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Sentient Meat
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:47 pm    Post subject:

Another long perimeter guy who can't shoot free throws or threes?

Are we going to keep shuffling these BPAs ad infinitum instead of drafting for actual need?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
Another long perimeter guy who can't shoot free throws or threes?

Are we going to keep shuffling these BPAs ad infinitum instead of drafting for actual need?


If assuming the BPA is another long perimeter guy who can't shoot FTs or 3s, then yes. What do you see as our need in July?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:10 pm    Post subject:

epak wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
Another long perimeter guy who can't shoot free throws or threes?

Are we going to keep shuffling these BPAs ad infinitum instead of drafting for actual need?


If assuming the BPA is another long perimeter guy who can't shoot FTs or 3s, then yes. What do you see as our need in July?


Shooters... Rim protectors... Backup point guard unless we can get Rondo to sign for peanuts.

I like Konate as a late first rounder... Hopefully we aren't in the lotto again.

When I see another long athletic wing who can't shoot a 3 or FTs efficiently it sends chills up my spine as many have promised me this would rectify itself with time and yet I rarely see it happen.

Just once I want to draft someone who shoots close to 90% from the line.

These 60% FT shooters are killing my soul.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:13 pm    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
epak wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
Another long perimeter guy who can't shoot free throws or threes?

Are we going to keep shuffling these BPAs ad infinitum instead of drafting for actual need?


If assuming the BPA is another long perimeter guy who can't shoot FTs or 3s, then yes. What do you see as our need in July?


Shooters... Rim protectors... Backup point guard unless we can get Rondo to sign for peanuts.

I like Konate as a late first rounder... Hopefully we aren't in the lotto again.

When I see another long athletic wing who can't shoot a 3 or FTs efficiently it sends chills up my spine as many have promised me this would rectify itself with time and yet I rarely see it happen.

Just once I want to draft someone who shoots close to 90% from the line.

These 60% FT shooters are killing my soul.


I hear ya.
I just think that BPA and "long and athletic" are exclusive terms to each other. If the BPA is a guy with great TS%, then I'm all for that too.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:45 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
Another long perimeter guy who can't shoot free throws or threes?

Are we going to keep shuffling these BPAs ad infinitum instead of drafting for actual need?


It's the BPAs that led to having roughly 4 potential starters, including Hart.

2 of them already fixed their shooting. 1 of them needs to get back to where he was.

Shrug.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:58 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
Another long perimeter guy who can't shoot free throws or threes?

Are we going to keep shuffling these BPAs ad infinitum instead of drafting for actual need?


It's the BPAs that led to having roughly 4 potential starters, including Hart.

2 of them already fixed their shooting. 1 of them needs to get back to where he was.

Shrug.


When the rebuilding project started, we lacked long athletic perimeter players who could run. Ball and Ingram were young but had decent shooting numbers 41% from 3, if suspect free throw shooting. We would have probably kept Randle if he showed any signs of developing a midrange or 3 ball.

Now we need rim protection, shooting, and possibly a point guard.

I don't see how a player like Wilkes is going to help our situation.

I'm not saying he won't be a nice player... a lot of the guys you touted here are showing some promise.

But at this point we need kids who can protect the rim and put the ball in the hole. Long and athletic is a good metric... but all I'm saying is we should try to combine it with a plus 80% FT shooting. These 60% shooters don't seem to become consistent shooters from the field over time.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:06 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
Another long perimeter guy who can't shoot free throws or threes?

Are we going to keep shuffling these BPAs ad infinitum instead of drafting for actual need?


It's the BPAs that led to having roughly 4 potential starters, including Hart.

2 of them already fixed their shooting. 1 of them needs to get back to where he was.

Shrug.


When the rebuilding project started, we lacked long athletic perimeter players who could run. Ball and Ingram were young but had decent shooting numbers 41% from 3, if suspect free throw shooting. We would have probably kept Randle if he showed any signs of developing a midrange or 3 ball.

Now we need rim protection, shooting, and possibly a point guard.

I don't see how a player like Wilkes is going to help our situation.

I'm not saying he won't be a nice player... a lot of the guys you touted here are showing some promise.

But at this point we need kids who can protect the rim and put the ball in the hole. Long and athletic is a good metric... but all I'm saying is we should try to combine it with a plus 80% FT shooting. These 60% shooters don't seem to become consistent shooters from the field over time.


k wait. I think we're looking at things differently here.

1. We have rim protection in JaVale McGee. We have more than an adequate backup in Tyson Chandler. Both were cheap FA pick ups (big reason why I don't always highly value pick and roll bigs that swat), so why waste a draft pick on that?

