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AFireInside619
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 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| I’m very sure if there’s an AD trade with Boston, Tatum would be the only untouchable. Kyrie, Hayward, Horford, Brown, Draft picks, would all be on the table. |
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Joe Pesci
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:22 am Post subject: |
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Ainge has been waiting on this for a while and the Celtics are struggling.
Ainge knows that a team with Irving, Davis, Hayward, Horford, and a pick or two is good enough to win rings. He’s not letting Tatum stand in the way of his golden goose.
Mark my words: Tatum, Brown, Smart, and two firsts will be Ainge’s offer.
That is, unless Davis asks out this year, and if Boston is even able to make an offer at all.
We’ll see.
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Pesci wrote: | That team has ALWAYS been poorly constructed.
This year, Randle isn’t a good fit next Davis, especially with Randle trying to get his next contract and doing his alpha-thing.
The Cousins pairing was sheer desperation, ever a good fit for winning, and even Holiday is really nothing more than a third, maybe fourth, best offensive option on a championship team.
Davis has never had a competent GM construct a team around him that optimally fits. The closest they came wasn’t last year after Cousins went down and they signed Miritic to go along with Rondo and Holiday ...
... then the dumb-ass Pels let Rondo go. Losing Rondo may have appeared to be an indiscriminate move, but Davis needs a true, unselfish PG to do his thing. Holiday ain’t that.
Sometimes a great player simply plays for an organization that is incapable of surrounding him with the proper pieces to win consistently. New Orleans with Davis is exhibit A.
To answer your question though: Kevin Love, Kevin Garnett, and Tracey McGrady in Orlando are examples of great players consistently playing on bad teams.
What’s the common denominator? Really bad front offices.
Don’t overthink this dude. Davis is a great, great player. Dare I say, dominant. He gets injured far too much and needs to take better care of his body I presume, but he is a great player nonetheless.
Hard for big men who aren’t “point forward” types to dominate this new NBA, but he manages to do it anyway. He needs a GM who knows what he’s doing.
Unfortunately for the Pels, they don’t have one, and fortunately for the Lakers they do. |
I'm not saying it can't work... I'm just bringing up devil's advocate points that pop into my head.
To sign him as a free agent is a no brainer... to give up four or five good assets is much less clear to me
It could be as much as Kuzma, Ingram, Lonzo, Hart, someone in our draft range like Konate, and a pick after next season.
If you take away Hart it gets better... if you take away Kuzma instead of Hart... better still... but for me it's just too much unless it was something like three pieces... but we know that doesn't get it done.
AD/Chandler
KD/Moe
LBJ/Svi
Minimum/Minimum
Bonga/Caruso
None of the big three can break a fingernail for this to work...
If they all play 75 games and the playoffs... then sure, they can win a title.
For maybe one or two years... and after his contract is up, LBJ needs to leave gracefully and not drag it out like Kobe and plug another star in his place.
It's possible it works... but I still think the two star plan plus the core is better.
Guess we'll soon find out what happens. |
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Joe Pesci
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:36 am Post subject: |
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Signing Davis as a free agent is not really an option, as far as I can tell.
I don’t see that transpiring at all. If the Lakers want him, they’ll, have to trade for him, Meat.
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Pesci wrote: | Signing Davis as a free agent is not really an option, as far as I can tell.
I don’t see that transpiring at all. If the Lakers want him, they’ll, have to trade for him, Meat. |
Oh, I realize that... I'm just stating my preference... but I will root for them either way. |
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Joe Pesci
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | Joe Pesci wrote: | That team has ALWAYS been poorly constructed.
This year, Randle isn’t a good fit next Davis, especially with Randle trying to get his next contract and doing his alpha-thing.
The Cousins pairing was sheer desperation, ever a good fit for winning, and even Holiday is really nothing more than a third, maybe fourth, best offensive option on a championship team.
Davis has never had a competent GM construct a team around him that optimally fits. The closest they came wasn’t last year after Cousins went down and they signed Miritic to go along with Rondo and Holiday ...
... then the dumb-ass Pels let Rondo go. Losing Rondo may have appeared to be an indiscriminate move, but Davis needs a true, unselfish PG to do his thing. Holiday ain’t that.
