Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:31 am Post subject:
It really helps that Ja Morant is age 19 with 2 years of NCAA time under his belt. That'll likely help him land a #2 to #5 spot.
But with defense that atrocious, literally playing only half the court, and his weaknesses emulating what the Lakers do worst, I don't see how LAL makes him a better player. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
yah if Zion doesnt go 1st it would be the biggest mistake a franchise has ever done. although BArrett looks good he just doesnt have the promise Zion has. literally i think its the next coming of LEbron just by his freakish athletism. also very efficent on offense. shotting like 70% in the ACC tourney
Barrett's stock has lost steam strictly as a result of playing next to Zion. He's supremely skilled and has even a bit of the demeanor reminiscent of Russell Westbrook or Kobe Bryant.
I think RJ will be a fantastic pro. If this were last year, I would rank him just under Luka and Ayton. He's an elite level prospect.
I don't get how his stock has dropped due to playing next to Zion when he's taking 6 more FGAs per game than Williamson. Shouldn't some of those FGAs be going to Zion instead given the vast discrepancy in efficiency between the two? It seems odd that Barrett would be negatively affected next to a far superior player - that doesn't bode well for his NBA future, does it?
Now Barrett should have an easier time getting to the rim in the pros with better spacing, but he doesn't have a ton of wiggle, he's not especially vertically explosive in traffic, his handle is somewhat rudimentary at this point, and his inbetween/floater game is basically nonexistent. I buy into the scoring motor and him becoming a good, but not great shooter, but I can't see that adding up to much more than a better DeRozan (damn good outcome in this draft, no question, but very far from Luka, JJJ, Fultz, etc. as a prospect).
It hasn't dropped at all. It just lost steam, as in they hype is no longer there. Zion's stock rose as a result of this college season AND he was already the most hyped prep player in the nation. Going to college for him was absolutely beneficiary. For Barrett, I don't think his stock really budged and I would assume most pro scouts see him for what they thought he was. Supremely skilled, tenacious, amazing physical tools, and a scorer mentality. The only thing that changed is that Zion went from like the #4 prospect to the the unquestioned #1 due to his play. Barrett became default #2, but not because he's disappointed.
As far as his game, I disagree, Barrett is absolutely explosive in traffic. He is a high level athlete. He is ridiculously skilled, especially for a 18-19 year old, in his ability to score the ball. He's a three level player, with a good handle for wing. He can be a playmaker, and he has shown he can effect the game positively even when his shot isn't falling. He's going to be a great player especially in the NBA which will do a much better job of showcasing his skill set.
Depending on the team he goes to obviously, he's my early ROY pick for next season.
Pretty sure Barrett was the source of his own flagging momentum at the beginning of the season given his 43% shooting in November and early December. We're clearly watching different players if you think Barrett is "absolutely explosive in traffic" and "ridiculously skilled," which explains why you may have thought Barrett was a better prospect than Zion in HS. If an NBA GM without the benefit of a college season scouted Barrett and Williamson in HS/AAU/individual workouts and still selected Barrett over Zion, that GM would rightfully deserve to be fired.
And I don't even dislike Barrett as a prospect. _________________ Under New Management
Last edited by Baron Von Humongous on Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:54 am; edited 1 time in total
It really helps that Ja Morant is age 19 with 2 years of NCAA time under his belt. That'll likely help him land a #2 to #5 spot.
But with defense that atrocious, literally playing only half the court, and his weaknesses emulating what the Lakers do worst, I don't see how LAL makes him a better player.
The defense interests me less than the jumper. If he can hit step back 3s and pull-up 3s out of PnR with volume and efficiency, then his offensive impact will far outweigh his defensive deficiencies. If he plateaus as an energetic slasher with an inconsistent jumper in the vein of Westbrook and Wall, Morant's poor defense becomes much more of an issue. _________________ Under New Management
Took a morning roll on Tankathon, Lakers moved up to #4 where Culver was mocked. This is what will happen now. It's prophecy. _________________ Under New Management
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:32 am Post subject:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
It really helps that Ja Morant is age 19 with 2 years of NCAA time under his belt. That'll likely help him land a #2 to #5 spot.
