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Inspector Gadget
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 Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Unlikely we can get Rudy Gay unless it’s on a buyout, the Spurs will ask for Josh Hart or another young player because they hate us just like the Suns, Don’t think Hood wants to play with LeBron so we might end up with Carroll or Ellington. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Jesusdelonla wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Put simply, I don't think the 76ers would include Ben in a trade for AD. Would we include BI? Of course. Who do you think the Pels would want as a centerpiece b/w Ben and BI? I don't think that's a difficult question.
But this says a lot more about how bullish I am about Ben. BI just isn't as polished now. Could he become that later? Maybe. But now? Not close. |
Yuck for embiid/AD front court |
Yuck as in, it's over for the NBA.
But my point is that Pels would take Ben 100/100 times over BI in any trade scenario.
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
But the logical fallacy is assuming that Ben won't continue outpacing BI in terms of improvement. In 3 years I'd expect Ben to reach even a higher level (and BI too). But baseline wise, it's not close IMO. Ben's floor and ceiling remain higher than BI right now IMO. |
Which do you think is more likely?
That BI gets stronger and finds his way more easily to the rim?
Or that Ben becomes a good shooter?
I ask this because Ben's game is complete in most aspects... I don't think he will start getting 15 assists and 15 rebounds per game... but I do believe BI will end up averaging over 20.
If Ben develops a shot... he will become one of the greatest players of all time.
I thought he'd make some progress forward but he didn't.
To be fair to you, I thought BI would make more progress as well, and he hasn't.
I just think Ben has hit his peak and BI hasn't... but sure, I'll allow it's possible he can get better... I'm just not sure where that would be when he's already elite at rebounding and playmaking.
Ingram on the other hand, I can see going up significantly as a scorer. |
BI can improve on those areas and Ben can still be better without a jumper.
He's an elite playmaker/passer, good rebounder, and a good defender already. He's physically miles ahead of BI. So BI improving in certain areas would still leave him trailing Ben IMO.
And how does Ben at age 22 "hit his peak" already?  |
Once you hit certain benchmarks... 30 points... 15 rebounds... 10 assists...
you can't get any better.
Ben already has peaked at rebounding and assists for a playmaker...
It's possible he becomes a 12 assist per game player... but I think 9 maybe 10 will be his peak... not because he isn't capable of more... but because he's already so damn high.
A great player like KD hits 30 PPG early in his career and pretty much stays there. It's not like he keeps going up until he get 40 points or 50 points a game.
I see Ben peaking as a 18 to 20 PPG player with 9 to 10 assists, 9 RPG... and that's already brilliant. Unless he redefines what players do... that is most likely where he will stay. The only hole in his game is shooting, and if he fixes that... he's better than everyone.
The question is whether BI can get to 23-25 points... with 6-7 RPG and 4 or 5 assists.
At that point Ben is probably still better... but it's no longer an absurd comparison.
Maybe you think that ceiling is impossible for BI... but I don't. |
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2019
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| 32 wrote: | | I think the Pelicans will pull out all the stops to try to appease Davis by the trade deadline. I think they'll try to trade for an All-Star. I think they are going to need a good playoff run. |
They already tried with Jimmy but I agree... they’re going to be as aggressive as possible in acquiring talent to keep him in NO for the long haul. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
But the logical fallacy is assuming that Ben won't continue outpacing BI in terms of improvement. In 3 years I'd expect Ben to reach even a higher level (and BI too). But baseline wise, it's not close IMO. Ben's floor and ceiling remain higher than BI right now IMO. |
Which do you think is more likely?
That BI gets stronger and finds his way more easily to the rim?
Or that Ben becomes a good shooter?
I ask this because Ben's game is complete in most aspects... I don't think he will start getting 15 assists and 15 rebounds per game... but I do believe BI will end up averaging over 20.
If Ben develops a shot... he will become one of the greatest players of all time.
I thought he'd make some progress forward but he didn't.
To be fair to you, I thought BI would make more progress as well, and he hasn't.
I just think Ben has hit his peak and BI hasn't... but sure, I'll allow it's possible he can get better... I'm just not sure where that would be when he's already elite at rebounding and playmaking.
Ingram on the other hand, I can see going up significantly as a scorer. |
BI can improve on those areas and Ben can still be better without a jumper.
