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Sentient Meat
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 Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Bard207 wrote: | G League to offer $125K to elite prospects as alternative to college one-and-done route
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In a move that could challenge the NCAA's monopoly on elite talent, the NBA's G League is creating a new venture as an alternative to the one-and-done route for the best American basketball prospects, it was announced Thursday.
As part of a newly formed professional path starting in the summer of 2019, the G League will offer "Select Contracts" worth $125,000 to elite prospects who are at least 18 years old but not yet eligible for the NBA draft.
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There is quite a bit more to read at the link. |
I think all this will prove is how much certain universities are paying kids under the table. I'm guessing it's more than 125,000 |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | | pokoy wrote: | | I really just whoever has #1 to take Zion because I would absolutely hate for him to end up on the Celtics. |
If they don't get him then they're getting RJ Barrett 😪 |
Idk, Kings looked spry last night.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Random draft trends thought of October:
The top of the 2018 class was basically a Doncic (and to a lesser extent Young) v. "modern" bigs debate, and I read and listened to a number of arguments in favor of Ayton over Doncic at #1 focused on whether the next trend in basketball talent is the multidimensional big. It may be, but I think that would be more a product of regression in guard initiator talent than even a concomitant advancement in big man talent.
And that makes sense, since the league is likely in an unsustainable renaissance of elite shot-makers going from Chris Paul to Kyrie Irving, headlined by Steph Curry, that has caused distortions in drafting patterns just as with teams trying to find Baby Shaq or The Next Jordan in years past. But I'd argue that barring rule changes, it remains in bad NBA teams' interests to over-draft initiator talent over big man talent when applicable. Chris Paul and Anthony Davis will both be HOF players, but I'd take 24-year-old Chris Paul over 24-year-old Anthony Davis, and I don't know that there's a better "modern" big man in the NBA than AD.
But unfortunately among post-Kyrie initiator guards, most have disappointed or still have a ways to go, as Lakers fans are well aware. Even the most promising of the bunch in Mitchell and Booker (interestingly both late lotto picks) have a fair amount of work to do to improve as passers and truly efficient volume shot-makers (.600 TS%+) to match up to a Dame Lillard let alone a James Harden. The NFL went through a similar drought after a historic run of all-time QBs and may just now have the young talent to follow in the footsteps of Rodgers, Brady, etc. as that group reaches retirement age. I look forward to the current wave of multidimensional bigs becoming great players and cementing the importance of guard skill at all five positions, but I hope some of the current and upcoming crop of young guards step up to replace their elders, because an efficient spread PnR pull-up three distorts defenses more than even an AD or Embiid post-up ever could.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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^ In that vein, the 2019 draft early on looks weak in guard initiator talent and much thinner in multidimensional big man talent with two skilled, but physically flawed prospects in Bol Bol and Jontay Porter projected as lottery picks.
Instead the 2019 draft is top heavy with tools-y scoring wings, the type of versatile swingmen who we've seen the best teams load up on in recent years. Drafting a wing-sized primary initiator talent may be the holy grail for teams due to potential defensive versatility and the roster flexibility they provide over smaller, mono-positional scoring guards. We'll have to see which of Zion, Little, Barrett, Cam, Langford, etc. demonstrate the most efficient shot-creation for themselves and others this college season. Because many wings cast in the primary initiator role are asked to be something they're not, which can lead to years of frustrating inefficiency in the wrong role (looking at Josh Jackson).
But every one of the top 2019 wings has flashed intriguing creator upside, so draftniks will have a lot to look forward to at the top of this class and in finding hidden gems for the Lakers to draft in the late 1st round.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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I think there are so many talented PGs, some of whom don't even make All-Star games, that if it were the modern NBA and I had to choose between AD and a point guard, I choose AD.
CP3 had Blake and DeAndre Jordan and was basically a 2nd round team. AD with shooters, Rondo, and Holiday, got them to the 2nd round and beat Portland as the underdogs, the premiere "guard-oriented" team.
It's not that the league doesn't value skill bigs. They do. There just isn't anywhere near what it used to be in the 80s and into the 90s. It's especially easy to see initiators/creators have more value than bigs because most bigs are lob targets that swat.
But, if there's a potential All D 1st team big that plays like a wing, and has zero issues playing with pace, he's the rarer target. He's the guy that GSW can't really answer for. Every time it's the Pels and GSW meeting, it was perimeter defense and guard play. AD always dominated individually.
Now, the Pels are freaky with Randle (who is a psuedo playmaking big, and switchable on D), Mirotic (elite shooting big) and AD. HOU looked tired and out of shape, but the Pels ran them off the floor game one.