2. Shooting. Lonzo fixed his shooting for now. So did Hart. Ingram showed NCAA level shooting but it didn't translate to NBA level yet consistently. Kuzma, had a severe drop off. We have the shooting. It's just 10 games into the season. There's a big difference there. Not all shooters are always hot. We even drafted shooters in Mykhailiuk and Wagner., so technically, you got your draft by need. A few people on this board saw my immediate reaction to the draft in person, and basically, you're experiencing why I'm not a fan of draft by need.

3. Point guard. Rondo is arguably one of the best backup point guards in the league. He's not the shooter of VanVleet but man he's a better creator. The Lakers already have a wealth of creators on the floor with Lonzo, LeBron, and Rondo. That's better than the rest of the league.

BPAs usually bring unique talents. Every team needs unique talent, something that gives them an advantage over the rest of the league. We rave about Bonga's great game, but this board knows how I vouched for Melton's defense. Like we don't need defense at 1/2 that's switchable? Dude just got a triple double in his first game in the G-League.

Ideally, I'd have starters, and the bench would be comprised of draft picks that are basically starters-in-training. I didn't see that with any of the last picks from 2018. Could they get there? Sure. Are there guys that I thought had a better chance of being starters/closers on a playoff team AND and upside? You bet.

Another reason why I'm not particularly a fan of drafting "just shooters". If they aren't making shots, what are they contributing on the floor? Hart makes shots, but as bad as his Iso perimeter defense is, he stays on the floor because he rebounds and defends big. He wasn't drafted for shooting, yet he's already the best shooter next to Lonzo.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:28 am    Post subject:

The reason I keep saying Konate over and over is because he shows elite blocking ability combined with good FT shooting in a draft that is lacking in high quality centers.

I agree JaVale has been good but we can't count on Tyson for much longer so unless Mo proves he has a strong defensive base... chances are we are going to get another stretch 4 type contribution from him.

I love Rondo, but I assume he won't want to play for room exception type salary. If he does... then we don't need another point guard.

I also like Svi... but unless Luke plays him, we don't know for sure if we've solved that shooter need. Personally, I think he's shown enough to be thrown into the deep end for rotation minutes... but I get why he keeps playing Stephenson because he has played well even though I fear he will be doomed to regress to his 30% 3 point shooting mean.

Although I'm high on Lonzo and BI... it's way too early to declare Lonzo's shooting fixed... He has merely become clever about hitting shots and then preserving his FG% by facilitating. When he keeps shooting all game... and threatening to score 30, I will call his shooting fixed. I think he's capable of this... but right now I think he takes his opportunities... makes them... then shuts it down unless needed at the end. He needs to be aggressive all game long. That is what I like about BI even though he's been less efficient. He is looking for the shot all game so of course he's going to look bad at times, but at least he's trying. I'm not saying they should chuck like Kuzma sometimes does... but they should always be a threat so the opponents D can't play 4 on 5.

Kemba, Kawhi, Butler, Klay... all shot free throws well when they were young. It sounds asinine to use FT as such a key metric... but other than Kawhi who went from a good to elite FT shooter in the pros... they all were elite from the start. Until we get our youngsters clicking on all cylinders... I'm personally targeting players who shoot close to 80% from the line... At least 70 plus% minimum.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:34 am    Post subject:

Here's the tough news about shooters.

Unless you make it easier for them, the shooting doesn't always translate.

Malik Monk was absolute fire at Kentucky. He wasn't last year.
Joe Harris needed 3 years to shoot well with actual volume.
Landry Shamet, took direct lessons from JJ Redick and PHI still gets him easy spot up shots.

You can have your favorites in the draft. I have mine. But, that doesn't mean it's what's best for the team.

The wingspan issue with Svi keeps showing every time he shoots. He needs time to adjust to those NBA contests and the only way is to shoot quicker. That, alter his shots. If it's severe, it's Sasha level shooting.

If it's too early to declare Lonzo's shooting fixed, it's also too early to declare BI's and Kuz's broken as well.

When Kuz isn't making shots, then what does he contribute?
If BI isn't playmaking/defending, then what does he contribute?

NBA teams can take away what players do best. It's how well players do the other stuff that keeps them on the floor, and even net positive. Then over time, they can get to what they do best, at an NBA level.

Kemba, not a great 3pt shooter entering the league, BPA.
Kawhi, did everything else well, was NEVER a shooter or great Iso ball-handler.
Butler, was basically stronger Ariza until all of that mindblowing work ethic paid off with footwork and jumpshot.
Klay, wasn't Klay, until a few years in the league. Even then, he still had to learn defense.

The key to all of this? They all needed time to develop.

You can scream Konate and then it wouldn't surprise me if he couldn't stay on the floor because of foul trouble and FT% dipped because the NBA is just more harsh on the body. It doesn't even make him an immediate contributor.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:43 am    Post subject:

I think we are overstating the wingspan issue.