Sometimes a great player simply plays for an organization that is incapable of surrounding him with the proper pieces to win consistently. New Orleans with Davis is exhibit A.
To answer your question though: Kevin Love, Kevin Garnett, and Tracey McGrady in Orlando are examples of great players consistently playing on bad teams.
What’s the common denominator? Really bad front offices.
Don’t overthink this dude. Davis is a great, great player. Dare I say, dominant. He gets injured far too much and needs to take better care of his body I presume, but he is a great player nonetheless.
Hard for big men who aren’t “point forward” types to dominate this new NBA, but he manages to do it anyway. He needs a GM who knows what he’s doing.
Unfortunately for the Pels, they don’t have one, and fortunately for the Lakers they do. |
I'm not saying it can't work... I'm just bringing up devil's advocate points that pop into my head.
To sign him as a free agent is a no brainer... to give up four or five good assets is much less clear to me
It could be as much as Kuzma, Ingram, Lonzo, Hart, someone in our draft range like Konate, and a pick after next season.
If you take away Hart it gets better... if you take away Kuzma instead of Hart... better still... but for me it's just too much unless it was something like three pieces... but we know that doesn't get it done.
AD/Chandler
KD/Moe
LBJ/Svi
Minimum/Minimum
Bonga/Caruso
None of the big three can break a fingernail for this to work...
If they all play 75 games and the playoffs... then sure, they can win a title.
For maybe one or two years... and after his contract is up, LBJ needs to leave gracefully and not drag it out like Kobe and plug another star in his place.
It's possible it works... but I still think the two star plan plus the core is better.
Guess we'll soon find out what happens. |
Ring chasers are a real thing my man. You gotta accept that.
Ariza, Rondo, and Chandler are prime candidates. Why? They’re all approaching their mid thirties and want to win another ring. Ariza and Chandler grew up in the shadows of The Great Western Forum. L.A. is their home. And Rondo has at last found his proverbial basketball home.
Barring insane offers, those guys will really want to return back to the Lakers for a good chance at more rings.
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:47 am Post subject: |
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Pesci, I don't think Boston trades Tatum in an AD package. I just don't. That's number one. But even if they did--let's say I grant your point--then I think the Lakers are SOL, even if we offered all 3 of Ball/BI/Kuzma. I truly think that the Pelicans would value Tatum higher than getting all 3 of those guys from us. Tatum has the profile of a go-to scorer in this league and even after a bad start, look at his numbers now. Dude is a star.
For me, the bottom line is that if the Pels decided to make AD available, and if Boston offers Tatum, no one is beating that. Especially when you consider that Boston has picks to offer, too, even if those picks may have diminished value from what most thought they may have had before the season started. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Some of you still want to trade AD for the core?
AD scored 41 but was minus 18 in another loss. |
Yes. |
Core 52 pts 19 rebounds 5 assists plus win with no BI
AD 41 pts 7 rebounds 2 assists minus 18 with a loss |
So you're just aggregating 3-4 players' stats vs. 1 player and concluding something? Come on now.
What would it be with AD + leftover core?
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | But what does AD plus 3 mid-tier FAs playing with Lebron James score? |
What you'd need to do is take the average production of a minimum salary player... multiply by it by three and add it to ADs totals
We could win with AD/LBJ plus another elite player... but we'd have to rely on luck... someone like Bonga and Svi becoming starter or sixth man quality players... maybe an old vet blossoming like Derrick Rose.
I'm not saying it won't work... I'm saying we're better off signing a Tobias Harris or Middleton type and adding to the core... then putting all our eggs in one basket. |
You would have AD/LBJ plus cap space b/c you'd be theoretically sending out 15-18m in salary + cap space. So we'd still have a good chunk to spend on top FAs, the room exception, remaining young core players, 2019 pick, and veteran ring chasers.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Pesci wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Joe Pesci wrote: | To Jesus: It would DEFINITELY require all three of Kuzma, Ingram, and Ball.
To Meat: Durant would still be a possibility, even with Davis already traded for, so “window” could be open for a good long while. |
If we had AD or Kawhi locked down... I could see it working... but the window would be short and very dependent on AD's health and LBJ's resistance to age.
