No rebounds, no rings
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:08 pm    Post subject:

splashmtn wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Losing Randle was a considerable loss in terms of rebounding, but otherwise, Lopez boxed out on behalf of the team but didn't grab a high defensive rebound number. The team rebounds as a unit.


losing randle, gaining lebron.

it's a wash in the rebounding category. in addition a good 1 of randle's 2 offensive boards was him rebounding his own miss.
lopez avg 4 a game at like 20 mins + per game. javale averaged 2.6 at 10 mins per game. you do the math. we didnt lose a thing in rebounding.


Wow, really, I guess we'll just have LeBron do everything then.

It's not a wash. Unlike JaVale, Lopez boxes out, hence his teams tend to be among the elite teams in rebounding, despite Lopez himself looking like a sub-average rebounder.

I did the math. 3% difference between LeBron vs. Randle, but I guess we want LeBron to rebound, then run the offense, then create the play, and then have someone else shoot? Now who boxes out? At least Hart had help with Lopez. It's not really Lonzo, it's definitely not LeBron, JaVale, Stephenson, Rondo, etc. All these dudes rebound by reach.

Yeah, let's burn out those wheels within 20 games. Brilliant.

My favorite part is Tristan Thompson, LeBron, Kevin Love, and Larry Nance Jr...

Yet Cleveland is the bottom 1/3rd in the league in total rebounding. They had to make up for terrible defense and bad rebounding with a semblance of good 3-point shooting and being a top 10 FT shooting team.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:21 pm    Post subject:

How much gravity does LeBron create by making bigs come away from the rim to guard him?

I liked Julius but I think you are giving him a little too much credit here.

Same with Lopez... though I agree he screened out defenders and rebounders his reflexes moved at a glacial pace.

I think the point was good that we cannot wear out LBJ by making him do everything... but I just don't see how his superior passing and outside shooting doesn't move the bigs out towards the perimeter and away from the rim.

Let's see what happens, but it's hard to see how the sky is falling in terms of our rebounding capabilities.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:48 pm    Post subject:

You should worry more about freethrows.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:00 pm    Post subject: Re: No rebounds, no rings

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
slavavov wrote:
Am I the only one who's concerned about rebounding, especially defensive rebounding? How will we be able to run teams out of the gym if we're not good at that?


I am less concerned with defensive rebounding than with interior defense in general. It is a mistake to conflate the two. Just because you have a rebounding big man (say, Kevin Love in his Minneapolis days) does not mean that you are a good defensive rebounding team. A defensive rebound can go anywhere. Everyone has a role in getting the rebounds. You can be a good rebounding team without a dominant big man.

Interior defense is a different kettle of fish. JaVale McGee hasn't averaged more than 11.5 mpg since 2014. On a per 36 basis, he averaged 5.3 fouls per game last year. That's disturbing.

It isn't necessarily a question of opposing centers lighting it up against us. There aren't that many teams who can play that way in this era. People forget that post entry passes are not simple, and most centers are picked for their defense anyway. However, we may have zero rim protection. Some of our games may turn into layup drills for the other team.

That's the possibility that disturbs me, not the rebounding issue.

That's a good point. Some of the responses have encouraged me, but there are some good centers coming into their own now, like Nurkic, Jokic and Gobert. They may not be big scorers, but they're widebody centers who grab many rebounds. I wonder if we can still limit the other team to one shot when we're playing against one of those guys.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:00 am    Post subject:

We were the 2nd team in rpg last year with Randle as the only major rebounder in the team.

We lost him and added LeBron and Rondo, while also having Lonzo and Hart who are strong rebounders for guards too. McGee will also get his on limited minutes, while we should see improvement from Ingram and Kuzma on that department (Kuzma already showed better rebounding late last season).

We should be fine.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:44 am    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
Lonzo and Hart both MONSTER rebounders at their positions.


This. The rebounding edge will come from the guards (Rondo too).

None of Riley's Laker teams had a double digit rebounder. Maybe that was why he felt the need to emphasize its importance. They rebounded as a team, in which they were aided by Magic's great rebounding from the guard position.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:59 am    Post subject:

Rebounding will need to be a collective team effort. I think they are capable of being a good rebounding team. This is where not re-signing Randle will hurt the most though. His relentless rebounding energy will not be replaced by James. It will have to be replaced by a concerted team effort every play.

Lakers have multiple good rebounding guards in Ball, Rondo, KCP and Hart. That makes a big difference in securing the rebound and getting on the break.