If Lowry can get off his shot with 6 foot height and 6 2" wingspan with BI guarding him... Svi can get off his.

Get him a hundred shots and I bet he comes good... he already has shown surprisingly good court vision and decent defense.

Yes, I know there are issues with release time... but if Steph and Lowry can get off their shot... I think Svi can too... Especially considering Kansas had the 2nd highest Strength of Schedule last season.

Konate worries me only because he's not quite tall enough. I was interested in Bol Bol but you've said yourself you don't think he's strong or twitchy enough to be a serious center prospect.

So unless Tyson dips into the fountain of youth... it seems like Konate is a good person to target.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
I think we are overstating the wingspan issue.

If Lowry can get off his shot with 6 foot height and 6 2" wingspan with BI guarding him... Svi can get off his.


Lowry took years to develop better Iso ball-handling out of Villanova and was a consideringly better, even pudgy athlete. But his ability to draw fouls kept him effective offensively. To me, this is apples and oranges, because Lowry's best skill wasn't shooting coming out of the draft.

Quote:
Get him a hundred shots and I bet he comes good... he already has shown surprisingly good court vision and decent defense.

Yes, I know there are issues with release time... but if Steph and Lowry can get off their shot... I think Svi can too... Especially considering Kansas had the 2nd highest Strength of Schedule last season.


Once again, to me, this is apples and oranges. Svi isn't the same level of ball-handling, FTr, passing, or defending. Steph had ball-handling/passing. Lowry had FTr and defense.

Quote:
Konate worries me only because he's not quite tall enough. I was interested in Bol Bol but you've said yourself you don't think he's strong or twitchy enough to be a serious center prospect.

So unless Tyson dips into the fountain of youth... it seems like Konate is a good person to target.


Why target just 1 guy when there's possibly a better player?

What's the point of Konate when you're supposed develop the shooter in Mo Wagner? Bol Bol is supposed to go lottery.

Drafting for specific skill sets doesn't guarantee that the player is better than another. We drafted shooting. We missed on SO MANY.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:56 am    Post subject:

I'm not claiming that Svi will be a Lowry or Steph quality player.

I'm saying if we ran plays for him and let him shoot that he could provide some of the 3 point firepower to spread our offense for the bigs to find more penetration.

I really think he will be good if people gave him the chance.

As far as Konate goes... I want to see how he does this year... if he improves he probably won't be available to us anyway.

If we are low first round... my mind is open, but I want a rim protector unless someone incredible falls into our lap.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:02 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
I'm not claiming that Svi will be a Lowry or Steph quality player.

I'm saying if we ran plays for him and let him shoot that he could provide some of the 3 point firepower to spread our offense for the bigs to find more penetration.

I really think he will be good if people gave him the chance.

As far as Konate goes... I want to see how he does this year... if he improves he probably won't be available to us anyway.

If we are low first round... my mind is open, but I want a rim protector unless someone incredible falls into our lap.


I don't have the time to pull tape, but Svi has had good looks out there. Offense isn't even really the issue, especially when Lonzo and Hart are holding the team's overall 3-point shooting on life support.

The part I'm more frustrated by with Wagner is even with how dominant he was with PPP in the half-court, his shooting isn't showing at the G-League level yet. So now I'm just hoping he moves his feet, takes charges, and boxes out just to stay on the floor.

Actual rim protection isn't even the issue. The Lakers are good there. They're terrible with perimeter defense and allowing dribble penetration or overhelping or not even helping at all. They give up a ridiculous amount of points in the paint because of that. That isn't a McGee problem. He's contesting everything. That's DEFINITELY a Rondo, Hart, and whoever is playing 4 problem.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:09 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
I'm not claiming that Svi will be a Lowry or Steph quality player.

I'm saying if we ran plays for him and let him shoot that he could provide some of the 3 point firepower to spread our offense for the bigs to find more penetration.

I really think he will be good if people gave him the chance.

As far as Konate goes... I want to see how he does this year... if he improves he probably won't be available to us anyway.

If we are low first round... my mind is open, but I want a rim protector unless someone incredible falls into our lap.


I don't have the time to pull tape, but Svi has had good looks out there. Offense isn't even really the issue, especially when Lonzo and Hart are holding the team's overall 3-point shooting on life support.

The part I'm more frustrated by with Wagner is even with how dominant he was with PPP in the half-court, his shooting isn't showing at the G-League level yet. So now I'm just hoping he moves his feet, takes charges, and boxes out just to stay on the floor.

Actual rim protection isn't even the issue. The Lakers are good there. They're terrible with perimeter defense and allowing dribble penetration or overhelping or not even helping at all. They give up a ridiculous amount of points in the paint because of that. That isn't a McGee problem. He's contesting everything. That's DEFINITELY a Rondo, Hart, and whoever is playing 4 problem.