But with defense that atrocious, literally playing only half the court, and his weaknesses emulating what the Lakers do worst, I don't see how LAL makes him a better player.
The defense interests me less than the jumper. If he can hit step back 3s and pull-up 3s out of PnR with volume and efficiency, then his offensive impact will far outweigh his defensive deficiencies. If he plateaus as an energetic slasher with an inconsistent jumper in the vein of Westbrook and Wall, Morant's poor defense becomes much more of an issue.
My concern is how he played zombie defense. It was so evident he played 1 half of the court. Trae can't play defense either but at least he makes effort. So did Nash. Murray State's defense even shifted to bias toward Morant and that helped create the scoring run for FSU and it never relented.
I also expect him to be along the lines of Wall and Westbrook.
But in terms of intangibles, if he's a Laker, he won't have the respect of his own teammates. It won't be his team from the get go. He can't afford to completely slack on defense. It wouldn't seem to be the ideal place for him to succeed. We don't even know if he's really capable of getting just a fair defender because we haven't seen that type of effort being sustained throughout a game.
This team can't afford a guy that doesn't make the effort, but especially when he doesn't have the credibility and gravity of LeBron.
He's such a Phoenix Suns point guard. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
yah if Zion doesnt go 1st it would be the biggest mistake a franchise has ever done. although BArrett looks good he just doesnt have the promise Zion has. literally i think its the next coming of LEbron just by his freakish athletism. also very efficent on offense. shotting like 70% in the ACC tourney
Barrett's stock has lost steam strictly as a result of playing next to Zion. He's supremely skilled and has even a bit of the demeanor reminiscent of Russell Westbrook or Kobe Bryant.
I think RJ will be a fantastic pro. If this were last year, I would rank him just under Luka and Ayton. He's an elite level prospect.
I don't get how his stock has dropped due to playing next to Zion when he's taking 6 more FGAs per game than Williamson. Shouldn't some of those FGAs be going to Zion instead given the vast discrepancy in efficiency between the two? It seems odd that Barrett would be negatively affected next to a far superior player - that doesn't bode well for his NBA future, does it?
Now Barrett should have an easier time getting to the rim in the pros with better spacing, but he doesn't have a ton of wiggle, he's not especially vertically explosive in traffic, his handle is somewhat rudimentary at this point, and his inbetween/floater game is basically nonexistent. I buy into the scoring motor and him becoming a good, but not great shooter, but I can't see that adding up to much more than a better DeRozan (damn good outcome in this draft, no question, but very far from Luka, JJJ, Fultz, etc. as a prospect).
It hasn't dropped at all. It just lost steam, as in they hype is no longer there. Zion's stock rose as a result of this college season AND he was already the most hyped prep player in the nation. Going to college for him was absolutely beneficiary. For Barrett, I don't think his stock really budged and I would assume most pro scouts see him for what they thought he was. Supremely skilled, tenacious, amazing physical tools, and a scorer mentality. The only thing that changed is that Zion went from like the #4 prospect to the the unquestioned #1 due to his play. Barrett became default #2, but not because he's disappointed.
As far as his game, I disagree, Barrett is absolutely explosive in traffic. He is a high level athlete. He is ridiculously skilled, especially for a 18-19 year old, in his ability to score the ball. He's a three level player, with a good handle for wing. He can be a playmaker, and he has shown he can effect the game positively even when his shot isn't falling. He's going to be a great player especially in the NBA which will do a much better job of showcasing his skill set.
Depending on the team he goes to obviously, he's my early ROY pick for next season.
