Kobe mentoring Celtic’s Jayson Tatum: “Why didn’t Lakers draft him?”
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:21 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Which reflects the idea that winning a title wasn’t his highest priority. Players like Ball, Ingram and Kuzma are nowhere close to being starters on a title team.


Can't spell VLF without "L."

Take the L, root for the team, enjoy life for once my friend.

Why does it matter so much to you why LBJ came? He's said publicly he still wants to win championships, and that his family's input and life is also important. Can't someone like him have it all?
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lakersboy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:21 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Which reflects the idea that winning a title wasn’t his highest priority. Players like Ball, Ingram and Kuzma are nowhere close to being starters on a title team.

That's your fan-based opinion. It's not LeBrons opinion.

Knowing LeBron for these past 15 years, he's not sitting at home saying "I can't win it." He's thinking "my work is going to be difficult us this year but we're going to give it our best and go for it. I think we can do this."
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:29 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Which reflects the idea that winning a title wasn’t his highest priority. Players like Ball, Ingram and Kuzma are nowhere close to being starters on a title team.


Can't spell VLF without "L."

Take the L
, root for the team, enjoy life for once my friend.

Why does it matter so much to you why LBJ came? He's said publicly he still wants to win championships, and that his family's input and life is also important. Can't someone like him have it all?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:34 am    Post subject:

watchME wrote:
I hope this doesn't get taken out of context and labeled as trolling.

Stock & Kidd, Cp3, and Rondo combined for 63+ Seasons and only 2 rings which came at the end of Kidd's career as a ring chaser and Rondo with KG, Pierce, and Allen. Are we overvaluing Lonzo's skill set?


Assuming Lonzo reaches their status, we are betting on a %3.17 winning style.


Especially in an era of versatility and positionless basketball where everyone on the floor must be able to get you 3-5 assist per game. I feel like that skillset is overvalued. If you have a good system where you swing the ball around and always move the ball up in transition you will be fine as a passing team.


Give me Tatum's 24ppg in his prime with a 3-5 assist over a 10 apg player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PPci3nXFoQ

He will be a top 10 player very soon, same thing with ingram he needs to get that melo jab though
you're doing a lot of math but you're missing the math that separates him from pretty much any pg that ever played assuming Zo keeps progressing.

Zo does something that other pgs only do or did(the greats) once in a while. and thats push the ball up the court without a lot of dribbles. my favorite pg and possibly my favorite player of all time Magic Johnson dribbled a lot. CP3 who i love. pounds the ball a lot. Jkidd was closer to zo's style of see it quickly and make that pass quickly. steve nash dribble a bit too much at times as well.

This is a thing with these super pg's. they dribble a lot until they see the perfect setup so they can pass that person the ball for the basket. ZO plays like a coach. If he sees a play before it happens. he will forward the ball up the court to another player who has the best angle for the next pass for the score, or he will fling it up court early directly to the streaking player. Zo does the first part in half court as well. If he knows the guy in the corner has a better angle. he wont dribble from the top to the corner and make the corner guy move out(cp3 does this, magic use to do this, nash would do this). Zo would just pass the ball quickly to the guy with the best angle to make the pass. Which means he will never get that assist aka hockey assist. This means whatever value you are drawing from assists per player will not give you Zo's true value. You have to include hockey assists. Zo can make an entire team of players assists go up because he will hit them where they have the perfect angle to hit a teammate. where in the past they had to create those situations on their own. now they no longer have to do that.

You can't put a weight on how freerer a team will play when the other guys dont have to worry about doing a lot to get other guys the ball. when a team also doesnt have to worry about if they are in the pg's way and if they need to clear out and kill off their chance of scoring or making a play for others. we dont know what level of impact that has on a team outside from watching Zo change UCLA's culture over night. then him doing the exact same thing with the summer league team over night and him doing it yet again with the lakers while he shot like crap. In theory I agree with you, regular pg's dont get it done. the problem is you forgot he's 6'6 to 6'7. he's not a regular pg. he's leaning towards magic's level due to the height. When you have a guy thats this tall with that kind of passing ability. he's no longer just a great passer. It means he can guard multiple positions but also cover a PF for a half a second on a bad switch and could possibly make the big mis and rebound the miss shot or sneak block the big(we've seen this from zo.)

