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Four Decade Bandwagon
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 Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | epic_ wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Pels will be an interesting place this summer. Will they go status quo and keep everyone to build around Zion? (Doubtful IMO).
I think they will package our picks and maybe some of our baby Lakers to go after someone like Beal. I think there is some Zion resentment, that he's getting all the adulation while guys like BI are putting in the work. |
It'll depend on if Zion can be more than half man, half a season. |
The health of Zion will be key. If he can remain healthy it changes the team significantly. And if they ever find a coach that will stress and the overall will to play defense they could be an interesting team for the next 5 years as all the young players develop or they bring in some vets as suggested.
They learn how to win and they could be a consistent playoff team. Whether that translates into a "contender" could be entertaining.
Just looked up their picks. Did not realize they had Cleveland's 1st this year, except it is protected top 10! That has to hurt. Getting two future 2nds just isnt the same. lol
Brutal that the Lakers picks have no protections. Sort of?
- 2021- Lakers 1st (protected 8-30 in 2021, unprotected in 2022)
- 2023 right to swap 1st picks
- 2024 - right to Lakers 1st or choose to take 2025 1st instead. (Dangerous if post James is a rebuild) |
So, in essence, the Lakers will have a #1 in 2020, a#1 in 2021, a #1 in 2023 and a #1 in either 2024 or 2025.
As long as AD comes back, that deal looks pretty good for us. |
We shall have to wait and see. Basically comes down to "do the Lakers win a ring". That result justifies the entire strategy.
If not, it was a heavy price to pay. It is more then just the future picks. They also lost an All Star SF , a decent PG starter, a 4th pick and multiple depth players of various levels of impact when you include all the "have to clear cap space" trades to set up the trade.
Just win and make me forget! |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: |
The issue with acquiring Hield is the salary, what it would take to get him, and the significant hit we’d take on defense. |
I do worry about the defense.
I don't worry about the shooting, and I wouldn't call it average.
The salary part, it depends? I haven't looked far enough to know what the cap would be and how LAL could get FAs by then. But if a max salary is $35-40mil, then $26 is about the market?
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epic_
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Inspector Gadget wrote: | | Why are you guys talking about Buddy Hield? Kuzma is turning into the 3rd star we need and he has developed a very good defensive game, I wouldn’t trade Kuzma unless we are getting LaVine or another top notch scorer. |
Because Buddy has an elite skill that's valued in today's NBA.
And people think he's been stunted by Luke.
Not that I'm advocating for him.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Not taking salary and assets that would be needed to trade for him into account, having a shooter around AD/LBJ is always a good thing.
Then again, Green was an elite 3 shooter and he is struggling recently from there too. Would Buddy lose his marksmanship if he became a Laker?
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
2018 #10
2014 #36
2013 #57
2013 #30 |
Draft position is everything when you have an elite scouting, so why throw away picks, you know what I mean?
So,
2018: Mikal Bridges, Shai Gilgeous Alexander, Miles Bridges, Michael Porter Jr
For me in that given draft, it's a tossup between SGA and Mikal. MPJ had his 2nd back surgery that summer.
2014: Spencer Dinwiddie, Jerami Grant, Nikola Jokic, Dwight Powell
2013 #57: Robert Covington, Dwayne Dedmon, Dellavadova, Seth Curry,
2013 #30: Allen Crabbe, James Ennis
Assuming LAL maximized their scouting talent to even get the 2nd best players out of these drafts, that's a MASSIVE haul.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| epic_ wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | Why are you guys talking about Buddy Hield? Kuzma is turning into the 3rd star we need and he has developed a very good defensive game, I wouldn’t trade Kuzma unless we are getting LaVine or another top notch scorer. |
Because Buddy has an elite skill that's valued in today's NBA.
And people think he's been stunted by Luke.
Not that I'm advocating for him. |
I'm not either. I was just using him as an example of the skill LAL should value and the league values vs. an inconsistent unicorn.
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ocho
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | ocho wrote: |
The issue with acquiring Hield is the salary, what it would take to get him, and the significant hit we’d take on defense. |
I do worry about the defense.
I don't worry about the shooting, and I wouldn't call it average.
The salary part, it depends? I haven't looked far enough to know what the cap would be and how LAL could get FAs by then. But if a max salary is $35-40mil, then $26 is about the market? |
You’re not getting him as a FA though. At a minimum it costs you Kuzma and Green and probably a couple of picks. THEN you have to pay him that salary. Don’t think we’d have anything left but minimums.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: |
2018 #10
2014 #36
2013 #57
2013 #30 |
Draft position is everything when you have an elite scouting, so why throw away picks, you know what I mean?
So,
2018: Mikal Bridges, Shai Gilgeous Alexander, Miles Bridges, Michael Porter Jr
For me in that given draft, it's a tossup between SGA and Mikal. MPJ had his 2nd back surgery that summer.