I'm aware that JaVale has been the only saving grace... but the fact that he's good for only 20 strong minutes is why I want another one.

The LBJ/Kuzma combo has been especially atrocious... but if we had a Konate to spell McGee... we could win simply by outscoring the opposition.

I'm hoping Tyson still has a good season left in him... if so, we should be okay this year.

Svi has had 7 shots... and yes most have been good looks so he simply choked. It's not a "my arms are too short so I can't get off my shot issue"... it's a "I'm new to the league and want to make it so I'm nervous as F issue."

Klay was under 20% for his first 7 games shooting 36 times. The next game he set the record for threes.

Just keep feeding him and giving him the green light and he will pay dividends.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:12 am    Post subject:

so zion looks like the real deal

top 5 athlete in the NBA from day 1

ahead of blake griffin by age in explosiveness/athleticism, jumper, and handle

what an absolute monster and match up nightmare.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:25 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Svi has had 7 shots... and yes most have been good looks so he simply choked. It's not a "my arms are too short so I can't get off my shot issue"... it's a "I'm new to the league and want to make it so I'm nervous as F issue."


Svi isn't Klay. Klay doesn't have the same wingspan issues.

Every time Svi is open, I just watch the contest. Defenders practically give him a high five at the release point. That's just enough to distort the shot. Can he fix it? Yeah. Do I think he's nervous? Not really. Do shooters need time to develop? Usually at 1-4 years.

Landry Shamet had the same problem when shooting with motion. PHI just gave him the same spot ups with more volume. Easier to do with Embiid and Simmons.

Just making a point that drafting a shooter, doesn't guarantee immediate results.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:33 am    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
so zion looks like the real deal

top 5 athlete in the NBA from day 1

ahead of blake griffin by age in explosiveness/athleticism, jumper, and handle

what an absolute monster and match up nightmare.



THIS guy is going to be unstoppable. Next Lebron. I think your going to see a LOT of tanking this year for him. Look out for Cleveland and Phoenix
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:50 am    Post subject:

textbook wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
so zion looks like the real deal

top 5 athlete in the NBA from day 1

ahead of blake griffin by age in explosiveness/athleticism, jumper, and handle

what an absolute monster and match up nightmare.



THIS guy is going to be unstoppable. Next Lebron. I think your going to see a LOT of tanking this year for him. Look out for Cleveland and Phoenix


Booker , Ayton, Jackson and Zion would be sick!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:51 am    Post subject:

textbook wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
so zion looks like the real deal

top 5 athlete in the NBA from day 1

ahead of blake griffin by age in explosiveness/athleticism, jumper, and handle

what an absolute monster and match up nightmare.



THIS guy is going to be unstoppable. Next Lebron. I think your going to see a LOT of tanking this year for him. Look out for Cleveland and Phoenix


Built like Granmama with an young Barkley ups.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:57 am    Post subject:

That Duke team is the most unfair college team I have ever seen. Almost if not their entire lineup are top 10 picks in the draft. 2 of them are top 3 picks.

Zion should not be in College. It is a complete joke to see him waste a year of not being in the NBA.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:04 am    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
so zion looks like the real deal

top 5 athlete in the NBA from day 1

ahead of blake griffin by age in explosiveness/athleticism, jumper, and handle

what an absolute monster and match up nightmare.

you can argue he is already the best athlete in NBA now, from a physical standpoint, he is like Shaq/Lebron type. 285 lbs with 45 inch vertical? handles the ball, passes the ball, if he can improve his shooting, look out NBA
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:09 am    Post subject:

Megaton wrote:
That Duke team is the most unfair college team I have ever seen. Almost if not their entire lineup are top 10 picks in the draft. 2 of them are top 3 picks.

Zion should not be in College. It is a complete joke to see him waste a year of not being in the NBA.


He’s NBA ready. He remind me of freak athlete version of Rodney Rogers.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:11 am    Post subject:

Megaton wrote:
That Duke team is the most unfair college team I have ever seen. Almost if not their entire lineup are top 10 picks in the draft. 2 of them are top 3 picks.

Zion should not be in College. It is a complete joke to see him waste a year of not being in the NBA.


they're going to smash everyone come tourney time. Top 3 picks all on the same team? Good god.

RJ and Zion look like NBA stars one day. Cam looks like he will be one of those high level pieces on a great team.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:12 am    Post subject:

Megaton wrote:
That Duke team is the most unfair college team I have ever seen. Almost if not their entire lineup are top 10 picks in the draft. 2 of them are top 3 picks.

Zion should not be in College. It is a complete joke to see him waste a year of not being in the NBA.


Wait until he gets on an NBA strength training program.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:43 pm    Post subject:

I envy the team that drafts RJ Barrett

Hes incredible. Superstar written all over him.
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