Pretty sure Barrett was the source of his own flagging momentum at the beginning of the season given his 43% shooting in November and early December. We're clearly watching different players if you think Barrett is "absolutely explosive in traffic" and "ridiculously skilled," which explains why you may have thought Barrett was a better prospect than Zion in HS. If an NBA GM without the benefit of a college season scouted Barrett and Williamson in HS/AAU/individual workouts and still selected Barrett over Zion, that GM would rightfully deserve to be fired.
And I don't even dislike Barrett as a prospect.
Zion no doubt raised his stock due to his college season. Many questioned his defense and his ability to even take outside shots. He answered those, to the point where people see his defensive awareness as a strength. Additionally, he showed that he can at least hit some open shots and is not afraid to attempt them. College helped him more than any other #1 prospect that I can remember, and he's said as much. Playing at Duke really gave him the platform to show that he is more than an all time athlete or human highlight reel. He's got real basketball skills and intellect to go along with his rare athletic ability and high motor. Thats why he's going #1.
Barrett is highly skilled for a 19 year old, and one of the best in actually scoring that we've seen from a prospect. He's very skilled when it comes to scoring. His biggest issue is inefficiency which he should become better with when he improves his jumpshot (which he will) and as he plays smarter. Hopefully he goes to a team that puts him in the best areas where he can take advantage of his best spots and hurt teams with his scoring ability.
Would it be safe to say only a top-3 pick in this draft has major trade value?
Zion, Barrett and Morant seem to be in tiers by themselves and then you have ~10 players all in a similar tier with far lower upside than your usually lottery picks?
yah if Zion doesnt go 1st it would be the biggest mistake a franchise has ever done. although BArrett looks good he just doesnt have the promise Zion has. literally i think its the next coming of LEbron just by his freakish athletism. also very efficent on offense. shotting like 70% in the ACC tourney
Barrett's stock has lost steam strictly as a result of playing next to Zion. He's supremely skilled and has even a bit of the demeanor reminiscent of Russell Westbrook or Kobe Bryant.
I think RJ will be a fantastic pro. If this were last year, I would rank him just under Luka and Ayton. He's an elite level prospect.
I don't get how his stock has dropped due to playing next to Zion when he's taking 6 more FGAs per game than Williamson. Shouldn't some of those FGAs be going to Zion instead given the vast discrepancy in efficiency between the two? It seems odd that Barrett would be negatively affected next to a far superior player - that doesn't bode well for his NBA future, does it?
Now Barrett should have an easier time getting to the rim in the pros with better spacing, but he doesn't have a ton of wiggle, he's not especially vertically explosive in traffic, his handle is somewhat rudimentary at this point, and his inbetween/floater game is basically nonexistent. I buy into the scoring motor and him becoming a good, but not great shooter, but I can't see that adding up to much more than a better DeRozan (damn good outcome in this draft, no question, but very far from Luka, JJJ, Fultz, etc. as a prospect).
It hasn't dropped at all. It just lost steam, as in they hype is no longer there. Zion's stock rose as a result of this college season AND he was already the most hyped prep player in the nation. Going to college for him was absolutely beneficiary. For Barrett, I don't think his stock really budged and I would assume most pro scouts see him for what they thought he was. Supremely skilled, tenacious, amazing physical tools, and a scorer mentality. The only thing that changed is that Zion went from like the #4 prospect to the the unquestioned #1 due to his play. Barrett became default #2, but not because he's disappointed.
As far as his game, I disagree, Barrett is absolutely explosive in traffic. He is a high level athlete. He is ridiculously skilled, especially for a 18-19 year old, in his ability to score the ball. He's a three level player, with a good handle for wing. He can be a playmaker, and he has shown he can effect the game positively even when his shot isn't falling. He's going to be a great player especially in the NBA which will do a much better job of showcasing his skill set.
Depending on the team he goes to obviously, he's my early ROY pick for next season.