He's an elite playmaker/passer, good rebounder, and a good defender already. He's physically miles ahead of BI. So BI improving in certain areas would still leave him trailing Ben IMO.
And how does Ben at age 22 "hit his peak" already? |
Once you hit certain benchmarks... 30 points... 15 rebounds... 10 assists...
you can't get any better.
Ben already has peaked at rebounding and assists for a playmaker...
It's possible he becomes a 12 assist per game player... but I think 9 maybe 10 will be his peak... not because he isn't capable of more... but because he's already so damn high.
A great player like KD hits 30 PPG early in his career and pretty much stays there. It's not like he keeps going up until he get 40 points or 50 points a game.
I see Ben peaking as a 18 to 20 PPG player with 9 to 10 assists, 9 RPG... and that's already brilliant. Unless he redefines what players do... that is most likely where he will stay. The only hole in his game is shooting, and if he fixes that... he's better than everyone.
The question is whether BI can get to 23-25 points... with 6-7 RPG and 4 or 5 assists.
At that point Ben is probably still better... but it's no longer an absurd comparison.
Maybe you think that ceiling is impossible for BI... but I don't. |
That's a misguided approach to the term "peak." If he sustains similar counting stats, but improves on efficiency and other +/- stats, it shouldn't be counted against him. He will improve his counting stats IMO That just means he's hitting ridiculous counting numbers from the get go. So his floor is his ceiling is your argument.
For the record, his other areas ARE improving and will likely continue to:
FG: 57.8 (54.5 last year)
2P%: 57.8 (55.1)
eFG: 57.8 (54.5)
TS%: 59 (55.7)
FTr: 45.7 (34.2).
These numbers tell me he's working on offensive efficiency even in the absence of a jumper and will likely get better too.
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saetarubia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| 2019 wrote: | | 32 wrote: | | I think the Pelicans will pull out all the stops to try to appease Davis by the trade deadline. I think they'll try to trade for an All-Star. I think they are going to need a good playoff run. |
They already tried with Jimmy but I agree... they’re going to be as aggressive as possible in acquiring talent to keep him in NO for the long haul. |
No all star is available especially for what they can give in return. Already tried that with Cousins trade which Sac won with Buddy H.
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epak
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
But the logical fallacy is assuming that Ben won't continue outpacing BI in terms of improvement. In 3 years I'd expect Ben to reach even a higher level (and BI too). But baseline wise, it's not close IMO. Ben's floor and ceiling remain higher than BI right now IMO. |
Which do you think is more likely?
That BI gets stronger and finds his way more easily to the rim?
Or that Ben becomes a good shooter?
I ask this because Ben's game is complete in most aspects... I don't think he will start getting 15 assists and 15 rebounds per game... but I do believe BI will end up averaging over 20.
If Ben develops a shot... he will become one of the greatest players of all time.
I thought he'd make some progress forward but he didn't.
To be fair to you, I thought BI would make more progress as well, and he hasn't.
I just think Ben has hit his peak and BI hasn't... but sure, I'll allow it's possible he can get better... I'm just not sure where that would be when he's already elite at rebounding and playmaking.
Ingram on the other hand, I can see going up significantly as a scorer. |
BI can improve on those areas and Ben can still be better without a jumper.
He's an elite playmaker/passer, good rebounder, and a good defender already. He's physically miles ahead of BI. So BI improving in certain areas would still leave him trailing Ben IMO.
And how does Ben at age 22 "hit his peak" already? |
Once you hit certain benchmarks... 30 points... 15 rebounds... 10 assists...
you can't get any better.
Ben already has peaked at rebounding and assists for a playmaker...
It's possible he becomes a 12 assist per game player... but I think 9 maybe 10 will be his peak... not because he isn't capable of more... but because he's already so damn high.
A great player like KD hits 30 PPG early in his career and pretty much stays there. It's not like he keeps going up until he get 40 points or 50 points a game.
I see Ben peaking as a 18 to 20 PPG player with 9 to 10 assists, 9 RPG... and that's already brilliant. Unless he redefines what players do... that is most likely where he will stay. The only hole in his game is shooting, and if he fixes that... he's better than everyone.
The question is whether BI can get to 23-25 points... with 6-7 RPG and 4 or 5 assists.
At that point Ben is probably still better... but it's no longer an absurd comparison.
