OFFICIAL GENERAL FREE AGENCY/TRADE THREAD (12/03/20 Updated List of Remaining 2020 Free Agents, p. 1)
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governator
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:30 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
I’m pretty confident all 3 guys together won’t work. Where it gets interesting is if they can flip Kyrie into some good depth. But this Kyrie story is really, really strange. The guy just left the team out of nowhere and doesn’t seem to be coming back any time soon. Not sure what his trade value is at this point.


If Harden can play the Klay role (not 1st option, focus on defense, i know) then their starting 5 is dangerous (DeAndre and Joe Harris are perfect complement pieces, similar to ours but our bench unit is way better)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:38 am    Post subject:

Karmaloop wrote:
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Maybe, but it says to me that the Rockets don't value Simmons as much as some of you do. I happen to agree. It's a minority viewpoint, as least as of right now, but I think Simmons may be the single most overrated player in the league. It's not that he's bad, but that he is rated as a superstar. The metrics don't rate him as a top 50 player, and he's starting a five year max contract. If I were the Rockets, I wouldn't be so eager to snatch him. Maybe you'll be able to laugh at us in a couple years, but maybe not.


Even if you do view Simmons as overrated, GMs have a pretty good idea of a players' value around the league. So the Rockets might not value Simmons overly high, but if they know another team (or teams) that do they can easily flip him to another team.


Or maybe the Rockets know this better than you think. In this era, GMs rely a lot on metrics. Metrics say that Simmons isn't a top 50 player in the league. For example, last year, RPM rated Simmons as the 83rd player and 25th PG. The previous year, he was 77th and 22nd. There are a variety of metrics out there, and there might be one that shows him as a more effective player. However, the metrics I've seen do not rate him highly. If this is the kind of data that GMs look at in valuing a player, his resale value may not be as high as you think.

The standard response is that Simmons has massive upside potential. Who knows? But I can tell you that he's 24 years old, averaging 12 ppg, and is still only a 60% free throw shooter. This doesn't make him a bad player. The problem is that he's on a superstar's contract, but he doesn't produce like a superstar.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:40 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
ocho wrote:
I’m pretty confident all 3 guys together won’t work. Where it gets interesting is if they can flip Kyrie into some good depth. But this Kyrie story is really, really strange. The guy just left the team out of nowhere and doesn’t seem to be coming back any time soon. Not sure what his trade value is at this point.


If Harden can play the Klay role (not 1st option, focus on defense, i know) then their starting 5 is dangerous (DeAndre and Joe Harris are perfect complement pieces, similar to ours but our bench unit is way better)

Based on the 2 places he want to go, it leads me to think the last thing Harden wants to do is go to a place where they use him that way. In fact, that is how the schemes changed a bit in Houston. The new coach came from Dallas' offense program and wanted to install a similar offense (Hence Wood playing the Porzingis role). Yet, Harden never bought in to playing off Wall.

The Nets have DAntoni. The Sixers had Morey. IMO, Harden wanted those 2 places as he knows those 2 places would allow him to stay who he is and be most effective isolating and playing a lot of offense from the top of the arc.

Golden State was an established team with a title already under their belts, a Finals they should have won and been 2 titles. They replaced Barnes for KD. Curry/Klay/Dray already established. So were the schemes.

This is a very different situation. I do think Nets will be a major threat and could get to the Finals, but I think their best bet to win a title will be 2021-22 when they could have an inshape Harden, full training camp, and a time to get all their role players and schemes in place.
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governator
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:43 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
governator wrote:
ocho wrote:
I’m pretty confident all 3 guys together won’t work. Where it gets interesting is if they can flip Kyrie into some good depth. But this Kyrie story is really, really strange. The guy just left the team out of nowhere and doesn’t seem to be coming back any time soon. Not sure what his trade value is at this point.


If Harden can play the Klay role (not 1st option, focus on defense, i know) then their starting 5 is dangerous (DeAndre and Joe Harris are perfect complement pieces, similar to ours but our bench unit is way better)

Based on the 2 places he want to go, it leads me to think the last thing Harden wants to do is go to a place where they use him that way. In fact, that is how the schemes changed a bit in Houston. The new coach came from Dallas' offense program and wanted to install a similar offense (Hence Wood playing the Porzingis role). Yet, Harden never bought in to playing off Wall.

