Do the Lakers Have a Top 3 Bench?
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:46 pm    Post subject:

lakersibleed wrote:
They project tatum and hayward to start... why would you pick those two any way... why wouldnt you push jaylen brown to the bench??? but the projections even have him starting as well... so you probably will see morris on the bench...

But no matter what they dont have a guy like Kuz on that bench that i would trade for?

So to clarify my question, what i am asking is "what bench would you TRADE our bench for? Meaning swap the entire bench for our entire bench.


How many players do you project as starters for the Celtics?

The following guys started 12 or more games in the playoffs: Rozier, Tatum, Horford, Brown, and Baynes. Irving and Hayward are coming back. Smart and Morris are already on the bench. I assume that Rozier goes to the bench in favor of Irving. I guess you could put Hayward at the 2, but he's really a 3. If we make that questionable assumption, the bench is Rozier, Brown, Smart, and Morris, plus some bit players. I'd probably make that trade.
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lakersibleed
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
lakersibleed wrote:
They project tatum and hayward to start... why would you pick those two any way... why wouldnt you push jaylen brown to the bench??? but the projections even have him starting as well... so you probably will see morris on the bench...

But no matter what they dont have a guy like Kuz on that bench that i would trade for?

So to clarify my question, what i am asking is "what bench would you TRADE our bench for? Meaning swap the entire bench for our entire bench.


How many players do you project as starters for the Celtics?

The following guys started 12 or more games in the playoffs: Rozier, Tatum, Horford, Brown, and Baynes. Irving and Hayward are coming back. Smart and Morris are already on the bench. I assume that Rozier goes to the bench in favor of Irving. I guess you could put Hayward at the 2, but he's really a 3. If we make that questionable assumption, the bench is Rozier, Brown, Smart, and Morris, plus some bit players. I'd probably make that trade.


POS
Point Guard Kyrie Irving Terry Rozier Brad Wanamaker
Shooting Guard Jaylen Brown Marcus Smart Jabari Bird
Small Forward Gordon Hayward Semi Ojeleye
Power Forward Jayson Tatum Marcus Morris Guerschon Yabusele Robert Williams
Center Al Horford Aron Baynes Daniel Theis

http://www.espn.com/nba/team/depth/_/name/bos/boston-celtics

Thats the lineup I think most people expect from the Celtics this season...But even still I would NOT take that trade... However, even if you say the Celtics are the best bench in the league... My greater point is that there are not many benches that are better than ours, and I still maintain with the potential and upside that KUZ and Hart i would not TRADE our bench for the Celtics
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:56 pm    Post subject:

Scoffs wrote:
I hope Luke doesn't mess this up. Yes, we have a great bench, one of the best ever assembled, but in order for the bench to produce, they need playing time. This bench is much better than our JC/Lou/Nance bench from 3 seasons ago and that bench dominated other benches.
i'm kind of leaning towards your idea of how i hope it works but that doesnt mean it has to be that way. with your method/mine included. I think luke needs to play a lot of guys a good number of mins. injury or not. meaning, even if everyone is healthy, we can have a team full of guys who have a lot left in the tank by the time its the 82 game of the season. which means our entire team could be physically ready for a long playoff run because we didnt allow the season to beat any one guy up do to so many guys getting good mins in the rotation.

and I think because if rondo or zo plays off the bench as a pg. that already boosts the bench up into the top 5 just on the strength that they have a top tier playmaker/floor general that will keep everyone in their right spots and hit people where they are the most efficient. this keeps down the bad shots you usually get from your bench due to either young inexperienced guys off the pine or vets that chuck a lot and dont hit all the time but are 6th, -8th men off of the bench.

This could work if the entire team understands and agrees with this new concept. if not luke may have to go to an old school 8 to 9 man tops rotation.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:09 pm    Post subject:

lakersibleed wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
lakersibleed wrote:
The real question is "Is there a bench in the league that you would trade our bench for?"

Im looking around the league at depth charts and i dont see one bench in the league I would trade our bench for... mainly because we have two potential starters (Kuz and Hart) on that bench that i cant imagine us trading for any other bench players.


I'd need to see a list of all the benches, as I haven't been tracking all of the summer moves. Off the top of my head, the Celtics have a pretty stout bench. Depending on who starts for the Celtics, their bench includes either Tatum or Hayward, plus Smart, Morris, and Baynes.