2014: Spencer Dinwiddie, Jerami Grant, Nikola Jokic, Dwight Powell
2013 #57: Robert Covington, Dwayne Dedmon, Dellavadova, Seth Curry,
2013 #30: Allen Crabbe, James Ennis
Assuming LAL maximized their scouting talent to even get the 2nd best players out of these drafts, that's a MASSIVE haul. |
Understood. But we can't bat 100% and get the best prospects (and keep them, and with Magic we would have traded off these guys for no good reason) each time. My point was that on paper, Nash made some sense (though I thought it was a steep price for such an old player).
AD is different. 26 entering his prime. Salaries are lined up for us to go big game hunting in 2021 too. I miss our kids but I can totally understand AD.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | ocho wrote: |
The issue with acquiring Hield is the salary, what it would take to get him, and the significant hit we’d take on defense. |
I do worry about the defense.
I don't worry about the shooting, and I wouldn't call it average.
The salary part, it depends? I haven't looked far enough to know what the cap would be and how LAL could get FAs by then. But if a max salary is $35-40mil, then $26 is about the market? |
You’re not getting him as a FA though. At a minimum it costs you Kuzma and Green and probably a couple of picks. THEN you have to pay him that salary. Don’t think we’d have anything left but minimums. |
Yes, it's tough. Kuzma's surge was late. I'm not even sure when LAL has to pay him. The difference for me here is Buddy is in his prime, with a declining contract, with a shooting need.
I don't like the idea of a 1-way player. Almost makes me glad that DLO was out of the FA running last offseason, even if LAL sorely needs his playmaking.
But my original point was, I'd rather have Hield instead of Turner.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: |
2018 #10
2014 #36
2013 #57
2013 #30 |
Draft position is everything when you have an elite scouting, so why throw away picks, you know what I mean?
So,
2018: Mikal Bridges, Shai Gilgeous Alexander, Miles Bridges, Michael Porter Jr
For me in that given draft, it's a tossup between SGA and Mikal. MPJ had his 2nd back surgery that summer.
2014: Spencer Dinwiddie, Jerami Grant, Nikola Jokic, Dwight Powell
2013 #57: Robert Covington, Dwayne Dedmon, Dellavadova, Seth Curry,
2013 #30: Allen Crabbe, James Ennis
Assuming LAL maximized their scouting talent to even get the 2nd best players out of these drafts, that's a MASSIVE haul. |
Understood. But we can't bat 100% and get the best prospects (and keep them, and with Magic we would have traded off these guys for no good reason) each time. My point was that on paper, Nash made some sense (though I thought it was a steep price for such an old player).
AD is different. 26 entering his prime. Salaries are lined up for us to go big game hunting in 2021 too. I miss our kids but I can totally understand AD. |
From 2014- 2018, I felt that LAL batted pretty much 100%. They even drafted players I didn't specifically like, and those guys are successful.
And so what if we would have traded them? That means we would have had extra assets, so if LAL was trading for AD, the whole house didn't have to go with them.
Unfortunately, LAL's training staff wasn't up to snuff when it came to Nash. Paid the price for it, and imho, heavily. If the training staff can't handle that kind of nerve injury, why not keep the picks?
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epic_
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | Not taking salary and assets that would be needed to trade for him into account, having a shooter around AD/LBJ is always a good thing.
Then again, Green was an elite 3 shooter and he is struggling recently from there too. Would Buddy lose his marksmanship if he became a Laker? |
I agree. Having a shooter alongside Lebron and AD is good. I'll throw in a caveat. Having a shooter with handles/vision would be killer!
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ocho
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | ocho wrote: |
The issue with acquiring Hield is the salary, what it would take to get him, and the significant hit we’d take on defense. |
I do worry about the defense.
I don't worry about the shooting, and I wouldn't call it average.
The salary part, it depends? I haven't looked far enough to know what the cap would be and how LAL could get FAs by then. But if a max salary is $35-40mil, then $26 is about the market? |
You’re not getting him as a FA though. At a minimum it costs you Kuzma and Green and probably a couple of picks. THEN you have to pay him that salary. Don’t think we’d have anything left but minimums. |
Yes, it's tough. Kuzma's surge was late. I'm not even sure when LAL has to pay him. The difference for me here is Buddy is in his prime, with a declining contract, with a shooting need.
I don't like the idea of a 1-way player. Almost makes me glad that DLO was out of the FA running last offseason, even if LAL sorely needs his playmaking.
But my original point was, I'd rather have Hield instead of Turner. |
I’d rather have Hield than Turner as well.
