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Aeneas Hunter
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 Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | I wouldn’t say that. We are just beginning to see how player valuations work in the current NBA. 10 years ago, or even 3 years ago, these numbers would look different.
Randle is a scoring big man who is just an average rebounder and not much of a defender. He is not an outside shooter. He is sort of a niche player. In the right place, he could be an all star caliber player, but at the moment there is not much demand for his skill set.
Nance is the sort of defensive big man that a lot of teams are looking for. The Cavs may have overpaid a little, but it’s not like they are saving cap space to chase big name free agents. He gives them a defensive anchor at the rim.
Perimeter scorers are in high demand. That’s why the Bulls gambled on Parker. The second year is only partially guaranteed, as I understand it. Compare this to the $18M deal we gave to Casey P. last year, not to the Randle deal. The point is that the Bulls may have made a losing bet on Parker, but this does not translate to anything that Randle could have gotten. |
No offense to Nance - who is a wonderful team defender and disruptive in passing lanes - but he is no "defensive anchor at the rim" nor does he have the agility or lateral quickness to be effective switching on to guards.
More than being some kind of dinosaur in the "modern" NBA, Julius was a victim of context and possibly bad agent-ing. As a poster noted previously, if Randle had been traded and Nance was still on the Lakers, their contract situations would probably be reversed. |
For whatever reason, Nance gets insanely underrated as a defender. He was third in the league in DRPM among PFs last year, just slightly behind Draymond Green and Anthony Davis. The Cavs knew what they were doing when they locked him up.
Anyway, to bring this back to something that is relevant for the Lakers going forward, we all need to reexamine our preconceptions about the market value of players. I was one of the people who thought that other teams would come after Randle last summer. I didn't think he was a max player, but I thought he would get an offer in the $14-15M range that we would be unable to match. Well, I was wrong, and as it turns out, Magic didn't want to keep him anyway. There is a lesson in this. |
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saetarubia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Randle was a huge reason why we were above average defensive team last season. Came up big in the clutch with defensive stops too. Randle is a better defender than Nance and obviously way better offensively. Luke tried his best to keep Nance as a starter, but it became a non-contest for that spot soon with Randle in the shape he was in last season.
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JPaulK0n
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Maginka are only going to go after the biggest fish, so you can already cross off Kawhi, Kyrie, Butler, Kemba, & Middleton. They got LeBron, and now are going to go for KD next offseason. Kawhi & Butler do not want to play with LeBron and don't want to be "second fiddle, same issue Kyrie had playing with LeBron. KD is going to be 31 next year, so he is closer in age with Bron and best buddies with Bron and doesn't mind being the 1A or 1B like he has been with both Westbrook & Curry. After KD, on this team, Klay is the 2nd best player in FA for this team to get, as he would fit much better than even Kawhi. Klay already doesn't mind being a 2nd or 3rd option or worries about his brand. He might be an even better fit on this Lakers team than the Warriors due to how much he would benefit from both Bron & Ball's passing. Imo the Lakers have a really good shot at getting one of KD or Klay, and if they get neither, the Lakers would probably just to do 1 year deals again and wait it out again for 2020 when AD is available. But, be prepared for the media turn on LeBron & how nobody wants to play with LeBron and the Lakers, same story they ran about Kobe near the end of his career. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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LOL, Suns gonna Sun...
Shams Charania
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Sources on @theathleticnba @watchstadium: The Phoenix Suns have waived 2017 second-rounder Davon Reed, clearing roster spot for Jamal Crawford. |
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noahp45
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Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Don't get the AD Love, Give me Giannis Antetokounmpo. Dude is the better player and doesn't get hurt every game. |
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pjiddy
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think you read that close enough. He says it was a fun rumored mega trade but neither team seems all that motivated to make a deal. |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| JPaulK0n wrote: | | Maginka are only going to go after the biggest fish, so you can already cross off Kawhi, Kyrie, Butler, Kemba, & Middleton. They got LeBron, and now are going to go for KD next offseason. Kawhi & Butler do not want to play with LeBron and don't want to be "second fiddle, same issue Kyrie had playing with LeBron. KD is going to be 31 next year, so he is closer in age with Bron and best buddies with Bron and doesn't mind being the 1A or 1B like he has been with both Westbrook & Curry. After KD, on this team, Klay is the 2nd best player in FA for this team to get, as he would fit much better than even Kawhi. Klay already doesn't mind being a 2nd or 3rd option or worries about his brand. He might be an even better fit on this Lakers team than the Warriors due to how much he would benefit from both Bron & Ball's passing. Imo the Lakers have a really good shot at getting one of KD or Klay, and if they get neither, the Lakers would probably just to do 1 year deals again and wait it out again for 2020 when AD is available. But, be prepared for the media turn on LeBron & how nobody wants to play with LeBron and the Lakers, same story they ran about Kobe near the end of his career. |
Kawhi is the biggest fish.