They project tatum and hayward to start... why would you pick those two any way... why wouldnt you push jaylen brown to the bench??? but the projections even have him starting as well... so you probably will see morris on the bench...

But no matter what they dont have a guy like Kuz on that bench that i would trade for?

So to clarify my question, what i am asking is "what bench would you TRADE our bench for? Meaning swap the entire bench for our entire bench.


I agree with AH, the Celtics.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:59 pm    Post subject:

lakersibleed wrote:
POS
Point Guard Kyrie Irving Terry Rozier Brad Wanamaker
Shooting Guard Jaylen Brown Marcus Smart Jabari Bird
Small Forward Gordon Hayward Semi Ojeleye
Power Forward Jayson Tatum Marcus Morris Guerschon Yabusele Robert Williams
Center Al Horford Aron Baynes Daniel Theis

http://www.espn.com/nba/team/depth/_/name/bos/boston-celtics

Thats the lineup I think most people expect from the Celtics this season...But even still I would NOT take that trade... However, even if you say the Celtics are the best bench in the league... My greater point is that there are not many benches that are better than ours, and I still maintain with the potential and upside that KUZ and Hart i would not TRADE our bench for the Celtics


Jayson Tatum is a PF? Last season, he played PF in a small ball line 12% of the time. Anyway, I’m not going to get into the question of how much potential and upside Kuzma and Hart have. If you think that Kuzma and Hart are going to blossom into stars, then sure, you’re going to rate our bench highly. I’m rating the benches based on what the players have actually shown to date.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:20 pm    Post subject:

Based on past success you could make the argument that the Celtics have the better bench.

Would you trade our bench for theirs is another argument.. I wouldn't, based on the unrealized potential of ours.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:58 pm    Post subject:

Not top 3 offensive bench, not top 3 defensive bench.

But maybe top bench overall.
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Car54
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Quantity over quality. Rondo and Beasley would be positives. Better than most though not up to the GS standard. And unless you are playing for third place, that is the standard.


GSW has a bench?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:30 pm    Post subject:

diando wrote:
There's a bench that still has Livingston and Iguodala.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:37 pm    Post subject:

Not too many back up PG's I'd take over Livingston.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:27 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
Based on past success you could make the argument that the Celtics have the better bench.

Would you trade our bench for theirs is another argument.. I wouldn't, based on the unrealized potential of ours.

I think the average NBA watcher would think that Lakers' fans are overvaluing the 2018-19 Lakers' bench. We do, however, have very high--and maybe just a little too optimistic-expectations of what the young core will accomplish this next year. Right now, before the pre-season even starts, we think Kuzma will be an all-star, Hart will be Joe Dumars, Svi will be Peja, Lonzo will correct his shooting problems from 2017-18, Wagner will be a young Nowitzki, Zubac will play like Marc Gasol, and BI will be a better version of KD (ok, I am exaggerating on that last one just a little bit). This is what fans do. Hopefully, a couple of these overly optimistic expectations pan out. If they do, we will have a fantastic team. If not, it will be fun to watch.
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Last edited by Annihilator on Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:51 am; edited 2 times in total
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Car54
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:48 pm    Post subject:

watchME wrote:
Doc JC wrote:
Wouldn’t assume BI is starting over Kuzma to be honest. Kuzma imo is the best fit next to Lebron.

Remember Lebron plays the SF position quite often, which would put BI in the post.
Tell me one offensive skill kcp has that kuzma doesn’t. Tell me who ran PG better last year Ingram or Lonzo. If you want to win games Ingram-Kuzma-Lebron have to start.

and @mike we were #6 in pace before lonzo arrived, lukes goal has been to speed up the game because lonzo can not play half court basketball. Btw in the playoffs things will slow down.


Lol Ingram doesn’t run point better than Lonzo and he doesn’t defend as well as Lonzo
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject:

Being a top 6th man, I think means a guy coming off the bench, scoring 15-20 or more points a game, and even though not starting, likely outscores 2-4 starters most nights. Guys like Lou Williams, Jamal Crawford, come to mind. Having the best bench scorer in the league though is not the best bench.