The Nets have DAntoni. The Sixers had Morey. IMO, Harden wanted those 2 places as he knows those 2 places would allow him to stay who he is and be most effective isolating and playing a lot of offense from the top of the arc.

Golden State was an established team with a title already under their belts, a Finals they should have won and been 2 titles. They replaced Barnes for KD. Curry/Klay/Dray already established. So were the schemes.

This is a very different situation. I do think Nets will be a major threat and could get to the Finals, but I think their best bet to win a title will be 2021-22 when they could have an inshape Harden, full training camp, and a time to get all their role players and schemes in place.


you prob right and they always have the option to flip Kyrie for a stud big if it doesn't work. Huge back court in Harden-KD-Harris then an MPJ type next to DeAndre would be pretty scary
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:46 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Karmaloop wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Maybe, but it says to me that the Rockets don't value Simmons as much as some of you do. I happen to agree. It's a minority viewpoint, as least as of right now, but I think Simmons may be the single most overrated player in the league. It's not that he's bad, but that he is rated as a superstar. The metrics don't rate him as a top 50 player, and he's starting a five year max contract. If I were the Rockets, I wouldn't be so eager to snatch him. Maybe you'll be able to laugh at us in a couple years, but maybe not.


Even if you do view Simmons as overrated, GMs have a pretty good idea of a players' value around the league. So the Rockets might not value Simmons overly high, but if they know another team (or teams) that do they can easily flip him to another team.


Or maybe the Rockets know this better than you think. In this era, GMs rely a lot on metrics. Metrics say that Simmons isn't a top 50 player in the league. For example, last year, RPM rated Simmons as the 83rd player and 25th PG. The previous year, he was 77th and 22nd. There are a variety of metrics out there, and there might be one that shows him as a more effective player. However, the metrics I've seen do not rate him highly. If this is the kind of data that GMs look at in valuing a player, his resale value may not be as high as you think.

The standard response is that Simmons has massive upside potential. Who knows? But I can tell you that he's 24 years old, averaging 12 ppg, and is still only a 60% free throw shooter. This doesn't make him a bad player. The problem is that he's on a superstar's contract, but he doesn't produce like a superstar.

Simmons value is defense, IMO. He is able to defend positions 1-4. You are right, on offense he may be overrated. But that is not why I would trade for him..... it is for his ability to defend positions 1-4, switch, help, rotate. Houston badly needs an elite defender. Wall has never even played with an elite defender. FWIW all of Simmons advanced defensive stats and his all-NBA selections for NBA defensive teams show his value as a top 5 defender in the NBA. On offense, there may well be 50 more valuable players than Simmons (based on his role playing around Embiid). But on defense, after AD and Giannis, he is the 3rd most valuable defender in the NBA, IMO.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:57 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
ocho wrote:
I’m pretty confident all 3 guys together won’t work. Where it gets interesting is if they can flip Kyrie into some good depth. But this Kyrie story is really, really strange. The guy just left the team out of nowhere and doesn’t seem to be coming back any time soon. Not sure what his trade value is at this point.


If Harden can play the Klay role (not 1st option, focus on defense, i know) then their starting 5 is dangerous (DeAndre and Joe Harris are perfect complement pieces, similar to ours but our bench unit is way better)


I highly doubt Harden would be content with that. It's going to be interesting see who will be the ceremonial 3rd option on this team. Literally not enough possessions to go around a team that has 3 uber usage, need the ball in their hands guys. This may be unprecedented in that sense to have 3 guys in their primes forced together like this.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:16 am    Post subject:

Kuz for Jarret Allen, please?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:19 am    Post subject:

If Harden became as unselfish as Klay Thompson and Kyrie Irving became as unselfish as Steph Curry and DeAndre Jordan became as unselfish and smart on defense as Draymond Green, the Nets would be title favorites.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:20 am    Post subject:

Pau Gasol's Beard wrote:
Kuz for Jarret Allen, please?