Maybe you think that ceiling is impossible for BI... but I don't. |
That's a misguided approach to the term "peak." If he sustains similar counting stats, but improves on efficiency and other +/- stats, it shouldn't be counted against him. He will improve his counting stats IMO That just means he's hitting ridiculous counting numbers from the get go. So his floor is his ceiling is your argument.
For the record, his other areas ARE improving and will likely continue to:
FG: 57.8 (54.5 last year)
2P%: 57.8 (55.1)
eFG: 57.8 (54.5)
TS%: 59 (55.7)
FTr: 45.7 (34.2).
These numbers tell me he's working on offensive efficiency even in the absence of a jumper and will likely get better too. |
True.
Also his reb rate is slightly higher.
Ast%, Blk%, USG% all slightly lower.
TO% slightly higher.
Hopefully with Butler there, all his numbers slip  |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
But the logical fallacy is assuming that Ben won't continue outpacing BI in terms of improvement. In 3 years I'd expect Ben to reach even a higher level (and BI too). But baseline wise, it's not close IMO. Ben's floor and ceiling remain higher than BI right now IMO. |
Which do you think is more likely?
That BI gets stronger and finds his way more easily to the rim?
Or that Ben becomes a good shooter?
I ask this because Ben's game is complete in most aspects... I don't think he will start getting 15 assists and 15 rebounds per game... but I do believe BI will end up averaging over 20.
If Ben develops a shot... he will become one of the greatest players of all time.
I thought he'd make some progress forward but he didn't.
To be fair to you, I thought BI would make more progress as well, and he hasn't.
I just think Ben has hit his peak and BI hasn't... but sure, I'll allow it's possible he can get better... I'm just not sure where that would be when he's already elite at rebounding and playmaking.
Ingram on the other hand, I can see going up significantly as a scorer. |
BI can improve on those areas and Ben can still be better without a jumper.
He's an elite playmaker/passer, good rebounder, and a good defender already. He's physically miles ahead of BI. So BI improving in certain areas would still leave him trailing Ben IMO.
And how does Ben at age 22 "hit his peak" already? |
Once you hit certain benchmarks... 30 points... 15 rebounds... 10 assists...
you can't get any better.
Ben already has peaked at rebounding and assists for a playmaker...
It's possible he becomes a 12 assist per game player... but I think 9 maybe 10 will be his peak... not because he isn't capable of more... but because he's already so damn high.
A great player like KD hits 30 PPG early in his career and pretty much stays there. It's not like he keeps going up until he get 40 points or 50 points a game.
I see Ben peaking as a 18 to 20 PPG player with 9 to 10 assists, 9 RPG... and that's already brilliant. Unless he redefines what players do... that is most likely where he will stay. The only hole in his game is shooting, and if he fixes that... he's better than everyone.
The question is whether BI can get to 23-25 points... with 6-7 RPG and 4 or 5 assists.
At that point Ben is probably still better... but it's no longer an absurd comparison.
Maybe you think that ceiling is impossible for BI... but I don't. |
That's a misguided approach to the term "peak." If he sustains similar counting stats, but improves on efficiency and other +/- stats, it shouldn't be counted against him. He will improve his counting stats IMO That just means he's hitting ridiculous counting numbers from the get go. So his floor is his ceiling is your argument.
For the record, his other areas ARE improving and will likely continue to:
FG: 57.8 (54.5 last year)
2P%: 57.8 (55.1)
eFG: 57.8 (54.5)
TS%: 59 (55.7)
FTr: 45.7 (34.2).
These numbers tell me he's working on offensive efficiency even in the absence of a jumper and will likely get better too. |
True.
Also his reb rate is slightly higher.
Ast%, Blk%, USG% all slightly lower.
TO% slightly higher.
Hopefully with Butler there, all his numbers slip |
Yeah, the "but we have LBJ eating everything" arguments fail when you look up the usage rates of Embiid/Jimmy. Those guys eat EVERYTHING.