They will need Ingram and Kuz to become more of a factor. Especially Ingram with his length. But both seem capable of doing so. Beasley and Stephenson both can be energetic rebounders when motivated. Hoping this year they are.

The center position should be able to be productive. The committee of McGee and Zubac should be at least average. If Wagner ever gets playing time he is hard working. We’ll see if that leads to actual rebounds

James will get his rebounds. Too big, athletic and old man wily not to.

Overall I’m speculating they will be borderline top 10 rebounding team. But it should be a concern until they prove they can do it.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:26 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:

Yeah, let's burn out those wheels within 20 games. Brilliant.

Sarcastic name calling doesn't help with civility.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:35 am    Post subject:

this should be the number one ability the players most likely to play center (Mcgee, Zubac, Mo) should be honing in on and it doesnt even really require any God given abilities or innate skills... BOXING OUT.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: No rebounds, no rings

slavavov wrote:

Am I the only one who's concerned about rebounding, especially defensive rebounding? How will we be able to run teams out of the gym if we're not good at that?


The Lakers were the 2nd best rebounding team in the league last season. They lost Randle and Lopez; their rebounding is replaced by Lebron and Rondo. What is the problem?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: No rebounds, no rings

RG73 wrote:
slavavov wrote:

Am I the only one who's concerned about rebounding, especially defensive rebounding? How will we be able to run teams out of the gym if we're not good at that?


The Lakers were the 2nd best rebounding team in the league last season. They lost Randle and Lopez; their rebounding is replaced by Lebron and Rondo. What is the problem?

It's LG there is always a problem
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:24 pm    Post subject: Re: No rebounds, no rings

slavavov wrote:
As much as I'm starting to love this Laker roster (at least on paper), I'm somewhat concerned about defense and rebounding. I think we'll be a great offensive team and average 110-115 a game. It also looks like Magic, Pelinka and Walton want us to be a hard core running team.

But as Pat Riley told Magic's showtime teams, no rebounds, no rings. Besides maybe Lebron, who else on this team is a good rebounder? Maybe McGee when he's in, but he can't play major minutes. I don't know if we can count on Zubac to do anything meaningful. Ball is a good rebounder for a guard, but he only good for about 6-7 rebounds a game. You can't run if you don't have the ball.

I also wonder if Magic and Pelinka are disregarding the center position and counting on having forwards just masquerading at the 5 for major minutes long term. If I'm them, then either next summer or by the trade deadline I'm looking to sign a C who is a good rebounder and rim protector, unless Zubac becomes exactly that this season. They don't necessarily need a Deandre Jordan or Clint Capela, but maybe someone who's on the next level down in those two departments.

Am I the only one who's concerned about rebounding, especially defensive rebounding? How will we be able to run teams out of the gym if we're not good at that?


You do realize that Zo, Rondo, Hart, KCP (not to mention LBJ) are quite possibly the greatest group of rebounding guards in NBA history.

We're talking an average of over 20 rebounds per game from our guards...what other team can make that claim? Hell we couldn't even make that claim with Magic in his prime.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:25 pm    Post subject:

Annihilator wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:

Yeah, let's burn out those wheels within 20 games. Brilliant.

Sarcastic name calling doesn't help with civility.


Neither does speaking the truth.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:26 pm    Post subject:

Goldenwest wrote:
You should worry more about freethrows.


Real Talk.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject:

CervantesRises wrote:
Annihilator wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:

Yeah, let's burn out those wheels within 20 games. Brilliant.

Sarcastic name calling doesn't help with civility.


Neither does speaking the truth.



Speculation at best!

"Burn those wheels within 20 games" ... definitely sarcasm. Here's hoping its unfounded
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:51 pm    Post subject:

Goldenwest wrote:
You should worry more about freethrows.


No free throws, no Finals. How bout that?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: No rebounds, no rings

CervantesRises wrote:
slavavov wrote:
As much as I'm starting to love this Laker roster (at least on paper), I'm somewhat concerned about defense and rebounding. I think we'll be a great offensive team and average 110-115 a game. It also looks like Magic, Pelinka and Walton want us to be a hard core running team.

But as Pat Riley told Magic's showtime teams, no rebounds, no rings. Besides maybe Lebron, who else on this team is a good rebounder? Maybe McGee when he's in, but he can't play major minutes. I don't know if we can count on Zubac to do anything meaningful. Ball is a good rebounder for a guard, but he only good for about 6-7 rebounds a game. You can't run if you don't have the ball.