Best second unit, which I think means your top 3 bench players, usually a backup PG, a SG/SF hybrid and a multi-purpose big man. You pretty much need this to be a good playoff or championship caliber team. Golden State has been like that the past couple of years with Iggy, Livingston, and Green. Its not just about the points, but boards, assists and defense. This year though, they barely beat Houston, and once they had Iggy back, they cruised against the Cavs.

To me best bench means the team with the best reserves 6-10 or 6-12. A bench that averages 35 points a more most every night. Golden State was there I think 4 years ago, but they have lost some of their punch. The Spurs in past years had a deep bench. Right now, I'd say the Celtics and the Lakers are among the deepest teams in the league.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:29 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Quantity over quality. Rondo and Beasley would be positives. Better than most though not up to the GS standard. And unless you are playing for third place, that is the standard.


GSW has a bench?


Iggy and Livingston are both solid bench players.

They have a bunch of young guys who played well last season and will get a bigger chance to show what they can do this year -- Cook, Bell, Looney.

I don't follow the Warriors too closely, but I'd guess their fans are as hopped up about some of their young players as we are about some of ours.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:40 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Car54 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Quantity over quality. Rondo and Beasley would be positives. Better than most though not up to the GS standard. And unless you are playing for third place, that is the standard.


GSW has a bench?


Iggy and Livingston are both solid bench players.

They have a bunch of young guys who played well last season and will get a bigger chance to show what they can do this year -- Cook, Bell, Looney.

I don't follow the Warriors too closely, but I'd guess their fans are as hopped up about some of their young players as we are about some of ours.


Andre wasn’t good last year
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:51 pm    Post subject:

The Pacers bench was solid last season and should be greatly improved this season.

They added 3 solid free agents this off season Tyreke Evans (sf/sg/pg) a better version of Lance Stephenson who he replaces. Kyle O'Quinn a big improvement over Al Jefferson. Doug McDermitt a career 40% , 3 point shooter something they lacked last season.

Add 2 returning solid bench players , 22 year old rapidly improving Domantas Sabonis 11.6 ppg and 7.7 rpg off the bench last season and back up pg Cory Joseph 8 ppg last season.

They have 2 solid bangers in Sabonis and O'Quinn, McDermitt and Evans both shot 40% or better from 3 last season. Evans 5apg for his career and Joseph can both handle the point.

Adding more depth will be former UCLA Bruins Aaron Holiday and TJ Leaf. Another former Bruin Ike Anigbogu, 2nd rounder Alize Johnson and sometime NBA player CJ Wilcox could offer more depth.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:49 am    Post subject:

watchME wrote:
Doc JC wrote:
Wouldn’t assume BI is starting over Kuzma to be honest. Kuzma imo is the best fit next to Lebron.

Remember Lebron plays the SF position quite often, which would put BI in the post.
Tell me one offensive skill kcp has that kuzma doesn’t. Tell me who ran PG better last year Ingram or Lonzo. If you want to win games Ingram-Kuzma-Lebron have to start.

and @mike we were #6 in pace before lonzo arrived, lukes goal has been to speed up the game because lonzo can not play half court basketball.Btw in the playoffs things will slow down.

Did you not catch the contradiction there? You devalue Mike's point about the dramatic impact Lonzo has on the Lakers’ pace by arguing that they already played with pace before he got there. But then you said they only play with pace to make up for Lonzo’s shortcomings in the half court

Anytime Lonzo is involved your posts immediately become as odoriferous as a skunk that stole a baby's diaper.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:44 am    Post subject:

Judah wrote:

Anytime Lonzo is involved your posts immediately become as odoriferous as a skunk that stole a baby's diaper.

Rude. You can make your point without going personal.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:04 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Okay, but what makes for a good bench? I agree with VLF that this is quantity over quality. I guess it might be a top 3 bench from a certain perspective, but I don't have a handy list of the benches around the league for comparison purposes.


Some criteria in my head:

1. 6MOY capable players
2. able to fill in for starters in case of injuries
3. versatility and functionality.

Some teams have #1 (i.e. Houston, Clips, but may lack #2/3).

I think we excel in #2/3.