I'd still be enthusiastic about our team... but I'd be very worried about the slightest thing going wrong.
Look how resilient this team is... we lose two starter quality players and don't miss a beat.
If any of those three were hurt or if LBJ got old... we'd be in Dwightmare land right quick. |
I got Rondo, Ariza, Beasley, and Chandler signing back on for the minimum if the Lakers get Davis and Durant:
PG - James - Rondo
SG - ??? - Mykhailiuk
C - Davis - Chandler
PF - Durant - Beasley
SF - Ariza
Fill the vacated SG spot with the room exception: (someone who can shoot and guard PGs) ... Ellington, Hood, Lamb, Holiday, T. Evans, Beverley, T. Ross, Curry, Stauskus, or Rivers.
Any one of these guys would jump at the chance to become the starting SG on a team with James, Davis, and Durant. I’d lean towards Rivers, Ellington, Beverley, Curry, or Holiday. If he knows his role, Rivers is most qualified. |
Yeah. Quality trumps quantity at the Finals level. A LBJ/KD/AD trio will win rings, even with less than stellar role players around them.
For ever 2011 Dallas championship team, the Shaq/Kobe, TD/KL, HEATLES, Warriors, even LBJ/Love/Kyrie teams win more with elite quality top talent.
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RI Laker
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Trading for AD will clearly be a secondary/follow up move for us. |
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jg77
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:07 am Post subject: |
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Do we have even have enough assets to get AD?
With Miami struggling this year do you guys think they would trade Josh Richardson? I think we always get caught up in the big names but a Zo/Richardson back court would work nicely with LeBron/Kuz. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| jg77 wrote: | Do we have even have enough assets to get AD?
With Miami struggling this year do you guys think they would trade Josh Richardson? I think we always get caught up in the big names but a Zo/Richardson back court would work nicely with LeBron/Kuz. |
Doesn't his deal eat into the 2019 max cap space? If so, not happening.
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jg77
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | jg77 wrote: | Do we have even have enough assets to get AD?
With Miami struggling this year do you guys think they would trade Josh Richardson? I think we always get caught up in the big names but a Zo/Richardson back court would work nicely with LeBron/Kuz. |
Doesn't his deal eat into the 2019 max cap space? If so, not happening. |
Probably as he would be a plan c. I don't think we get KL or KD though. |
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Super Mega Team
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:13 am Post subject: |
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The Celtics can’t trade for Anthony Davis this season with Kyrie Irving on the roster.
Why is this? Because the Celtics previously traded for Kyrie Irving. Both Davis and Irving signed contract extensions under the “5th Year 30% Max Criteria”, which is informally known as the Rose Rule (as Derrick Rose was the first player to sign such an extension), and currently known as the Designated Player Rookie Extension. This rule allows a player coming off their rookie scale contract to sign an extension that allows them to skip the 1-6 years of service 25% max salary tier and go immediately to the 7-9 years of service 30% max salary tier. To get there, players have to meet certain criteria. When Davis and Irving signed their extensions, it was based on MVP awards, All-NBA selections and being voted in as All-Star starters. The Designated Player criteria now is based on winning MVP, Defensive Player of the Year, or All-NBA selections.
Why does this mean Boston can’t acquire Davis? NBA teams are prevented from acquiring two such players via trade at the same time. The idea behind this rule was to keep teams from stacking their rosters via trades to acquire multiple All-NBA talents. Because the Celtics already traded for Irving, they can’t trade for another player who signed the same type of extension.
Once Irving opts out of his current deal, they can trade for him. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| jg77 wrote: | Do we have even have enough assets to get AD?
. |
Other teams have more to offer, mainly future draft picks.
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lakerican
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | jg77 wrote: | Do we have even have enough assets to get AD?