Pretty sure Barrett was the source of his own flagging momentum at the beginning of the season given his 43% shooting in November and early December. We're clearly watching different players if you think Barrett is "absolutely explosive in traffic" and "ridiculously skilled," which explains why you may have thought Barrett was a better prospect than Zion in HS. If an NBA GM without the benefit of a college season scouted Barrett and Williamson in HS/AAU/individual workouts and still selected Barrett over Zion, that GM would rightfully deserve to be fired.
And I don't even dislike Barrett as a prospect.
Zion no doubt raised his stock due to his college season. Many questioned his defense and his ability to even take outside shots. He answered those, to the point where people see his defensive awareness as a strength. Additionally, he showed that he can at least hit some open shots and is not afraid to attempt them. College helped him more than any other #1 prospect that I can remember, and he's said as much. Playing at Duke really gave him the platform to show that he is more than an all time athlete or human highlight reel. He's got real basketball skills and intellect to go along with his rare athletic ability and high motor. Thats why he's going #1.
Barrett is highly skilled for a 19 year old, and one of the best in actually scoring that we've seen from a prospect. He's very skilled when it comes to scoring. His biggest issue is inefficiency which he should become better with when he improves his jumpshot (which he will) and as he plays smarter. Hopefully he goes to a team that puts him in the best areas where he can take advantage of his best spots and hurt teams with his scoring ability.
How do you know he will improve his efficiency when his numbers look similar to Westbrook... and Westbrook never really did?
At least Russ could shoot FTs.
Now, obviously you're going to say that a discount version of Russ is still a great player... but as someone who never liked Russ's inefficiency even during his MVP form... it's not a player who excites me personally.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:31 am Post subject:
LakerLogic wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
Is Barrett a better prospect then BI?
Yes.
Who has a higher ceiling?
That's a tough question. Barrett was ranked over Zion because he brought the International Team to win over Team USA and has loads of pedigree like Tatum did prior to his draft.
Ingram, OTOH, was more predicated on how quickly he could add skill set.
It's easier to see how Barrett's game may have more upside. Decision-making alone would clean up a lot of his offensive game, and frankly, I think years of coaching his 3-point shot.... eventually it has to fall.
But Barrett doesn't lack the NBA strength than Ingram does. He's a bull going to the paint, so I end up thinking of him as Julius Randle in a wing body. Similar issues on drives, in terms of vision, in terms of shot. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:35 am Post subject:
LakerMindLA wrote:
Would it be safe to say only a top-3 pick in this draft has major trade value?
Zion, Barrett and Morant seem to be in tiers by themselves and then you have ~10 players all in a similar tier with far lower upside than your usually lottery picks?
#1 has major trade value.
#2 and #3, don't. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I think #2 has a lot of value, Morant is a cash cow at worst. Not a big fan of Barrett. Stiff athlete and no play-making ability. Wiggins type with better motor. Not bad but not franchise-changing.
I think #2 has a lot of value, Morant is a cash cow at worst. Not a big fan of Barrett. Stiff athlete and no play-making ability. Wiggins type with better motor. Not bad but not franchise-changing.
Barrett seems to be a willing passer with good vision.
Wiggins averaged 1.5 APG.. Barrett 4.1 APG.
4.1 APG is very respectable in CBB, especially for a non-pg. Barrett also averaged 4.6 APG in FIBA.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:53 am Post subject:
LakerMindLA wrote:
LakerLogic wrote:
#1 in untradeable.
I think #2 has a lot of value, Morant is a cash cow at worst. Not a big fan of Barrett. Stiff athlete and no play-making ability. Wiggins type with better motor. Not bad but not franchise-changing.
Barrett seems to be a willing passer with good vision.
Wiggins averaged 1.5 APG.. Barrett 4.1 APG.
4.1 APG is very respectable in CBB, especially for a non-pg. Barrett also averaged 4.6 APG in FIBA.
The assists per game lie. He has 19/20 year old Kobe Bryant shot selection. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I think #2 has a lot of value, Morant is a cash cow at worst. Not a big fan of Barrett. Stiff athlete and no play-making ability. Wiggins type with better motor. Not bad but not franchise-changing.