Rondo was a good defender, so was Jkidd. cp3 is pretty good too. but those guys are 6'4 and shorter. as good as jkidd was, if he got switched onto a PF he was toast period. same with rondo, same with cp3. cp3 and rondo couldnt guard SF's at all. not guys that know how to score at least. Zo could due to his physical attributes. Zo is basically a SG/SF running point.
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venturalakersfan
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:14 am    Post subject:

lakersboy wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Which reflects the idea that winning a title wasn’t his highest priority. Players like Ball, Ingram and Kuzma are nowhere close to being starters on a title team.

That's your fan-based opinion. It's not LeBrons opinion.

Knowing LeBron for these past 15 years, he's not sitting at home saying "I can't win it." He's thinking "my work is going to be difficult us this year but we're going to give it our best and go for it. I think we can do this."


That isn’t exactly what he has said. It pretty much depends on what we do next offseason, Lebron was aware of that and apparently doesn’t have issues with it.
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watchME
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:37 am    Post subject:

Player A:

PPG: 16.7
RB: 6.2
APG: 6.3
STL: 1.9
BLK: 0.6
%FG: 40
%3: 23
%FT: 70

Player B:

PPG: 10.2
RB: 6.9
APG: 7.2
STL: 1.7
BLK: 0.8
%FG: 36
%3: 30
%FT: 45


Both in their rookie years, who do you take?
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governator
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:39 am    Post subject:

watchME wrote:
Player A:

PPG: 16.7
RB: 6.2
APG: 6.3
STL: 1.9
BLK: 0.6
%FG: 40
%3: 23
%FT: 70

Player B:

PPG: 10.2
RB: 6.9
APG: 7.2
STL: 1.7
BLK: 0.8
%FG: 36
%3: 30
%FT: 45


Both in their rookie years, who do you take?


A?
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epak
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
watchME wrote:
Player A:

PPG: 16.7
RB: 6.2
APG: 6.3
STL: 1.9
BLK: 0.6
%FG: 40
%3: 23
%FT: 70

Player B:

PPG: 10.2
RB: 6.9
APG: 7.2
STL: 1.7
BLK: 0.8
%FG: 36
%3: 30
%FT: 45


Both in their rookie years, who do you take?


A?


watchME thinks Lonzo is gonna have the MCW type of regression.
I actually thought MCW had a good rookie year. What happen?
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JerryMagicKobe
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:07 pm    Post subject:

watchME wrote:
Player A:

PPG: 16.7
RB: 6.2
APG: 6.3
STL: 1.9
BLK: 0.6
%FG: 40
%3: 23
%FT: 70

Player B:

PPG: 10.2
RB: 6.9
APG: 7.2
STL: 1.7
BLK: 0.8
%FG: 36
%3: 30
%FT: 45


Both in their rookie years, who do you take?

Zo is 2 years younger than MCW during their rookie years.
I'll take Zo.
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kikanga
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:17 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Players like Ball, Ingram and Kuzma are nowhere close to being starters on a title team.


If you swap Chalmers for Lonzo back when Lebron was winning chips in Miami. Sure they'd still win.
If Kuzma or Ingram started at the 3/4 for GS this upcoming season. They could win a chip.

But if you're talking about them as 3 pieces together in a championship starting lineup. Ya I agree. They aren't close. We'll see how much LBJ helps them though.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:21 pm    Post subject:

MCW was the rookie of the year in a draft that had Giannis and Oladipo. Philly only won 19 games with those stats still. Not even close to ZO's impact despite being older. I take ZO anyday.
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jg77
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:29 pm    Post subject:

Can Lonzo do anything that LeBron can't do?

I've been thinking our best lineup would be with Lonzo on the bench.

LeBron
Hart or KCP
Ingram
Kuzma
McGee

Play LeBron at PG.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:50 pm    Post subject:

jg77 wrote:
Can Lonzo do anything that LeBron can't do?


Play defense every possession.
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watchME
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:33 pm    Post subject:

KungPau wrote:
jg77 wrote:
Can Lonzo do anything that LeBron can't do?


Play defense every possession.


Hart can do that while being a %40+ 3pt shooter, and a great slasher.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:43 pm    Post subject:

watchME wrote:
KungPau wrote:
jg77 wrote:
Can Lonzo do anything that LeBron can't do?