Regarding Kuzma, he’s extension eligible this summer. I suspect they won’t give him one unless he has a stellar championship run. Don’t know what number he’d fetch. They can put the decision off if they want until next summer where he’d be a RFA.
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epic_
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: |
2018 #10
2014 #36
2013 #57
2013 #30 |
Draft position is everything when you have an elite scouting, so why throw away picks, you know what I mean?
So,
2018: Mikal Bridges, Shai Gilgeous Alexander, Miles Bridges, Michael Porter Jr
For me in that given draft, it's a tossup between SGA and Mikal. MPJ had his 2nd back surgery that summer.
2014: Spencer Dinwiddie, Jerami Grant, Nikola Jokic, Dwight Powell
2013 #57: Robert Covington, Dwayne Dedmon, Dellavadova, Seth Curry,
2013 #30: Allen Crabbe, James Ennis
Assuming LAL maximized their scouting talent to even get the 2nd best players out of these drafts, that's a MASSIVE haul. |
Understood. But we can't bat 100% and get the best prospects (and keep them, and with Magic we would have traded off these guys for no good reason) each time. My point was that on paper, Nash made some sense (though I thought it was a steep price for such an old player).
AD is different. 26 entering his prime. Salaries are lined up for us to go big game hunting in 2021 too. I miss our kids but I can totally understand AD. |
From 2014- 2018, I felt that LAL batted pretty much 100%. They even drafted players I didn't specifically like, and those guys are successful.
And so what if we would have traded them? That means we would have had extra assets, so if LAL was trading for AD, the whole house didn't have to go with them.
Unfortunately, LAL's training staff wasn't up to snuff when it came to Nash. Paid the price for it, and imho, heavily. If the training staff can't handle that kind of nerve injury, why not keep the picks? |
I know it's all hypothetical, but if Nash was healthy, and Kobe didn't hurt the Achilles, I think the Lakers make the WCF. And a good chance at making and winning the finals. That would have been worth the picks imo. Worth the picks at a chance at this chance too, imo.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I know it's all hypothetical, but if Nash was healthy, and Kobe didn't hurt the Achilles, I think the Lakers make the WCF. And a good chance at making and winning the finals. That would have been worth the picks imo.
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I remember feeling excited at the time, but didn't think Nash, or PG was the problem. I was just thinking, D12, Pau, and Bryant is plenty to build around, and vets at that age need depth to extend careers.
That gamble didn't work and LAL bottomed out for what, 5 years? Stuff like that is too risky sometimes.
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epic_
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | I know it's all hypothetical, but if Nash was healthy, and Kobe didn't hurt the Achilles, I think the Lakers make the WCF. And a good chance at making and winning the finals. That would have been worth the picks imo.
|
I remember feeling excited at the time, but didn't think Nash, or PG was the problem. I was just thinking, D12, Pau, and Bryant is plenty to build around, and vets at that age need depth to extend careers.
That gamble didn't work and LAL bottomed out for what, 5 years? Stuff like that is too risky sometimes. |
I dont know.
I think that Kobe Achilles changed everything.
At that time, they already had some kids:
Darius Johnson-Odum
Andrew Goudelock
Robert Sacre
Deven Ebanks
Darius Morris
And young guys under 28:
Jordan Hill
Jodie Meeks
Earl Clark
Dwight Howard
With Kobe hurt, I wonder how much it would have mattered who we got in the draft. In the end, the losing ended up helping us get Lebron and AD.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| epic_ wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | I know it's all hypothetical, but if Nash was healthy, and Kobe didn't hurt the Achilles, I think the Lakers make the WCF. And a good chance at making and winning the finals. That would have been worth the picks imo.
|
I remember feeling excited at the time, but didn't think Nash, or PG was the problem. I was just thinking, D12, Pau, and Bryant is plenty to build around, and vets at that age need depth to extend careers.
That gamble didn't work and LAL bottomed out for what, 5 years? Stuff like that is too risky sometimes. |
I dont know.
I think that Kobe Achilles changed everything.
At that time, they already had some kids:
Darius Johnson-Odum
Andrew Goudelock
Robert Sacre
Deven Ebanks
Darius Morris
And young guys under 28:
Jordan Hill
Jodie Meeks
Earl Clark
Dwight Howard
With Kobe hurt, I wonder how much it would have mattered who we got in the draft. In the end, the losing ended up helping us get Lebron and AD. |
The way I see it, I don't play older vets those insane minutes heading into the last months of the season. So when Kobe's achilles injury happens, I'm not surprised.
Even if it doesn't, you have 3 franchise players. Nash just doesn't seem necessary.
Also, about the picks you listed, those kids were mostly at the back end of their drafts, and not around the time LAL was drafting BPAs.
That's what I mean by draft position is everything, but especially when you have an elite scouting staff. By 2014, everything was upward with the draft.