I also wonder if Magic and Pelinka are disregarding the center position and counting on having forwards just masquerading at the 5 for major minutes long term. If I'm them, then either next summer or by the trade deadline I'm looking to sign a C who is a good rebounder and rim protector, unless Zubac becomes exactly that this season. They don't necessarily need a Deandre Jordan or Clint Capela, but maybe someone who's on the next level down in those two departments.

Am I the only one who's concerned about rebounding, especially defensive rebounding? How will we be able to run teams out of the gym if we're not good at that?


You do realize that Zo, Rondo, Hart, KCP (not to mention LBJ) are quite possibly the greatest group of rebounding guards in NBA history.

We're talking an average of over 20 rebounds per game from our guards...what other team can make that claim? Hell we couldn't even make that claim with Magic in his prime.


Yep, Ball and Rondo alone can get us dozens of rebs every game, the more concerning aspect for this team is how well they end up shooting the 3 ball and also making the FTs when the game is in the balance, rebounding should be the least of our concerns.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: No rebounds, no rings

Inspector Gadget wrote:

Yep, Ball and Rondo alone can get us dozens of rebs every game, the more concerning aspect for this team is how well they end up shooting the 3 ball and also making the FTs when the game is in the balance, rebounding should be the least of our concerns.

I think Mike is right here in terms of being concerned about next year's rebounding. There are aspects of basketball that are individual (shooting free throws, for example). There are other aspects that require a team. Blocking out for rebounds doesn't always help the person doing it, in terms of stats, but it does help the team effort. Randle does not get as many rebounds as he did last year without the help of his teammates. While guards can certainly help in terms of rebounds it is certainly useful to have a forward or a center who does it very well. Most championship teams have such players. Expecting Lebron to do everything will, in fact, tire him out early in the season (and make it more likely that he gets injured).

There are a lot of unknowns going into the new year. What may have been true last year may not be true this next year. Rebounds that were available to our guards last year may not be available this year. Personally, while I hope the Lakers are one of the best rebounding teams in the NBA next year, I don't think it is a foregone conclusion.

It is going to be very interesting to see what the Lakers become this year. I expect to be both surprised and disappointed.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:47 pm    Post subject: Re: No rebounds, no rings

RG73 wrote:
slavavov wrote:

Am I the only one who's concerned about rebounding, especially defensive rebounding? How will we be able to run teams out of the gym if we're not good at that?


The Lakers were the 2nd best rebounding team in the league last season. They lost Randle and Lopez; their rebounding is replaced by Lebron and Rondo. What is the problem?

I hope Lebron and Rondo make up what we lost in rebounding, but I'm not sure. Randle is a true rebounder, and as Mike@LG pointed out, Lopez would box out to help his teammates grab rebounds.

Do we want Lebron to focus so much on rebounding at this point of his career? We should be playing him on the wing instead of having him be the push man most of the time. Also we need to conserve Lebron as much as possible to give ourselves the best chance of winning as many titles as we can with him.

I really hope Zubac emerges as that rebounder and rim defender we need so that we can neutralize those widebody centers when we face them.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:48 pm    Post subject: Re: No rebounds, no rings

Annihilator wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:

Yep, Ball and Rondo alone can get us dozens of rebs every game, the more concerning aspect for this team is how well they end up shooting the 3 ball and also making the FTs when the game is in the balance, rebounding should be the least of our concerns.

I think Mike is right here in terms of being concerned about next year's rebounding. There are aspects of basketball that are individual (shooting free throws, for example). There are other aspects that require a team. Blocking out for rebounds doesn't always help the person doing it, in terms of stats, but it does help the team effort. Randle does not get as many rebounds as he did last year without the help of his teammates. While guards can certainly help in terms of rebounds it is certainly useful to have a forward or a center who does it very well. Most championship teams have such players. Expecting Lebron to do everything will, in fact, tire him out early in the season (and make it more likely that he gets injured).

There are a lot of unknowns going into the new year. What may have been true last year may not be true this next year. Rebounds that were available to our guards last year may not be available this year. Personally, while I hope the Lakers are one of the best rebounding teams in the NBA next year, I don't think it is a foregone conclusion.

It is going to be very interesting to see what the Lakers become this year. I expect to be both surprised and disappointed.