Barrett seems to be a willing passer with good vision.
Wiggins averaged 1.5 APG.. Barrett 4.1 APG.
4.1 APG is very respectable in CBB, especially for a non-pg. Barrett also averaged 4.6 APG in FIBA.
The assists per game lie. He has 19/20 year old Kobe Bryant shot selection.
Wouldn't that make averaging 4.1 APG or 4.6 APG in college even more impressive?
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:57 am Post subject:
LakerMindLA wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
LakerMindLA wrote:
LakerLogic wrote:
#1 in untradeable.
I think #2 has a lot of value, Morant is a cash cow at worst. Not a big fan of Barrett. Stiff athlete and no play-making ability. Wiggins type with better motor. Not bad but not franchise-changing.
Barrett seems to be a willing passer with good vision.
Wiggins averaged 1.5 APG.. Barrett 4.1 APG.
4.1 APG is very respectable in CBB, especially for a non-pg. Barrett also averaged 4.6 APG in FIBA.
The assists per game lie. He has 19/20 year old Kobe Bryant shot selection.
Wouldn't that make averaging 4.1 APG or 4.6 APG in college even more impressive?
No. Imagine 3 of his assists going to Zion.
Is it that impressive anymore? _________________ Resident Car Nut.
yah if Zion doesnt go 1st it would be the biggest mistake a franchise has ever done. although BArrett looks good he just doesnt have the promise Zion has. literally i think its the next coming of LEbron just by his freakish athletism. also very efficent on offense. shotting like 70% in the ACC tourney
Barrett's stock has lost steam strictly as a result of playing next to Zion. He's supremely skilled and has even a bit of the demeanor reminiscent of Russell Westbrook or Kobe Bryant.
I think RJ will be a fantastic pro. If this were last year, I would rank him just under Luka and Ayton. He's an elite level prospect.
I don't get how his stock has dropped due to playing next to Zion when he's taking 6 more FGAs per game than Williamson. Shouldn't some of those FGAs be going to Zion instead given the vast discrepancy in efficiency between the two? It seems odd that Barrett would be negatively affected next to a far superior player - that doesn't bode well for his NBA future, does it?
Now Barrett should have an easier time getting to the rim in the pros with better spacing, but he doesn't have a ton of wiggle, he's not especially vertically explosive in traffic, his handle is somewhat rudimentary at this point, and his inbetween/floater game is basically nonexistent. I buy into the scoring motor and him becoming a good, but not great shooter, but I can't see that adding up to much more than a better DeRozan (damn good outcome in this draft, no question, but very far from Luka, JJJ, Fultz, etc. as a prospect).
It hasn't dropped at all. It just lost steam, as in they hype is no longer there. Zion's stock rose as a result of this college season AND he was already the most hyped prep player in the nation. Going to college for him was absolutely beneficiary. For Barrett, I don't think his stock really budged and I would assume most pro scouts see him for what they thought he was. Supremely skilled, tenacious, amazing physical tools, and a scorer mentality. The only thing that changed is that Zion went from like the #4 prospect to the the unquestioned #1 due to his play. Barrett became default #2, but not because he's disappointed.
As far as his game, I disagree, Barrett is absolutely explosive in traffic. He is a high level athlete. He is ridiculously skilled, especially for a 18-19 year old, in his ability to score the ball. He's a three level player, with a good handle for wing. He can be a playmaker, and he has shown he can effect the game positively even when his shot isn't falling. He's going to be a great player especially in the NBA which will do a much better job of showcasing his skill set.
Depending on the team he goes to obviously, he's my early ROY pick for next season.
Pretty sure Barrett was the source of his own flagging momentum at the beginning of the season given his 43% shooting in November and early December. We're clearly watching different players if you think Barrett is "absolutely explosive in traffic" and "ridiculously skilled," which explains why you may have thought Barrett was a better prospect than Zion in HS. If an NBA GM without the benefit of a college season scouted Barrett and Williamson in HS/AAU/individual workouts and still selected Barrett over Zion, that GM would rightfully deserve to be fired.
