team to a title. There have only been around 12 guys to do that since the 80's. Yeah, he's got to win to be considered like one of them. But as far as playoff success, he's had plenty compared to other great players, even those considered top 25 and definitely more than anyone else in his era except for like 4 dudes.
I look at his career like I saw Dirk's. Labeled a nut-up until he finally won, and now he's arguably overrated.
| The Juggernaut wrote: | | And his teams have been FULL of talent so that's not an excuse |
Now that's funny. |
"Google the top 25" as if that's a set in stone list. Harden's performance from an individual standpoint takes a big dip in the playoffs. That is UNDENIABLE! His raw stats and advanced metrics all go down a good amount. That is not the case with most of the all time greats. Not to mention his memorable meltdowns in key playoff games.
You love to underrate the talent yall have had over the last 5-6 years but that's just simply BS. You guys have had plenty of talent since Harden got there. |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | I hate the Rockets, I hate Harden and I’m starting to hate their fans. Hopefully we get to see y’all in the playoffs. |
let's ban Dreamshake, who's with me? J/K, LOL |
Na we need him around when we end there season in Houston in the first round. |
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Jesusdelonla
Franchise Player
Joined: 24 Jan 2018
Posts: 15430
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | I hate the Rockets, I hate Harden and I’m starting to hate their fans. Hopefully we get to see y’all in the playoffs. |
let's ban Dreamshake, who's with me? J/K, LOL |
Na we need him around when we end there season in Houston in the first round. |
he simply will disappear again and show up next regular season |
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