If the players don’t give up on plays and bring effort.. there will be plenty of opportunities to get rebounds rather it’s a defensive rebound or a offensive rebound, most of the players on the roster are hard workers and don’t have a questionable work-ethic.. the rebounding effort will be there.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:26 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Losing Randle was a considerable loss in terms of rebounding, but otherwise, Lopez boxed out on behalf of the team but didn't grab a high defensive rebound number. The team rebounds as a unit.


losing randle, gaining lebron.

it's a wash in the rebounding category. in addition a good 1 of randle's 2 offensive boards was him rebounding his own miss.
lopez avg 4 a game at like 20 mins + per game. javale averaged 2.6 at 10 mins per game. you do the math. we didnt lose a thing in rebounding.


Wow, really, I guess we'll just have LeBron do everything then.

It's not a wash. Unlike JaVale, Lopez boxes out, hence his teams tend to be among the elite teams in rebounding, despite Lopez himself looking like a sub-average rebounder.

I did the math. 3% difference between LeBron vs. Randle, but I guess we want LeBron to rebound, then run the offense, then create the play, and then have someone else shoot? Now who boxes out? At least Hart had help with Lopez. It's not really Lonzo, it's definitely not LeBron, JaVale, Stephenson, Rondo, etc. All these dudes rebound by reach.

Yeah, let's burn out those wheels within 20 games. Brilliant.

My favorite part is Tristan Thompson, LeBron, Kevin Love, and Larry Nance Jr...

Yet Cleveland is the bottom 1/3rd in the league in total rebounding. They had to make up for terrible defense and bad rebounding with a semblance of good 3-point shooting and being a top 10 FT shooting team.
slow down mike, slow down.

bron on the cavs had to do it all why? because there were no other playmakers on that team. We have multiple on the lakers right now.

I can say without blinking. we
have 2 elite playmakers in Zo and rondo.

James to my knowledge has never ever played with elite playmakers that love to pass first. dwade was a darn good playmaker but his instinct is to score first. chalmers was not a playmaker he was a guard with good handles that could lock people up on defense and hit that open 3. which is why bron and wade was constantly cursing him out. he would make boneheaded plays to be a pg all the time.

So right there alone. bron no longer has to be the primary playmaker.

and I havent mentioned the fact we have a team of good passers in general if you add in BI, Hart, and even kuz.

Lebron on the cavs was the "athletic guy" on the team. yes jr smith could jump but he stopped dunking on people years ago. I dont think anyone on that cavs team would even consider themselves fast or quick. we have both on this team. we have athletes that will get out ahead of bron and run the floor for scores.

So yes, bron can box his man out, grab a board, pass it to rondo, zo, or BI, and allow them to make an extra pass for a basket, or hit them in stride for a basket.

bron will already be closer to the basket on offense more than usual due to him playing more in the post. so he wont have to run from the top of the key down to the paint to snag a board then turn, then push, then finish or setup guys. mr do all, no longer has to spend 82 games doing every thing. thats the beauty of him being on this team with our current roster.

dont worry about the rebounding Mike. we wont have an issue in that area. because anytime we start feeling like one PF or big is out boarding us. We will then and only then ask superman bron to help on the glass. but that also means zo will be down there helping, kcp, hart,, ingram, etc. these dudes are darn good rebounders for their positions. Zo can snag 6 to 8 with his eyes closed. and funny thing is, he actually boxes out better than some bigs of today. he learned the fundamentals of boxing out even though he's rail thin.
But i get your point. dont burn him out. and I'm saying as long as bron is ready for the old man vet game transition. the young dudes have his back to do everything else. we will only need him when its crunch time, vs very high level teams(only a handful of these.) and in the playoffs. bron can literally kick it for the other games and just take his time and not over do it.


**let me add. At least when i type in javale mcgee rebounding, a video of him teaching people how to properly box out and rebound is on youtube. if i type in rebounding for brook lopez. the first few things that pop up regarding his rebounding are people clowning him for having a game with zero rebounds or very little. sure its youtube. but that is a sad thing to be known for and that was pre lakers. doesnt mean he didnt box out for the team. he did...at times. but he was never a good rebounder for us or great at boxing out for us. he was ok. for a dude his size/height. he should've easily avg 10 a game while also helping the team box out. but he didnt. we know why javale can't grab a ton, he has asthma so he doesnt play a ton of mins.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject:

Goldenwest wrote:
You should worry more about freethrows.
This is by far my #1 worry. i think this team will do everything else well. shooting 3's will be all over the place. but the ft's. that might hurt us in close games or make some games close that never should've been close.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: No rebounds, no rings

CervantesRises wrote:
slavavov wrote:
As much as I'm starting to love this Laker roster (at least on paper), I'm somewhat concerned about defense and rebounding. I think we'll be a great offensive team and average 110-115 a game. It also looks like Magic, Pelinka and Walton want us to be a hard core running team.