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socalsp3
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Austin Rivers waived. May be a good pickup for PG depth |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| socalsp3 wrote: | | Austin Rivers waived. May be a good pickup for PG depth |
Austin Rivers got traded?! |
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drae
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| socalsp3 wrote: | | Austin Rivers waived. May be a good pickup for PG depth |
HA! Good one. You're a funny guy |
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32
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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@ShamsCharania
Four to five other teams are still expressing interest in Rivers, sources said. No formal offer yet from Memphis, with several days until Rivers clears waivers
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Nobody in the NBA can touch the Laker brand, which, like the uniform color, is pure gold. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| 32 wrote: | | I wouldn't underestimate the power of AD moving to Klutch sports. Let's say this summer NO is entertaining offers for AD. If Rich Paul tells Ainge or any other team for that matter his client wants to play for the Lakers and he will walk as a free agent what does Ainge do? Does he roll the dice and do it anyways hoping he will change his mind? |
Did OKC? Did Toronto? The Lakers will only be able to sign AD if they strike out in free agency and let Ingram walk. I doubt a threat like that scares teams away.
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The Juggernaut
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Hell no to signing Austin Rivers. He fails both the analytics assessment and the eye test. |
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PengShow
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | Put simply, I don't think the 76ers would include Ben in a trade for AD. Would we include BI? Of course. Who do you think the Pels would want as a centerpiece b/w Ben and BI? I don't think that's a difficult question.
But this says a lot more about how bullish I am about Ben. BI just isn't as polished now. Could he become that later? Maybe. But now? Not close. |
Ben in 1 season and however many games he has played this season has already done more than BI has in his stint.
The only area in which BI has the edge is outside shooting if we can even call BI an outside shooter given his stuggles.
You do make a good point though about the Sixers not making him available in ANY trade. Magic & Pelinka would jettison BI the minute they can get their hands on AD. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| PengShow wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Put simply, I don't think the 76ers would include Ben in a trade for AD. Would we include BI? Of course. Who do you think the Pels would want as a centerpiece b/w Ben and BI? I don't think that's a difficult question.
But this says a lot more about how bullish I am about Ben. BI just isn't as polished now. Could he become that later? Maybe. But now? Not close. |
Ben in 1 season and however many games he has played this season has already done more than BI has in his stint.
The only area in which BI has the edge is outside shooting if we can even call BI an outside shooter given his stuggles.
You do make a good point though about the Sixers not making him available in ANY trade. Magic & Pelinka would jettison BI the minute they can get their hands on AD. |
My point is to illustrate what a stud Ben is, not necessarily to say BI is worthless. I think BI is worth investing in and seeing if we can make him fit. But vis a vis Ben, not close to me.
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PHILosophize
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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If I'm the Sixers I would definitely trade Ben for AD in a vacuum. Problem is they need the salaries to match and that just seems unreasonable given Philly's lack of depth as it is.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| PHILosophize wrote: | | If I'm the Sixers I would definitely trade Ben for AD in a vacuum. Problem is they need the salaries to match and that just seems unreasonable given Philly's lack of depth as it is. |
They have less of a need for AD than we do.
Would you trade BI for Ben straight up?
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: |
That's a misguided approach to the term "peak." If he sustains similar counting stats, but improves on efficiency and other +/- stats, it shouldn't be counted against him. He will improve his counting stats IMO That just means he's hitting ridiculous counting numbers from the get go. So his floor is his ceiling is your argument.
For the record, his other areas ARE improving and will likely continue to:
FG: 57.8 (54.5 last year)
2P%: 57.8 (55.1)
eFG: 57.8 (54.5)
TS%: 59 (55.7)
FTr: 45.7 (34.2).
These numbers tell me he's working on offensive efficiency even in the absence of a jumper and will likely get better too. |
All that he does is lay up or dunk the ball with a few floaters.
Same for Giannis.
An extremely important skill that Shaq made an spectacular career from but still limited.
Kuzma is an example of someone doing the same thing right now.
KK's outside shot has failed him, but he's making up for it with an assortment of floaters, hooks and nice short range moves that has fortunately offset his struggles from three this season.
So your stats are essentially one important skill restated in four different ways.
Again... no dispute that Ben is the better player... the question that remains is whether BI can get in on that efficient scoring from short range.
He shot 67% inside of three feet last season... he's since been forced outside because of playing with McGee, LBJ, and Kuzma.
This is only 5% difference from where Ben is right now.
IF BI gets his short range efficiency to over 70%... improves his foul shot over 70% he becomes as dangerous as Simmons because he shoots FT better.