Play defense every possession.


Hart can do that while being a %40+ 3pt shooter, and a great slasher.

Josh Hart falls asleep on defense way too often for that to be true.
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saetarubia
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:48 pm    Post subject:

What sort of argument is that? Can Ingram or Kuzma do anything Lebron can't? They are taller than ZO and yet he rebounded better. Lebron apparently wants to play off the ball a lot more than he used to as well. Also Lebron can't push the pace like ZO can.
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epak
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject:

saetarubia wrote:
What sort of argument is that? Can Ingram or Kuzma do anything Lebron can't? They are taller than ZO and yet he rebounded better. Lebron apparently wants to play off the ball a lot more than he used to as well. Also Lebron can't push the pace like ZO can.


Just remember. He's not trolling. He's just good at bad takes.
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LakesGnrLake
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:03 pm    Post subject:

watchME wrote:
Player A:

PPG: 16.7
RB: 6.2
APG: 6.3
STL: 1.9
BLK: 0.6
%FG: 40
%3: 23
%FT: 70

Player B:

PPG: 10.2
RB: 6.9
APG: 7.2
STL: 1.7
BLK: 0.8
%FG: 36
%3: 30
%FT: 45


Both in their rookie years, who do you take?


Could you post usage rates too?
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epak
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject:

LakesGnrLake wrote:
watchME wrote:
Player A:

PPG: 16.7
RB: 6.2
APG: 6.3
STL: 1.9
BLK: 0.6
%FG: 40
%3: 23
%FT: 70

Player B:

PPG: 10.2
RB: 6.9
APG: 7.2
STL: 1.7
BLK: 0.8
%FG: 36
%3: 30
%FT: 45


Both in their rookie years, who do you take?


Could you post usage rates too?


http://bkref.com/tiny/it85W

A: 25.7
B: 17.4
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:08 pm    Post subject:

epak wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
watchME wrote:
Player A:

PPG: 16.7
RB: 6.2
APG: 6.3
STL: 1.9
BLK: 0.6
%FG: 40
%3: 23
%FT: 70

Player B:

PPG: 10.2
RB: 6.9
APG: 7.2
STL: 1.7
BLK: 0.8
%FG: 36
%3: 30
%FT: 45


Both in their rookie years, who do you take?


Could you post usage rates too?


http://bkref.com/tiny/it85W

A: 25.7
B: 17.4


The best way to tell if anyone actually pays attention to the Lakers or Lonzo is if they say he needs the ball in his hands. I immediately ignore anything they have to say about the Lakers at that point. Lonzo is able to put up those offensive numbers with barely having the ball in his hands as a rookie. Ridiculous.
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PlantedTanks
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:30 pm    Post subject:

watchME wrote:
I hope this doesn't get taken out of context and labeled as trolling.

Stock & Kidd, Cp3, and Rondo combined for 63+ Seasons and only 2 rings which came at the end of Kidd's career as a ring chaser and Rondo with KG, Pierce, and Allen. Are we overvaluing Lonzo's skill set?


Assuming Lonzo reaches their status, we are betting on a %3.17 winning style.


Especially in an era of versatility and positionless basketball where everyone on the floor must be able to get you 3-5 assist per game. I feel like that skillset is overvalued. If you have a good system where you swing the ball around and always move the ball up in transition you will be fine as a passing team.


Give me Tatum's 24ppg in his prime with a 3-5 assist over a 10 apg player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PPci3nXFoQ

He will be a top 10 player very soon, same thing with ingram he needs to get that melo jab though


It's not really objective to pick out stats that fits a narrative. The following players would match Tatum's profile but I would not use at an indicator of his ultimate career.

Dominique Wilkins, Tracy McGrady, Carmelo Anthony. All dominant scorers. 45 seasons with 0 rings.

Your teammates obviously influences your ability to win championships and KD is the perfect example of this.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:45 pm    Post subject:

epak wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
watchME wrote:
Player A:

PPG: 16.7
RB: 6.2
APG: 6.3
STL: 1.9
BLK: 0.6
%FG: 40
%3: 23
%FT: 70

Player B:

PPG: 10.2
RB: 6.9
APG: 7.2
STL: 1.7
BLK: 0.8
%FG: 36
%3: 30
%FT: 45


Both in their rookie years, who do you take?