Man, 2017 was a long, long time ago.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:26 am    Post subject:

The threesome will not work out for the Nets (specifically Kyrie and Harden). Kyrie's value might be lower now than at any point in his career and its only a matter of time before he is moved. Harden better go on a diet because he porked up. His game relies on getting to the basket and going to the FT line and the extra pounds will not help (especially since he is already 31).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:30 am    Post subject:

Pau Gasol's Beard wrote:
Kuz for Jarret Allen, please?


Cleveland would be dumb to prioritize Javale over Allen. I highly doubt Jarrett Allen is going anywhere.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:22 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Simmons value is defense, IMO. He is able to defend positions 1-4. You are right, on offense he may be overrated. But that is not why I would trade for him..... it is for his ability to defend positions 1-4, switch, help, rotate. Houston badly needs an elite defender. Wall has never even played with an elite defender. FWIW all of Simmons advanced defensive stats and his all-NBA selections for NBA defensive teams show his value as a top 5 defender in the NBA. On offense, there may well be 50 more valuable players than Simmons (based on his role playing around Embiid). But on defense, after AD and Giannis, he is the 3rd most valuable defender in the NBA, IMO.


Well, in fact many of the metrics say that he is overrated on defense. For example, last year he ranked 60th among PGs with a DRPM of -0.85. The previous year he ranked 79th among with a DRPM of -0.99. I've seen other metrics that are more favorable to Simmons, but none of them show him to be an elite defender. I'm never going to tell you that metrics are definitive of anything, but neither is the eyeball test, especially when it comes to defense.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:26 am    Post subject:

Imo Bradley Beal finally gets traded this season. Let’s see who is willing to pay the price.
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ocho
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:39 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
ocho wrote:
I’m pretty confident all 3 guys together won’t work. Where it gets interesting is if they can flip Kyrie into some good depth. But this Kyrie story is really, really strange. The guy just left the team out of nowhere and doesn’t seem to be coming back any time soon. Not sure what his trade value is at this point.


If Harden can play the Klay role (not 1st option, focus on defense, i know) then their starting 5 is dangerous (DeAndre and Joe Harris are perfect complement pieces, similar to ours but our bench unit is way better)


I doubt that’s how they intend to use him and if they are they shouldn’t have done this deal. If you’re signing up for the Harden Experience and all the negatives that come with it you have to at least take advantage at what he’s good at. The ball is going to be in his hands. Maybe it works out because he has a real closer next to him now. Durant can help alleviate Harden’s annual playoff meltdown.

The guy who doesn’t fit to me is Kyrie. They should look to move him ASAP but I don’t know if Durant would be on board with that but who knows if Kyrie is even going to return to the team from whatever spiritual journey he’s on this time. It’s also difficult to see how they put together a competent defense with the personnel they have. Buyout guys can help but they’re also asset poor now (unless you count Kyrie as tradeable and who knows with him) and they can’t trade picks.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:43 am    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
Imo Bradley Beal finally gets traded this season. Let’s see who is willing to pay the price.


Not sure who even targets him. GS for Wiseman/Oubre/picks?

Hard to imagine GS doing the 5-7 picks/swaps thing for some reason.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:46 am    Post subject:

if true, supports the premise that every possible mutation that does not significantly reduce spread will likely be encountered.

" Scientists at The Ohio State University have discovered a new variant of SARS-Cov-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. The new variant carries a mutation identical to the strain in the United Kingdom, but it likely arose in a virus strain already present in the United States. "

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/01/14/covid-news-who-wuhan-moderna-vaccine-trial-california-montana/4150754001/
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:47 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
governator wrote:
ocho wrote:
I’m pretty confident all 3 guys together won’t work. Where it gets interesting is if they can flip Kyrie into some good depth. But this Kyrie story is really, really strange. The guy just left the team out of nowhere and doesn’t seem to be coming back any time soon. Not sure what his trade value is at this point.