With Miami struggling this year do you guys think they would trade Josh Richardson? I think we always get caught up in the big names but a Zo/Richardson back court would work nicely with LeBron/Kuz. |
Doesn't his deal eat into the 2019 max cap space? If so, not happening. |
Yinoma,
If KD stays, in GS or go to NY,
If KL stays n Toronto or go to Clippers
IF KWalker stays in Charlotte or go let's say Phoenix
If KMiddleton stays in Milwakee or go lets say Brookllyn
Then we will have to trade for a star or near star and do what we did with RHibbert, eat some of our capspace with the trade.
hint. That star or near star can be Anthony Davis, BBeal, DLlilard, CMcCollum.
Last edited by lakerican on Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| lakerican wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | jg77 wrote: | Do we have even have enough assets to get AD?
With Miami struggling this year do you guys think they would trade Josh Richardson? I think we always get caught up in the big names but a Zo/Richardson back court would work nicely with LeBron/Kuz. |
Doesn't his deal eat into the 2019 max cap space? If so, not happening. |
Yinoma,
If KD stays, in GS or go to NY,
If KL stays n Toronto or go to Clippers
IF KWalker stays in Charlotte or go let's say Phoenix
If KMiddleton stays in Milwakee or go lets say Brookllyn
Then we will have to trade for a star or near star and do what we did with RHibbert, eat some of our capspace with the trade.
hint. That star can be Anthony Davis |
But you don't trade for a guy right now who eats into a 2019 max FA.
If we fail on any meaningful FAs (I doubt that, at worst we get a Tier B FA IMO in Middleton, Kemba, Tobias), then yes.
But we're not blowing up our 2019 max FA slot for Josh Richardson, especially when we're 17-10 right now.
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Jesusdelonla
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | jg77 wrote: | Do we have even have enough assets to get AD?
. |
Other teams have more to offer, mainly future draft picks. |
Let's hear some names instead of blanket statements.
Which team had better package then Bi+ so+ Wagner once he requests a trade. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | lakerican wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | jg77 wrote: | Do we have even have enough assets to get AD?
With Miami struggling this year do you guys think they would trade Josh Richardson? I think we always get caught up in the big names but a Zo/Richardson back court would work nicely with LeBron/Kuz. |
Doesn't his deal eat into the 2019 max cap space? If so, not happening. |
Yinoma,
If KD stays, in GS or go to NY,
If KL stays n Toronto or go to Clippers
IF KWalker stays in Charlotte or go let's say Phoenix
If KMiddleton stays in Milwakee or go lets say Brookllyn
Then we will have to trade for a star or near star and do what we did with RHibbert, eat some of our capspace with the trade.
hint. That star can be Anthony Davis |
But you don't trade for a guy right now who eats into a 2019 max FA.
If we fail on any meaningful FAs (I doubt that, at worst we get a Tier B FA IMO in Middleton, Kemba, Tobias), then yes.
But we're not blowing up our 2019 max FA slot for Josh Richardson, especially when we're 17-10 right now. |
Not to mention, why would Miami want to move him? For what he gives you, he's on a very cap friendly contract. So you'll have to overpay to get him. |
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scoobs
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | I'm on record as saying I'd trade virtually everyone for AD, but I'm not sure that the Lakers are going to trade Kuzma. He's been a part of LeBron's posse this offseason, if I'm not mistaken, hanging out with him, and our owner, Jeanie Buss, loves him. He simply may be one of LeBron's guys and given the chemistry that the two are showing, given Kuzma's newfound defensive commitment, and given that he's easily our second-best natural scorer, I'm just not sure that we will trade him. I think the Lakers would give up Ball, Ingram, Hart, Wagner, the necessary salary filler, and multiple 1st's.
Now, if they say we have to have Kuzma (plus Lonzo and BI), but you can keep Hart, take it or leave it? Would be an interesting call. |
Kuz is the last young player that I want to trade but you have to give up something to get something though. |
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Jesusdelonla
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | Jesusdelonla wrote: |
It's not about me but the fact that u can't answer my questions? |
No seriously, I've had enough... you're the one who plays games with your answers. At least some others I argue with make some good points, but I don't think I've ever gotten anything from you other than rude, incoherent responses.
Either answer the questions directly or move on please. |
I dont think i am playing any games. You start of with 2 young core then you change to 3 then to 4 and then to 5 young guys involved in the trade.
if I say boss keep kuzma and trade others, you come back and say they are most definitely going to ask Kuzma. same goes for BI or Zo or even hart.