But as Pat Riley told Magic's showtime teams, no rebounds, no rings. Besides maybe Lebron, who else on this team is a good rebounder? Maybe McGee when he's in, but he can't play major minutes. I don't know if we can count on Zubac to do anything meaningful. Ball is a good rebounder for a guard, but he only good for about 6-7 rebounds a game. You can't run if you don't have the ball.

I also wonder if Magic and Pelinka are disregarding the center position and counting on having forwards just masquerading at the 5 for major minutes long term. If I'm them, then either next summer or by the trade deadline I'm looking to sign a C who is a good rebounder and rim protector, unless Zubac becomes exactly that this season. They don't necessarily need a Deandre Jordan or Clint Capela, but maybe someone who's on the next level down in those two departments.

Am I the only one who's concerned about rebounding, especially defensive rebounding? How will we be able to run teams out of the gym if we're not good at that?


You do realize that Zo, Rondo, Hart, KCP (not to mention LBJ) are quite possibly the greatest group of rebounding guards in NBA history.

We're talking an average of over 20 rebounds per game from our guards...what other team can make that claim? Hell we couldn't even make that claim with Magic in his prime.


I dont think people realized how well our guards could board. like really really well. I noticed at a point where hart was getting more burn along with kcp post jail stint. if there was a rebound that was anyway shape or form up for grabs. these 2 along with zo were snagging it. pure and simple. it was kuz that had to not run out as much so he could pad his rebounding stats as a PF. and again, these dudes were not just using their quicks and athletic ability which is what you normally see when a coach tells his guards to help out on the glass. its usually their quicks and hops that can get to the ball. but they usually dont box out well since they are not used to playing downlow with the big boys. zo boxes out like he's a pf, i've seen kcp box out quite a bit, same with strong josh hart. so these guards are fundamentally sound rebounders and they are athletic enough and they Like to go snag the boards vs just running out for an easy score. Its because all 3 of those guys games blossom if they snag and push.

KCP snag and push = kcp transition 3 or he can blow by you with his athleticism.

JOsh hart snag and push = going to the rack and finishing thru contact(in the spl he was pulling up for transition 3's too in these scenarios, hope it translates.)

Zo-rushing the ball up the court to hit an open teammate or to score quickly himself. he thrives on the fastbreak.

The same can be said for rondo.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:08 am    Post subject:

MIke and others. lets take a look at last years stats. and this is just to prove you can team rebound and out rebound the monsters. meaning even if those monsters get their rebs. your team can win the rebounding battle. which in turn means we dont need a rebounding monster at PF or C.




Teams Tracking Rebounds:

https://stats.nba.com/teams/rebounding/?sort=REB&dir=1

Player Tracking Rebounds:
https://stats.nba.com/players/rebounding/?sort=REB&dir=1

Notice the lakers are #2 on the first list as a team. Yet not 1 laker is in the top 15 as a player. shoot there wasnt a laker in the top 25. Ju was like 27th. The next person was Zo at like 45th or so.

If you look at a team like charlotte who had dwight who was in the top 10. you then look at the lakers and you realize the next best rebounder for charlotte was at like 5rebs and change. well if you look at the lakers, the 2nd best rebounder is our point at 7 rebs per game. the next guy was kuzma at 6, the next BI at 5, KCP at 5, josh hart at 4. But the perimeter guys all had double digit rebounding nights multiple times or were sitting on 8 to 9 boards. that tells me these dudes are for real about that glass and this the key. its not normal to have perimeter guys having multiple double digit rebounding nights and all of those guys are all on the same team.

rebounding will not be our issue even with the loss of lopez and ju, while gaining lbj, javale, rondo, and stephenson.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:32 am    Post subject:

splashmtn wrote:
MIke and others. lets take a look at last years stats. and this is just to prove you can team rebound and out rebound the monsters. meaning even if those monsters get their rebs. your team can win the rebounding battle. which in turn means we dont need a rebounding monster at PF or C.


That's true, but it cuts both ways. Rebounding is a team project that requires everyone to fulfill their role. But who is going to fill the role that was played by Lopez and Randle last year? We shall see.
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