That applies directly to the upcoming draft, and why after some gametape and thought, I'd have Zion over Barrett. I'm skeptical of most lefties shooting 3s in the first place because of most of their footwork and how they square up. Can't remember if I mentioned before, but I had a conversation with Cole about how lefties aren't the most accurate NBA 3pt shooters; the accurate ones are mostly set shooters, but if you look at the league leaders in 3pt shooting with volume, they're righties.
There are exceptions to the rule. Luke Kennard is the guy that stands out the most, and oddly enough, he's a right handed guy that shoots lefty.
Zion isn't a big that can play like AD. He doesn't have the length. But what he can do and has shown signs of, is making shots from range, making crosscourt reads with solid passing, and using otherworldly athleticism to draw fouls, get to the rim, rebound, and even swat (and not hit his head). He's like a twitchy Barkley/Randle with elite vert. Another rare talent.
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PlantedTanks
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Random draft trends thought of October:
The top of the 2018 class was basically a Doncic (and to a lesser extent Young) v. "modern" bigs debate, and I read and listened to a number of arguments in favor of Ayton over Doncic at #1 focused on whether the next trend in basketball talent is the multidimensional big. It may be, but I think that would be more a product of regression in guard initiator talent than even a concomitant advancement in big man talent.
And that makes sense, since the league is likely in an unsustainable renaissance of elite shot-makers going from Chris Paul to Kyrie Irving, headlined by Steph Curry, that has caused distortions in drafting patterns just as with teams trying to find Baby Shaq or The Next Jordan in years past. But I'd argue that barring rule changes, it remains in bad NBA teams' interests to over-draft initiator talent over big man talent when applicable. Chris Paul and Anthony Davis will both be HOF players, but I'd take 24-year-old Chris Paul over 24-year-old Anthony Davis, and I don't know that there's a better "modern" big man in the NBA than AD.
But unfortunately among post-Kyrie initiator guards, most have disappointed or still have a ways to go, as Lakers fans are well aware. Even the most promising of the bunch in Mitchell and Booker (interestingly both late lotto picks) have a fair amount of work to do to improve as passers and truly efficient volume shot-makers (.600 TS%+) to match up to a Dame Lillard let alone a James Harden. The NFL went through a similar drought after a historic run of all-time QBs and may just now have the young talent to follow in the footsteps of Rodgers, Brady, etc. as that group reaches retirement age. I look forward to the current wave of multidimensional bigs becoming great players and cementing the importance of guard skill at all five positions, but I hope some of the current and upcoming crop of young guards step up to replace their elders, because an efficient spread PnR pull-up three distorts defenses more than even an AD or Embiid post-up ever could. |
Here's my take although I am not completely sold on these thoughts.
The PG's being developed in AAU and College do not develop the passing instincts to become true initiators. It is not only a mindset but repetitive experience to become a player like Chris Paul or Lonzo. To read the angles, pass your teammate open, making the correct read and executing the pass in that split second your teammate is open is truly a learned skill.
Booker and Mitchell are what I term pseudo pg's. Scorers who get assists due to their high usage rate. Kyrie has the skills to be similar to Chris Paul but his mindset is still as a scorer and does not possess the defensive chops of CP. It will be interesting if he is willing to defer scoring to JT, GH and JB as the Celtics team matures. I believe Ainge is in a dilemma about maxing him.
Ayton vs Doncic. Tough call but I would lean toward Ayton. For the most part you can replicate what Doncic brings to the court. I believe he will become at least and average to above average 3 pt shooter over time and become and elite or close to it initiator. Everything else will be average at best. He has no special physical attributes if he remains at SF. Not diminishing his talent by any means as he is a very good player.
Ayton is an elite physical specimen with coordination and very very good skills. He has the potential to dominate 17-18 ft and in on both sides of the court. He will night in and night out be a match up problem for most teams. AD and Embid are probably more skilled but Ayton is not far behind. Also I would put AD and Embid in the top 6-8 players in the NBA and Ayton has similar potential while I don't believe Doncic does.
Chris Paul vs AD. It depends who is the best player on your team. If Chris Paul is then a clear NO. If CP is paired with another superstar better than him (e.g. KD) then YES. For AD whether he is the best or second best I would surely consider taking him. Consider AD and KD together. I hope you see what I am trying to say. |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Sleeper big man Mike Watkins (Penn State) opens up about mental health: link
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Baron Von Humongous
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adkindo
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | Not draft specific...but we talk about the high school kids in this thread.
I am upset. WVU has been recruiting big man Oscar Tshiebwe out of Kennedy Catholic in Pennsylvania for over 2 years. He was basically the guy that followed Sagaba Konate @ Kennedy Catholic. When we began to recruit him, he was either a 3 Star or low 4 Star prospect. We were the first major offer he got, and have been all over him for a couple years. All the major media sites that cover recruiting had him penciled into WVU.....and over the last 2 years, he rose to become a 5 Star prospect and the #1 Player in PA. Still....everyone pointed to WVU even as Kansas, Georgetown, Virginia and many others made offers.