Once thats done and we have KD and AD, you then go into the 4 vs 4 play where you have on purpose guys like swaggy P and Jamal Crowford on the other team to make a point.
you still have to answer me why rondo cant sign for room exception?
you also havent answer me why we cant sign ring chasers for vet minimum? D West gave up 9mil to sign with a contender. Zaza gave up 6m to sign with a contender.
after all this i am suppose to provide you with depth chart? there are millions of variable that can go on. so I am not going to put guys like Swaggy/Crowford to make my point.
you are failing to understand that we still will have room exception and can sign ring chasers to vet min contract. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| Jesusdelonla wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Jesusdelonla wrote: |
It's not about me but the fact that u can't answer my questions? |
No seriously, I've had enough... you're the one who plays games with your answers. At least some others I argue with make some good points, but I don't think I've ever gotten anything from you other than rude, incoherent responses.
Either answer the questions directly or move on please. |
I dont think i am playing any games. You start of with 2 young core then you change to 3 then to 4 and then to 5 young guys involved in the trade.
if I say boss keep kuzma and trade others, you come back and say they are most definitely going to ask Kuzma. same goes for BI or Zo or even hart.
Once thats done and we have KD and AD, you then go into the 4 vs 4 play where you have on purpose guys like swaggy P and Jamal Crowford on the other team to make a point.
you still have to answer me why rondo cant sign for room exception?
you also havent answer me why we cant sign ring chasers for vet minimum? D West gave up 9mil to sign with a contender. Zaza gave up 6m to sign with a contender.
after all this i am suppose to provide you with depth chart? there are millions of variable that can go on. so I am not going to put guys like Swaggy/Crowford to make my point.
you are failing to understand that we still will have room exception and can sign ring chasers to vet min contract. |
Hey...we could get IT for the minimum!!!! 
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: |
Hey...we could get IT for the minimum!!!! |
As I said... the three star team can work.
Having 3 of the top 5 players on one team can't help but be great.
The problem is that one of the 3 will be 35 by the end of next season... one is chronically injured... one gets butthurt all the time.
Yes, all the stars can align and Svi and Bonga develop super fast... we keep one of Hart or Kuzma... we convince Rondo to sign for the exception... Chandler and Ariza sign for the minimum
and we end up with
AD/Chandler
KD/Moe
LBJ/Ariza
Hart/Svi
Rondo/Bonga
That is a championship team... but everything needs to happen perfectly
None of the big three can get hurt
Rondo must sign for the room exception and refuse all offers
Ariza must sign for the minimum
NO has to be satisfied with only 3 of the core and not want Moe
Bonga and Svi must be ready by next year (possible... I like both)
LBJ must age only slightly and be willing to leave as soon as he declines
If all those elements converge... we would be the favorites to win for two years... longer if LBJ leaves as soon as he declines significantly
The other path
McGee/Chandler
KD/Kuzma
LBJ/Ariza/Svi
Ingram/Hart
Lonzo/Rondo/Bonga
Much more achievable and already capable of 60 plus wins with the addition of KD. We are already on a 52 game pace with all our injuries and suspensions and the adjustments to a new team!
I'll admit the sentimental side of me prefers the second scenario... but I'll still be excited to see the superteam if we can get those ring chasers to sign for nothing.
The benefit to the second team as we already have seen is that it is younger... it's more impervious to injury... (we lost Ingram and Rondo and we didn't miss a beat)
Snarky people will say that's because they aren't that good... but it's because our team is deep.
AD is exciting... the second scenario is more realistic and more impervious to injury. It also has a longer window of success.
You joke about IT... but he would have been useful as a backup scorer in the playoffs... and we better hope we don't see him with Denver's deep team either. We will need that type of fluke signing to succeed with the superteam. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:28 am Post subject: |
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There is a possibility we won't be able to trade for AD, so I'm not tripping at all about whether we get AD or don't (but get a max FA and keep young assets to keep long term or trade for another).
IT? We just need to move on man. I have 0% concerns about him on Denver. I'm more worried about Jokic than IT who may not even play this year.
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