I just don't see it. We don't have a replacement level big man on the roster. We don't have specialists (shooters, defenders, whatever) on the bench. We have a couple kids and a bunch of guys who have been bouncing from team to team. I suppose that it could turn out to be an effective bench if everything clicks.


REPLACEMENT BIG MAN:
Zubac, career averages of 16 points and 10 rebounds per 36 minuts, career PER of 16.3

SPECIALISTS:
Passing: Rondo
Instant offense: Beasley, Kuzma
3-pt shooting: Svi, Hart

6MOY CAPABLE PLAYER:
Kuzma
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:12 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Car54 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Quantity over quality. Rondo and Beasley would be positives. Better than most though not up to the GS standard. And unless you are playing for third place, that is the standard.


GSW has a bench?


Iggy and Livingston are both solid bench players.

They have a bunch of young guys who played well last season and will get a bigger chance to show what they can do this year -- Cook, Bell, Looney.

I don't follow the Warriors too closely, but I'd guess their fans are as hopped up about some of their young players as we are about some of ours.


Kuzma and Hart, as rookies, were already better than Iggy and Livingston. I expect the difference to grow this year.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:04 am    Post subject:

Starters:

Zo
KCP
BI
Bron
Javelle

Our 2nd unit is top 3 easily:

Rondo
Hart
Kuz
B-Easy
Zu

Rondo averaged 8apg last year and was dynamic in the playoffs (he's a big loss for Pels btw). Rondo will make Zu serviceable again. Hart Kuz and B-Easy can already get their own shots. I even think Lance will do damage in this offense. Can't wait for the season to begin.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:07 am    Post subject:

And I wouldn't crown the Dubs bench just yet. The Dubs have a TON of mileage on their legs similar to the deep runs we had 2000-2004. Fatigue will become a factor just like with us.

Fatigue set in on us again 2008-2011. In both instances we had a lot of wear and tear. Dallas was lucky in 2011 to run into a tired Laker team that also had turmoil (Pau and Shannon Brown fiasco IIRC).
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:46 am    Post subject:

Too early to tell, but I think it's plausible we have a top 3 bench, and I wouldn't rule out best bench in the league, including GS. We'll see how this plays out.

I am certain we're a LOT deeper than last year, and if Ingram, Lonzo and Hart were to simultaneously go out with 3 week injuries we'd still have the depth this time around to clobber teams.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:11 am    Post subject:

markjay wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I just don't see it. We don't have a replacement level big man on the roster. We don't have specialists (shooters, defenders, whatever) on the bench. We have a couple kids and a bunch of guys who have been bouncing from team to team. I suppose that it could turn out to be an effective bench if everything clicks.


REPLACEMENT BIG MAN:
Zubac, career averages of 16 points and 10 rebounds per 36 minuts, career PER of 16.3

SPECIALISTS:
Passing: Rondo
Instant offense: Beasley, Kuzma
3-pt shooting: Svi, Hart

6MOY CAPABLE PLAYER:
Kuzma


Sure, if you believe that, I can understand why you rate our bench highly. However, that’s close to a best-case scenario. Zubac has played about 1000 minutes in his entire career and averaged 9.5 mpg in 43 games last year. Svi has never played a game in the NBA and was the 47th pick in the draft. Rondo is on his sixth team since the end of the 2014 season. Beasley is on his fifth team during the same time period. Kuzma and Hart may or may not live up to the hype around here.

So sure, if everything clicks just right, the bench could be good. Whether that happens remains to be seen.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:12 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
lakersibleed wrote:
They project tatum and hayward to start... why would you pick those two any way... why wouldnt you push jaylen brown to the bench??? but the projections even have him starting as well... so you probably will see morris on the bench...

But no matter what they dont have a guy like Kuz on that bench that i would trade for?

So to clarify my question, what i am asking is "what bench would you TRADE our bench for? Meaning swap the entire bench for our entire bench.


How many players do you project as starters for the Celtics?

The following guys started 12 or more games in the playoffs: Rozier, Tatum, Horford, Brown, and Baynes. Irving and Hayward are coming back. Smart and Morris are already on the bench. I assume that Rozier goes to the bench in favor of Irving. I guess you could put Hayward at the 2, but he's really a 3. If we make that questionable assumption, the bench is Rozier, Brown, Smart, and Morris, plus some bit players. I'd probably make that trade.
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