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pjiddy
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| noahp45 wrote: | | Don't get the AD Love, Give me Giannis Antetokounmpo. Dude is the better player and doesn't get hurt every game. |
Yeah give me Ben Simmons, as long as we're talking purely of preference and completely discarding likelihood of being available in a trade. |
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noahp45
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | | noahp45 wrote: | | Don't get the AD Love, Give me Giannis Antetokounmpo. Dude is the better player and doesn't get hurt every game. |
Yeah give me Ben Simmons, as long as we're talking purely of preference and completely discarding likelihood of being available in a trade. |
Cats on here thinking the Pels going to let AD go.
I can only say that the Bucs will let the Greek Freak Go |
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| noahp45 wrote: | | Don't get the AD Love, Give me Giannis Antetokounmpo. Dude is the better player and doesn't get hurt every game. |
Giannis ain’t leaving Milwaukee, they finally have a good coach, and they have some real nice talented players to complement the Greek-Freak, there is a better chance AD leaves NO.. the players they have are nothing to brag about and Jrue Holiday despite his nice talent always gets hurt. |
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CRoost
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | plan B and punt it again. |
Punting into 2020 isn't going to work if we want to keep BI. His cap hold in the summer of 2020 eats up enough cap space that we wouldn't have a max spot open.
It's use it in 2019 or lose it basically. |
Around that time Cap space is projected to be at $118 mil. What’s B.I. cap hold? |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | I wouldn’t say that. We are just beginning to see how player valuations work in the current NBA. 10 years ago, or even 3 years ago, these numbers would look different.
Randle is a scoring big man who is just an average rebounder and not much of a defender. He is not an outside shooter. He is sort of a niche player. In the right place, he could be an all star caliber player, but at the moment there is not much demand for his skill set.
Nance is the sort of defensive big man that a lot of teams are looking for. The Cavs may have overpaid a little, but it’s not like they are saving cap space to chase big name free agents. He gives them a defensive anchor at the rim.
Perimeter scorers are in high demand. That’s why the Bulls gambled on Parker. The second year is only partially guaranteed, as I understand it. Compare this to the $18M deal we gave to Casey P. last year, not to the Randle deal. The point is that the Bulls may have made a losing bet on Parker, but this does not translate to anything that Randle could have gotten. |
No offense to Nance - who is a wonderful team defender and disruptive in passing lanes - but he is no "defensive anchor at the rim" nor does he have the agility or lateral quickness to be effective switching on to guards.
More than being some kind of dinosaur in the "modern" NBA, Julius was a victim of context and possibly bad agent-ing. As a poster noted previously, if Randle had been traded and Nance was still on the Lakers, their contract situations would probably be reversed. |
For whatever reason, Nance gets insanely underrated as a defender. He was third in the league in DRPM among PFs last year, just slightly behind Draymond Green and Anthony Davis. The Cavs knew what they were doing when they locked him up.
Anyway, to bring this back to something that is relevant for the Lakers going forward, we all need to reexamine our preconceptions about the market value of players. I was one of the people who thought that other teams would come after Randle last summer. I didn't think he was a max player, but I thought he would get an offer in the $14-15M range that we would be unable to match. Well, I was wrong, and as it turns out, Magic didn't want to keep him anyway. There is a lesson in this. |
I'm aware of how good Nance is on defense and beat that drum consistently while he was a Laker. But his value comes as a team defender and at PF more than as a man-to-man defender and small-ball center.
Second, we'll see what happens this summer with Randle. He may not even opt out if he likes New Orleans and thinks he'll get a good sized deal from them in 2020. But you could be right that he's topped out currently as an MLE-level player.
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chantruong
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | | noahp45 wrote: | | Don't get the AD Love, Give me Giannis Antetokounmpo. Dude is the better player and doesn't get hurt every game. |
Yeah give me Ben Simmons, as long as we're talking purely of preference and completely discarding likelihood of being available in a trade. |
Don't worry we will get him in 2024 when is sick of playing in Philly after his rookie extension. |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | plan B and punt it again. |
Punting into 2020 isn't going to work if we want to keep BI. His cap hold in the summer of 2020 eats up enough cap space that we wouldn't have a max spot open.
It's use it in 2019 or lose it basically. |
Around that time Cap space is projected to be at $118 mil. What’s B.I. cap hold? |
$28,444,374. It's 300% of his qualifying offer.