I get that these are a lot of IFs... and by no means guaranteed to happen... but it's much more likely BI can get over 70% from close range than for Ben to become a good midrange or long range shooter.
All Giannis does is score 80% from close range... Offensively, he does nothing else.
What Ingram does from midrange and potentially from three will make him more versatile.
I can see him eventually able to score from close range and consistently get off his shot... some of you can't.
We shall see what happens. |
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PHILosophize
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | PHILosophize wrote: | | If I'm the Sixers I would definitely trade Ben for AD in a vacuum. Problem is they need the salaries to match and that just seems unreasonable given Philly's lack of depth as it is. |
They have less of a need for AD than we do.
Would you trade BI for Ben straight up? |
True – they just need some depth.
I would absolutely trade BI for Ben straight up. He wouldn't be the best fit with Lebron either but Ben's value has to be way higher than BI's right now (so we could flip him later if need be). I think the question is how much more, in addition to BI, would it take to get Philly to agree to that.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
That's a misguided approach to the term "peak." If he sustains similar counting stats, but improves on efficiency and other +/- stats, it shouldn't be counted against him. He will improve his counting stats IMO That just means he's hitting ridiculous counting numbers from the get go. So his floor is his ceiling is your argument.
For the record, his other areas ARE improving and will likely continue to:
FG: 57.8 (54.5 last year)
2P%: 57.8 (55.1)
eFG: 57.8 (54.5)
TS%: 59 (55.7)
FTr: 45.7 (34.2).
These numbers tell me he's working on offensive efficiency even in the absence of a jumper and will likely get better too. |
All that he does is lay up or dunk the ball with a few floaters.
Same for Giannis.
An extremely important skill that Shaq made an spectacular career from but still limited.
Kuzma is an example of someone doing the same thing right now.
KK's outside shot has failed him, but he's making up for it with an assortment of floaters, hooks and nice short range moves that has fortunately offset his struggles from three this season.
So your stats are essentially one important skill restated in four different ways.
Again... no dispute that Ben is the better player... the question that remains is whether BI can get in on that efficient scoring from short range.
He shot 67% inside of three feet last season... he's since been forced outside because of playing with McGee, LBJ, and Kuzma.
This is only 5% difference from where Ben is right now.
IF BI gets his short range efficiency to over 70%... improves his foul shot over 70% he becomes as dangerous as Simmons because he shoots FT better.
I get that these are a lot of IFs... and by no means guaranteed to happen... but it's much more likely BI can get over 70% from close range than for Ben to become a good midrange or long range shooter.
All Giannis does is score 80% from close range... Offensively, he does nothing else.
What Ingram does from midrange and potentially from three will make him more versatile.
I can see him eventually able to score from close range and consistently get off his shot... some of you can't.
We shall see what happens. |
Ben is already "there" and will get better.
You're still hoping BI in a few year gets to where Ben has already been and will grow from.
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: |
Ben is already "there" and will get better.
You're still hoping BI in a few year gets to where Ben has already been and will grow from. |
To wrap up my thoughts in a nutshell... it's easier for BI to gain the ability and strength to score more consistently inside than for Ben to score from distance.
Ben is already there as you say... but when BI gets there he will have both close range and long range skills in his tool box. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
Ben is already "there" and will get better.
You're still hoping BI in a few year gets to where Ben has already been and will grow from. |
To wrap up my thoughts in a nutshell... it's easier for BI to gain the ability and strength to score more consistently inside than for Ben to score from distance.
Ben is already there as you say... but when BI gets there he will have both close range and long range skills in his tool box. |
But that assumes Ben needs to have long range skills. He may not need it.
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Hero Ball
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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Is Jimmy Butler or Kemba realistic targets next year or would we just hold on to the cap space?
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Trade AD now. |
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PengShow
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
Ben is already "there" and will get better.
You're still hoping BI in a few year gets to where Ben has already been and will grow from. |
To wrap up my thoughts in a nutshell... it's easier for BI to gain the ability and strength to score more consistently inside than for Ben to score from distance.
Ben is already there as you say... but when BI gets there he will have both close range and long range skills in his tool box. |
Ben does all the other things that BI doesn't do though.
He rebounds the ball for one and can pass it like no other, Ben is a more complete player right now than BI is and he's only 1 year older than him. |
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