Then this summer as it became clear that Kentucky would likely lose James Wiseman to Penny Hardaway and Memphis, they began to sniff around Tshiebwe....and offered him in recent weeks. Now all the experts are claiming it is between WVU and UK! 2019 is likely going to only be a 3 player class for WVU, and we have 1 commit, and were basically only heavily recruiting Tshiebwe and Kenyon Martin to complete the 2019 class. Tshiebwe would be the first 5 Star we have landed in recent history.
I absolutely hate these "blue bloods" swooping in during the final weeks to try to steal a recruit when they are unable to get the guy they wanted. He visits UK next week....then has his final official visit the following week @ WVU....I hope being in the cleanup spot is a good sign for WVU. #HoldingMyBreath |
WVU is going to have to up its contract offer for sure. Yeah, I said it. |
bro if we have been paying for players, then we have been doing it wrong. Decision expected any day....some reporting suggests he still leans WVU. |
Five-star center Oscar Tshiebwe commits to West Virginia over Kentucky, Baylor and Illinois
LINK
1st 5 Star Basketball commit in the programs history! |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | I think there are so many talented PGs, some of whom don't even make All-Star games, that if it were the modern NBA and I had to choose between AD and a point guard, I choose AD.
CP3 had Blake and DeAndre Jordan and was basically a 2nd round team. AD with shooters, Rondo, and Holiday, got them to the 2nd round and beat Portland as the underdogs, the premiere "guard-oriented" team.
It's not that the league doesn't value skill bigs. They do. There just isn't anywhere near what it used to be in the 80s and into the 90s. It's especially easy to see initiators/creators have more value than bigs because most bigs are lob targets that swat.
But, if there's a potential All D 1st team big that plays like a wing, and has zero issues playing with pace, he's the rarer target. He's the guy that GSW can't really answer for. Every time it's the Pels and GSW meeting, it was perimeter defense and guard play. AD always dominated individually.
Now, the Pels are freaky with Randle (who is a psuedo playmaking big, and switchable on D), Mirotic (elite shooting big) and AD. HOU looked tired and out of shape, but the Pels ran them off the floor game one.
That applies directly to the upcoming draft, and why after some gametape and thought, I'd have Zion over Barrett. I'm skeptical of most lefties shooting 3s in the first place because of most of their footwork and how they square up. Can't remember if I mentioned before, but I had a conversation with Cole about how lefties aren't the most accurate NBA 3pt shooters; the accurate ones are mostly set shooters, but if you look at the league leaders in 3pt shooting with volume, they're righties.
There are exceptions to the rule. Luke Kennard is the guy that stands out the most, and oddly enough, he's a right handed guy that shoots lefty.
Zion isn't a big that can play like AD. He doesn't have the length. But what he can do and has shown signs of, is making shots from range, making crosscourt reads with solid passing, and using otherworldly athleticism to draw fouls, get to the rim, rebound, and even swat (and not hit his head). He's like a twitchy Barkley/Randle with elite vert. Another rare talent. |
The final frontier for most guard-skilled bigs is running a PnR with efficiency. The only one I've seen do it on volume is Kevin Durant who is the true great 'modern' big man as an elite 7-foot initiator, though he's only rarely provided conventional big man defensive value. I would obviously take Durant over all but a handful of players in NBA history.
Davis hasn't reached that level of indepence or creation ability, and likely never will, though he continues to improve as a ball-handler and passer. Giannis could get close with even a passable pull-up three point jumper, and Simmons could be Lebron's true heir with a jumpshot. Jokic, of course, may revolutionize the game as a top of the arc PG who barely moves his feet.
But ultimately there's more value and will continue to be more value in high efficiency, high volume primary initiators from Lebron to Curry, because they are independent and can set the table for themselves and others every time down the floor. Giannis could cross that threshold soon, Simmons may some day, and AD still has time, but lags behind that group as a creator even as he's a better shooter. We've seen KD. It's possible for a true elite 7-foot guard to exist. Yet even though 'modern' bigs add a great deal of additional value by bringing guard value up several positions, there's a soft bigotry of low expectations for even the best skilled bigs because those guard skills have been historically so rare in larger basketball players.
So we agree on Zion because he combines his massive frame and freakish athleticism with legit guard skill. Even though his polish as a guard creator lags some behind Barrett, if I have the choice between two 6'7 wings with shaky jumpers, I take the freakish 280-pound athlete who can play up a position or two mitigating some of his shooting weaknesses and exploiting his quickness mismatch. Ultimately the hope for Zion is that he's a legit two-way #1 option, and to do that he's going to have to maximize his initiator skill. And that's my point - if AD, Giannis, Simmons, Zion, etc. aren't capable of both advanced reads and hitting a pull-up three out of a PnR with efficiency and volume, give me the guard or wing who can do so over them.