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CRoost
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| saetarubia wrote: | | Randle was a huge reason why we were above average defensive team last season. Came up big in the clutch with defensive stops too. Randle is a better defender than Nance and obviously way better offensively. Luke tried his best to keep Nance as a starter, but it became a non-contest for that spot soon with Randle in the shape he was in last season. |
Nance dprm is 3.10 compare to Randle -0.13. My eye test says Randle is a better on ball defender and Nance is a better help defender but overall defensive impact suggest Nance and it’s not even close. |
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Judah
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Inspector Gadget wrote: | | noahp45 wrote: | | Don't get the AD Love, Give me Giannis Antetokounmpo. Dude is the better player and doesn't get hurt every game. |
Giannis ain’t leaving Milwaukee, they finally have a good coach, and they have some real nice talented players to complement the Greek-Freak, there is a better chance AD leaves NO.. the players they have are nothing to brag about and Jrue Holiday despite his nice talent always gets hurt. |
Giannis staying in MIL is far from a lock. They're an underwhelming team in the weak East, haven't found him a true second star, and have very little chance of ever doing so since they're a small market team.
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CRoost
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | plan B and punt it again. |
Punting into 2020 isn't going to work if we want to keep BI. His cap hold in the summer of 2020 eats up enough cap space that we wouldn't have a max spot open.
It's use it in 2019 or lose it basically. |
Around that time Cap space is projected to be at $118 mil. What’s B.I. cap hold? |
$28,444,374. It's 300% of his qualifying offer. |
So it’s imperative for us to sign and use our cap space. I’ll be rooting for Houston and Boston to win it all. My top 2 choices is either KD or Klay. |
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Judah wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | noahp45 wrote: | | Don't get the AD Love, Give me Giannis Antetokounmpo. Dude is the better player and doesn't get hurt every game. |
Giannis ain’t leaving Milwaukee, they finally have a good coach, and they have some real nice talented players to complement the Greek-Freak, there is a better chance AD leaves NO.. the players they have are nothing to brag about and Jrue Holiday despite his nice talent always gets hurt. |
Giannis staying in MIL is far from a lock. They're an underwhelming team in the weak East, haven't found him a true second star, and have very little chance of ever doing so since they're a small market team. |
we’ll see how they do this year as will the NBA and fans looking to see if Giannis can finally turn the Bucks into contenders in the East, if the Bucks still end up being a average team that only makes the playoffs and gets bounced in the 1st or 2nd round, then yeah I can see him finally becoming discontent. |
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saetarubia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | saetarubia wrote: | | Randle was a huge reason why we were above average defensive team last season. Came up big in the clutch with defensive stops too. Randle is a better defender than Nance and obviously way better offensively. Luke tried his best to keep Nance as a starter, but it became a non-contest for that spot soon with Randle in the shape he was in last season. |
Nance dprm is 3.10 compare to Randle -0.13. My eye test says Randle is a better on ball defender and Nance is a better help defender but overall defensive impact suggest Nance and it’s not even close. |
We played well even after trading Nance and JC. Don't think we'd have won that many games had Randle gone to Cavs instead of Nance. My eye test and results says that Randle was more important to the team on both ends. Most here were calling for Nance to be benched when Luke proffered him at the start of the season as well.
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Jesusdelonla
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| so did phoenix suns waive R Holmes? |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| saetarubia wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | saetarubia wrote: | | Randle was a huge reason why we were above average defensive team last season. Came up big in the clutch with defensive stops too. Randle is a better defender than Nance and obviously way better offensively. Luke tried his best to keep Nance as a starter, but it became a non-contest for that spot soon with Randle in the shape he was in last season. |
Nance dprm is 3.10 compare to Randle -0.13. My eye test says Randle is a better on ball defender and Nance is a better help defender but overall defensive impact suggest Nance and it’s not even close. |
We played well even after trading Nance and JC. Don't think we'd have won that many games had Randle gone to Cavs instead of Nance. My eye test and results says that Randle was more important to the team on both ends. Most here were calling for Nance to be benched when Luke proffered him at the start of the season as well. |
That may be true, but we did not have a prototypical team last year.. We needed Randle’s offense because we weren’t going to win many games with perimeter scoring. If Randle ever lands in the right spot where he can play sort of a Zach Randolph role, he could have a good career. But that isn’t what teams value right now.
As I said, there are lessons in this that may be relevant in the future. The Parker contract shows that perimeter scorers are probably overvalued by the market. We aren’t likely to find bargains on shooters. I won’t be surprised if one of the small market teams finds a Billy Beane GM who builds a team based on guys like Randle and guys who are effective at mid-range twos. |
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RI Laker
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Offer Randle the max. |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Jesusdelonla wrote: | | so did phoenix suns waive R Holmes? |
Nope, they waived Shaq Harrison and Davon Reed. The Lakers will have to wait for them to waive Chandler.
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Jesusdelonla
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Jesusdelonla wrote: | | so did phoenix suns waive R Holmes? |
Nope, they waived Shaq Harrison and Davon Reed. The Lakers will have to wait for them to waive Chandler. |
Thanks baron |
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Jesusdelonla wrote: | | so did phoenix suns waive R Holmes? |
I much rather get a vet like Ariza or Chandler, unless the Lakers feel Holmes can help the team. |
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