I just remember what Jerry West did. He kept his franchise core, some role player core, but was absolutely willing to trade veterans for high draft picks and draft extremely well late, just to keep adding depth and build talent.
That philosophy was well executed and even got the '91 Lakers into the Finals, even in the late years of Worthy, replacing Kareem, etc.
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| epic_ wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | Why are you guys talking about Buddy Hield? Kuzma is turning into the 3rd star we need and he has developed a very good defensive game, I wouldn’t trade Kuzma unless we are getting LaVine or another top notch scorer. |
Because Buddy has an elite skill that's valued in today's NBA.
And people think he's been stunted by Luke.
Not that I'm advocating for him. |
I get it, Buddy is a good player.. but are people forgetting about his salary and the fact that acquiring him jeopardizes the cap plan? |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: |
2018 #10
2014 #36
2013 #57
2013 #30 |
Draft position is everything when you have an elite scouting, so why throw away picks, you know what I mean?
So,
2018: Mikal Bridges, Shai Gilgeous Alexander, Miles Bridges, Michael Porter Jr
For me in that given draft, it's a tossup between SGA and Mikal. MPJ had his 2nd back surgery that summer.
2014: Spencer Dinwiddie, Jerami Grant, Nikola Jokic, Dwight Powell
2013 #57: Robert Covington, Dwayne Dedmon, Dellavadova, Seth Curry,
2013 #30: Allen Crabbe, James Ennis
Assuming LAL maximized their scouting talent to even get the 2nd best players out of these drafts, that's a MASSIVE haul. |
Understood. But we can't bat 100% and get the best prospects (and keep them, and with Magic we would have traded off these guys for no good reason) each time. My point was that on paper, Nash made some sense (though I thought it was a steep price for such an old player).
AD is different. 26 entering his prime. Salaries are lined up for us to go big game hunting in 2021 too. I miss our kids but I can totally understand AD. |
From 2014- 2018, I felt that LAL batted pretty much 100%. They even drafted players I didn't specifically like, and those guys are successful.
And so what if we would have traded them? That means we would have had extra assets, so if LAL was trading for AD, the whole house didn't have to go with them.
Unfortunately, LAL's training staff wasn't up to snuff when it came to Nash. Paid the price for it, and imho, heavily. If the training staff can't handle that kind of nerve injury, why not keep the picks? |
We traded a bunch of guys for literally cap space. I think a bunch of the 2014-18 guys would have been traded for...cap space again.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | I know it's all hypothetical, but if Nash was healthy, and Kobe didn't hurt the Achilles, I think the Lakers make the WCF. And a good chance at making and winning the finals. That would have been worth the picks imo.
|
I remember feeling excited at the time, but didn't think Nash, or PG was the problem. I was just thinking, D12, Pau, and Bryant is plenty to build around, and vets at that age need depth to extend careers.
That gamble didn't work and LAL bottomed out for what, 5 years? Stuff like that is too risky sometimes. |
Nash was just too old. Idea in a vacuum made sense somewhat. But given Nash's age and balky back. I understand it was his injury against Lillard that began the spiral down, but at age, it was sort of a risk.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | I know it's all hypothetical, but if Nash was healthy, and Kobe didn't hurt the Achilles, I think the Lakers make the WCF. And a good chance at making and winning the finals. That would have been worth the picks imo.
|
I remember feeling excited at the time, but didn't think Nash, or PG was the problem. I was just thinking, D12, Pau, and Bryant is plenty to build around, and vets at that age need depth to extend careers.
That gamble didn't work and LAL bottomed out for what, 5 years? Stuff like that is too risky sometimes. |
I hated the move as soon as I heard about it. But, in 20/20 hindsight, I'm not sure how much it hurt us. We just would have thrown a bunch of assets into a trade for some other player, and it all would have come crashing down when Kobe blew out his Achilles and Howard bailed.
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Jesusdelonla
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| so the 2021 1st is 8-30 protected? haha thats good |
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epic_
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Jesusdelonla wrote: | | so the 2021 1st is 8-30 protected? haha thats good |
Yea, seems like we pretty much keep it.
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Jesusdelonla
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| epic_ wrote: | | Jesusdelonla wrote: | | so the 2021 1st is 8-30 protected? haha thats good |
Yea, seems like we pretty much keep it. |
so once we draft this years pick, we can trade that 2021 protected pick? |
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epic_
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Jesusdelonla wrote: | | epic_ wrote: | | Jesusdelonla wrote: | | so the 2021 1st is 8-30 protected? haha thats good |
Yea, seems like we pretty much keep it. |
so once we draft this years pick, we can trade that 2021 protected pick? |
That's my understanding. IG? Can you verify?
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Jesusdelonla
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| what can 2020 1st, 2021 st, tht, d green, alex caruso net us? |
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