Could you post usage rates too?


http://bkref.com/tiny/it85W

A: 25.7
B: 17.4


rookie year:

MCW: 1.3 WS (despite playing 70 games)
-0.2 bpm
1.1 VORP
-3.05 RPM
-1.11 wins

Zo: 2.0 WS (only 52 games)
1.7 BPM
1.7 VORP
1.12 RPM
4.98 Wins
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watchME
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:45 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
watchME wrote:
I hope this doesn't get taken out of context and labeled as trolling.

Stock & Kidd, Cp3, and Rondo combined for 63+ Seasons and only 2 rings which came at the end of Kidd's career as a ring chaser and Rondo with KG, Pierce, and Allen. Are we overvaluing Lonzo's skill set?


Assuming Lonzo reaches their status, we are betting on a %3.17 winning style.


Especially in an era of versatility and positionless basketball where everyone on the floor must be able to get you 3-5 assist per game. I feel like that skillset is overvalued. If you have a good system where you swing the ball around and always move the ball up in transition you will be fine as a passing team.


Give me Tatum's 24ppg in his prime with a 3-5 assist over a 10 apg player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PPci3nXFoQ

He will be a top 10 player very soon, same thing with ingram he needs to get that melo jab though


It's not really objective to pick out stats that fits a narrative. The following players would match Tatum's profile but I would not use at an indicator of his ultimate career.

Dominique Wilkins, Tracy McGrady, Carmelo Anthony. All dominant scorers. 45 seasons with 0 rings.

Your teammates obviously influences your ability to win championships and KD is the perfect example of this.


Tracy Mcgrady and Carmelo Anthony wish they were as efficient as a 19-year-old Tatum was. Show me how many seasons those 2 had with a 58+ TS%. Quality over Quantity.

Tatum #26 in real plus-minus @ 19 years old.
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PlantedTanks
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:59 pm    Post subject:

watchME wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
watchME wrote:
I hope this doesn't get taken out of context and labeled as trolling.

Stock & Kidd, Cp3, and Rondo combined for 63+ Seasons and only 2 rings which came at the end of Kidd's career as a ring chaser and Rondo with KG, Pierce, and Allen. Are we overvaluing Lonzo's skill set?


Assuming Lonzo reaches their status, we are betting on a %3.17 winning style.


Especially in an era of versatility and positionless basketball where everyone on the floor must be able to get you 3-5 assist per game. I feel like that skillset is overvalued. If you have a good system where you swing the ball around and always move the ball up in transition you will be fine as a passing team.


Give me Tatum's 24ppg in his prime with a 3-5 assist over a 10 apg player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PPci3nXFoQ

He will be a top 10 player very soon, same thing with ingram he needs to get that melo jab though


It's not really objective to pick out stats that fits a narrative. The following players would match Tatum's profile but I would not use at an indicator of his ultimate career.

Dominique Wilkins, Tracy McGrady, Carmelo Anthony. All dominant scorers. 45 seasons with 0 rings.

Your teammates obviously influences your ability to win championships and KD is the perfect example of this.


Tracy Mcgrady and Carmelo Anthony wish they were as efficient as a 19-year-old Tatum was. Show me how many seasons those 2 had with a 58+ TS%. Quality over Quantity.


So you diminish the comparison based on TS%. Take a look at Kobe's stats. Hit 58 once and on a quick review is comparable to Melo's.

Kobe just happened to play with Shaq, Pau and other very good players.

Why didn't KD win in his first 9 seasons where he averaged over 60%?

The team and your teammates is the biggest influence who wins championships.

Stats are a simple means to prove a point but also to counter one.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:07 pm    Post subject:

I love how the lack of obvious stat-feeding talents make us sooooo underrated.

Amidst all the Lavar mumbo jumbo, and the injury, people outside of LA really don't get how special he is haha. Tatum is an awesome player but Lonzo is a step up in terms of potential and talent.

I expect at least 2 of em to break out this year. Kuz and BI were already on their way, and Hart looks like a $$$ Danny Green...

Lebron aint dumb lol. Magic sold him on the potential of dynasty when this young core pops and him at the helm, surpassing that who won't be mentioned .
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