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Last edited by Baron Von Humongous on Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:33 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | Not draft specific...but we talk about the high school kids in this thread.
I am upset. WVU has been recruiting big man Oscar Tshiebwe out of Kennedy Catholic in Pennsylvania for over 2 years. He was basically the guy that followed Sagaba Konate @ Kennedy Catholic. When we began to recruit him, he was either a 3 Star or low 4 Star prospect. We were the first major offer he got, and have been all over him for a couple years. All the major media sites that cover recruiting had him penciled into WVU.....and over the last 2 years, he rose to become a 5 Star prospect and the #1 Player in PA. Still....everyone pointed to WVU even as Kansas, Georgetown, Virginia and many others made offers.
Then this summer as it became clear that Kentucky would likely lose James Wiseman to Penny Hardaway and Memphis, they began to sniff around Tshiebwe....and offered him in recent weeks. Now all the experts are claiming it is between WVU and UK! 2019 is likely going to only be a 3 player class for WVU, and we have 1 commit, and were basically only heavily recruiting Tshiebwe and Kenyon Martin to complete the 2019 class. Tshiebwe would be the first 5 Star we have landed in recent history.
I absolutely hate these "blue bloods" swooping in during the final weeks to try to steal a recruit when they are unable to get the guy they wanted. He visits UK next week....then has his final official visit the following week @ WVU....I hope being in the cleanup spot is a good sign for WVU. #HoldingMyBreath |
WVU is going to have to up its contract offer for sure. Yeah, I said it. |
bro if we have been paying for players, then we have been doing it wrong. Decision expected any day....some reporting suggests he still leans WVU. |
Five-star center Oscar Tshiebwe commits to West Virginia over Kentucky, Baylor and Illinois
LINK
1st 5 Star Basketball commit in the programs history! |
Was waiting for you to post this. UK fans of course didn't want him, anyway.
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adkindo
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Was waiting for you to post this. UK fans of course didn't want him, anyway. |
why do you say that? UK went after him hard in recent months....especially since they will likely lose out on Wiseman. |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Was waiting for you to post this. UK fans of course didn't want him, anyway. |
why do you say that? UK went after him hard in recent months....especially since they will likely lose out on Wiseman. |
It's a joke about UK fans sour apples, kindo. There's a portion of the Wildcats fanbase dedicated to calling Zion fat because he chose Duke over Kentucky.
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Bard207
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| Sour grapes (Aesop's Fables) is probably used more often than sour apples. |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| Bard207 wrote: | | Sour grapes (Aesop's Fables) is probably used more often than sour apples. |
It was late, Bard.
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Bard207
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Ok
Edits so we can forget it? |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Bard207 wrote: | Ok
Edits so we can forget it? |
No, I'm leaving my mistake up for posterity. Thank you for the correction.
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818fan
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Jesus, just terrible.
Also, always take the money, kids.
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Megaton
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Bard207
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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I recently saw a mock draft with Jontay going late lottery.
Giles dropped because of health concerns a few years ago and Michael Porter dropped in the last draft.
Is Jontay going to drop to the second round or will a team gamble and take him with a late first?
Last edited by Bard207 on Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MJST
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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As against tanking as I am, I'd welcome getting RJ Barrett lol I think he's going to be very special.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Bard207 wrote: | I recently saw a mock draft with Jontay going late lottery.
Giles dropped because of health concerns a few years ago and Michael Porter dropped in the last draft.
Is Jontay going to drop to the second round or will a team gamble and take him with a late first? |
Will he even declare? If he does, I'd hope the Lakers draft him barring anything odd with his recovery.
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Bard207
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Bard207 wrote: | I recently saw a mock draft with Jontay going late lottery.
Giles dropped because of health concerns a few years ago and Michael Porter dropped in the last draft.
Is Jontay going to drop to the second round or will a team gamble and take him with a late first? |
Will he even declare? If he does, I'd hope the Lakers draft him barring anything odd with his recovery. |
No idea.
NBA Buzz has him as a late first at best in the 2019 draft.
If he came to you for advice, would you tell him to declare or go back to school and wait until the 2020 draft? |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Bard207 wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Bard207 wrote: | I recently saw a mock draft with Jontay going late lottery.
Giles dropped because of health concerns a few years ago and Michael Porter dropped in the last draft.
Is Jontay going to drop to the second round or will a team gamble and take him with a late first? |
Will he even declare? If he does, I'd hope the Lakers draft him barring anything odd with his recovery. |
No idea.
NBA Buzz has him as a late first at best in the 2019 draft.
If he came to you for advice, would you tell him to declare or go back to school and wait until the 2020 draft? |
I'd tell him to get out and get paid unless he absolutely loves living in Missouri. But draft nerds like him more than the NBA seems to, so he may fall out of the 2019 draft altogether.
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