And I don't even dislike Barrett as a prospect.
Zion no doubt raised his stock due to his college season. Many questioned his defense and his ability to even take outside shots. He answered those, to the point where people see his defensive awareness as a strength. Additionally, he showed that he can at least hit some open shots and is not afraid to attempt them. College helped him more than any other #1 prospect that I can remember, and he's said as much. Playing at Duke really gave him the platform to show that he is more than an all time athlete or human highlight reel. He's got real basketball skills and intellect to go along with his rare athletic ability and high motor. Thats why he's going #1.
Barrett is highly skilled for a 19 year old, and one of the best in actually scoring that we've seen from a prospect. He's very skilled when it comes to scoring. His biggest issue is inefficiency which he should become better with when he improves his jumpshot (which he will) and as he plays smarter. Hopefully he goes to a team that puts him in the best areas where he can take advantage of his best spots and hurt teams with his scoring ability.
How do you know he will improve his efficiency when his numbers look similar to Westbrook... and Westbrook never really did?
At least Russ could shoot FTs.
Now, obviously you're going to say that a discount version of Russ is still a great player... but as someone who never liked Russ's inefficiency even during his MVP form... it's not a player who excites me personally.
I never liked Iverson either.
Because he's 19, extremely skilled especially when it comes to scoring, has underrated playmaking skills, and will receive NBA coaching and experience which should improve his decision making.
I think #2 has a lot of value, Morant is a cash cow at worst. Not a big fan of Barrett. Stiff athlete and no play-making ability. Wiggins type with better motor. Not bad but not franchise-changing.
Barrett seems to be a willing passer with good vision.
Wiggins averaged 1.5 APG.. Barrett 4.1 APG.
4.1 APG is very respectable in CBB, especially for a non-pg. Barrett also averaged 4.6 APG in FIBA.
The assists per game lie. He has 19/20 year old Kobe Bryant shot selection.
Wouldn't that make averaging 4.1 APG or 4.6 APG in college even more impressive?
No. Imagine 3 of his assists going to Zion.
Is it that impressive anymore?
He averaged 5.2 APG without Zion playing and he didn't have Zion in FIBA and he averaged 4.6 APG there. He wouldn't be the first lottery player to be on a stacked team.
Do you think Wiggin's averages 4.1 APG with Zion?
Last edited by LakerMindLA on Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total
I think #2 has a lot of value, Morant is a cash cow at worst. Not a big fan of Barrett. Stiff athlete and no play-making ability. Wiggins type with better motor. Not bad but not franchise-changing.
Im convinced you haven't watched Barrett play. He has a developed body, but he's not a stiff at all LOL. And he absolutely has playmaking ability. He needs to invoke that part of his game more, but he has a scorer mentality.
The Wiggins comparison is weird especially since you called him stiff.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:11 am Post subject:
Quote:
He didn't have Zion in FIBA and he averaged 4.6 APG there and he wouldn't be the first lottery player to be on a stacked team.
Do you think Wiggin's averages 4.1 APG with Zion?
Let me reframe the argument.
RJ Barrett takes 39% of his shots at the rim, converts 64%.
27% of his shots all other 2 point range, converts 38%
Despite a FTr of 33.2 his TS is sub-average 53.5%.
What would it be if he actually made consistently good decisions on the floor?
Having watched Duke all year, it's one thing when Zion goes down. It's another when Cam Reddish is the better playmaker than Barrett despite his poor shooting. The team itself falls apart if Tre Jones doesn't support Duke's offense with RJ Barrett's decision-making.
That's how bad it is. Barrett's assists per game is a misleading stat that doesn't match the gametape with what would typically define good decision-making, just like Zion's negative A:TO ratio doesn't reflect that he makes better advanced reads than Barrett.
As for Barrett's international team, it helps when they can actually shoot. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
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