If Harden can play the Klay role (not 1st option, focus on defense, i know) then their starting 5 is dangerous (DeAndre and Joe Harris are perfect complement pieces, similar to ours but our bench unit is way better)


I doubt that’s how they intend to use him and if they are they shouldn’t have done this deal. If you’re signing up for the Harden Experience and all the negatives that come with it you have to at least take advantage at what he’s good at. The ball is going to be in his hands. Maybe it works out because he has a real closer next to him now. Durant can help alleviate Harden’s annual playoff meltdown.

The guy who doesn’t fit to me is Kyrie. They should look to move him ASAP but I don’t know if Durant would be on board with that but who knows if Kyrie is even going to return to the team from whatever spiritual journey he’s on this time. It’s also difficult to see how they put together a competent defense with the personnel they have. Buyout guys can help but they’re also asset poor now (unless you count Kyrie as tradeable and who knows with him) and they can’t trade picks.


It's funny that Kyrie is actually the most interesting part of this trade. A team that builds around prime KD/Harden has dynasty potential, but Kyrie is inadvertently tanking the value needed by the Nets FO.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:53 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Simmons value is defense, IMO. He is able to defend positions 1-4. You are right, on offense he may be overrated. But that is not why I would trade for him..... it is for his ability to defend positions 1-4, switch, help, rotate. Houston badly needs an elite defender. Wall has never even played with an elite defender. FWIW all of Simmons advanced defensive stats and his all-NBA selections for NBA defensive teams show his value as a top 5 defender in the NBA. On offense, there may well be 50 more valuable players than Simmons (based on his role playing around Embiid). But on defense, after AD and Giannis, he is the 3rd most valuable defender in the NBA, IMO.


Well, in fact many of the metrics say that he is overrated on defense. For example, last year he ranked 60th among PGs with a DRPM of -0.85. The previous year he ranked 79th among with a DRPM of -0.99. I've seen other metrics that are more favorable to Simmons, but none of them show him to be an elite defender. I'm never going to tell you that metrics are definitive of anything, but neither is the eyeball test, especially when it comes to defense.


I mean he was voted All Defensive 1st Team for a reason. And I can't tell you how many times basketball analytics nerds have said the defensive stats are woefully incomplete and don't capture a players full effect on that end of the floor.
It's why Michael Mulder, Jokic and Isaac Bonga had higher DRPM's than Giannis last year.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:01 am    Post subject:

Cavs likely to trade Drummond.

https://twitter.com/mikeascotto/status/1349733186683564041?s=21

He makes $28 mil
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:16 am    Post subject:

Nash Vegas wrote:
Cavs likely to trade Drummond.

https://twitter.com/mikeascotto/status/1349733186683564041?s=21

He makes $28 mil

Celtics TPE
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:17 am    Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
Imo Bradley Beal finally gets traded this season. Let’s see who is willing to pay the price.


Not sure who even targets him. GS for Wiseman/Oubre/picks?

Hard to imagine GS doing the 5-7 picks/swaps thing for some reason.


Let’s see what Morey does now that Fertitta refused to let him get Harden.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:21 am    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
Imo Bradley Beal finally gets traded this season. Let’s see who is willing to pay the price.


Not sure who even targets him. GS for Wiseman/Oubre/picks?

Hard to imagine GS doing the 5-7 picks/swaps thing for some reason.


Let’s see what Morey does now that Fertitta refused to let him get Harden.


Simmons plus a few picks should do the trick. Unless they are too cheap to want to pay another player 30 mill a year as well
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:23 am    Post subject:

Bruno Caboclo waived by the Rockets.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:25 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Nash Vegas wrote:
Cavs likely to trade Drummond.

https://twitter.com/mikeascotto/status/1349733186683564041?s=21

He makes $28 mil

Celtics TPE

Can you just send picks and use the TPE?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:30 am    Post subject:

SPO200 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Nash Vegas wrote:
Cavs likely to trade Drummond.

https://twitter.com/mikeascotto/status/1349733186683564041?s=21

He makes $28 mil

Celtics TPE

Can you just send picks and use the TPE?


Yes, but it likely takes a first and we all know how stingy Ainge is.
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