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Aeneas Hunter
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 Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Hector can argue his own point, and you with him. Stick with me here, and the arguments you have made that I’m addressing. Your assertion is that who Kaepernick is (a disgruntled guy who is by your implication not genuinely protesting what he’s protesting) and the manner in which he’s protesting (kneeling during the national anthem) and the duration of the protests are the reason people (at least reasonable people, I believe you would allow that racists would hate such a protest in any form) are divided. I’m positing that those are not really the issues at play. What is dividing people is the content of the protest. And I posited a protest by Kaepernick doing the same thing that the vast swaths of the same people who are disgusted by him would either not mind or totally support, as an illustration of this position. |
That’s your point? Well, sure. Content and form are connected. I’m still struggling to understand why you think I’m saying something different. It was Hector who did that. I think you may just be misconstruing my response to JMK about what is divisive in the Nike ad. When Nike selected the image of Kaepernick, it was choosing to play on divisiveness. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:05 am Post subject: |
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Nike was choosing to play on the side of a man asking for a great social wrong to be ended. And the divide is the fact that there are people who either don’t want that wrong to end, or simply don’t care to be constantly reminded of it, or both. Whether anime or Kaepernick have ancillary motives or agendas is immaterial in the same way that kneeling at the anthem is. They are just like the accusations of adultery against Dr. King. A means to change the narrative and demean the protest so as to not have to acquiesce to it. The fact that Nike is doing this means they are either stupid, or that what KP has started has taken root.
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:03 am Post subject: |
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To "divisive" is to intentionally fracture a group of people my malicious design. That is not Kaepernick nor Nike's intent. Something is not divisive simply because someone doesn't like it. This is especially true when the people who take exception distort and misrepresent the action in oder to justify their displeasure.
Kaep and Nike are not being divisive at all. They are simply expressing a message that is the very opposite of division.
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JerryMagicKobe
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | They are simply expressing a message that is the very opposite of division. |
That is what the ad says to me as well. |
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Hector can argue his own point, and you with him. Stick with me here, and the arguments you have made that I’m addressing. Your assertion is that who Kaepernick is (a disgruntled guy who is by your implication not genuinely protesting what he’s protesting) and the manner in which he’s protesting (kneeling during the national anthem) and the duration of the protests are the reason people (at least reasonable people, I believe you would allow that racists would hate such a protest in any form) are divided. I’m positing that those are not really the issues at play. What is dividing people is the content of the protest. And I posited a protest by Kaepernick doing the same thing that the vast swaths of the same people who are disgusted by him would either not mind or totally support, as an illustration of this position. |
That’s your point? Well, sure. Content and form are connected. I’m still struggling to understand why you think I’m saying something different. It was Hector who did that. I think you may just be misconstruing my response to JMK about what is divisive in the Nike ad. When Nike selected the image of Kaepernick, it was choosing to play on divisiveness. |
who's divided by the Kaep protest? be honest. Name names. WHO feels divided?
I'm telling you right now. I'm a black man and I dont feel divided at all about it. So next up??? who supposedly feels divided by this? 
Ask me if me if nike should care about racist white supremacists feelings?
There is no such thing as not dividing those type of people from those that are not like those type of people. Unless those type of people decide to change on their own. They are morally corrupt. Change your ways and then we can sit down and have a beer together. Until then, you stay over there talking about you hate my protest. and I'll stay over here kneeling before football games. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:33 am Post subject: |
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TBH I wish Nike had chosen another face. The message is to important to be smothered by controversy. Where Kaep goes controversy follows. They may as well have used Caitlyn Jenner.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Nike was choosing to play on the side of a man asking for a great social wrong to be ended. And the divide is the fact that there are people who either don’t want that wrong to end, or simply don’t care to be constantly reminded of it, or both. Whether anime or Kaepernick have ancillary motives or agendas is immaterial in the same way that kneeling at the anthem is. They are just like the accusations of adultery against Dr. King. A means to change the narrative and demean the protest so as to not have to acquiesce to it. The fact that Nike is doing this means they are either stupid, or that what KP has started has taken root. |
So you approve of the divisiveness. That’s cool. I doesn’t surprise me, because you are aligned with one of the warring factions. The left and the right are both addicted to divisiveness. My grievance with Nike is that they are using it as a marketing tool. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| splashmtn wrote: | I'm a black man and I dont feel divided at all about it. So next up??? who supposedly feels divided by this?
Ask me if me if nike should care about racist white supremacists feelings? |
See my response to 24. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | My grievance with Nike is that they are using it as a marketing tool. |
This is along the lines of what Dave Zirin was saying in his podcast. That Nike has corporatized a revolution. Of course AH/Zirin come from different political spectrums but interestingly reach a similar conclusion.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Nike was choosing to play on the side of a man asking for a great social wrong to be ended. And the divide is the fact that there are people who either don’t want that wrong to end, or simply don’t care to be constantly reminded of it, or both. Whether anime or Kaepernick have ancillary motives or agendas is immaterial in the same way that kneeling at the anthem is. They are just like the accusations of adultery against Dr. King. A means to change the narrative and demean the protest so as to not have to acquiesce to it. The fact that Nike is doing this means they are either stupid, or that what KP has started has taken root. |
So you approve of the divisiveness. That’s cool. I doesn’t surprise me, because you are aligned with one of the warring factions. The left and the right are both addicted to divisiveness. My grievance with Nike is that they are using it as a marketing tool. |
The divisiveness is the treatment of black Americans by the police, and the fact that people would rather attack the messengers of this by whatever means possible than fix it, or even listen to it. Protest is always divisive, because if it wasn't there wouldn't be anything to protest.
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governator
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | My grievance with Nike is that they are using it as a marketing tool. |
This is along the lines of what Dave Zirin was saying in his podcast. That Nike has corporatized a revolution. Of course AH/Zirin come from different political spectrums but interestingly reach a similar conclusion. |
have a hard left friend who said the same thing |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:45 am Post subject: |
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splashmtn wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Hector can argue his own point, and you with him. Stick with me here, and the arguments you have made that I’m addressing. Your assertion is that who Kaepernick is (a disgruntled guy who is by your implication not genuinely protesting what he’s protesting) and the manner in which he’s protesting (kneeling during the national anthem) and the duration of the protests are the reason people (at least reasonable people, I believe you would allow that racists would hate such a protest in any form) are divided. I’m positing that those are not really the issues at play. What is dividing people is the content of the protest. And I posited a protest by Kaepernick doing the same thing that the vast swaths of the same people who are disgusted by him would either not mind or totally support, as an illustration of this position. |
That’s your point? Well, sure. Content and form are connected. I’m still struggling to understand why you think I’m saying something different. It was Hector who did that. I think you may just be misconstruing my response to JMK about what is divisive in the Nike ad. When Nike selected the image of Kaepernick, it was choosing to play on divisiveness. |
| Quote: | | who's divided by the Kaep protest? be honest. Name names. WHO feels divided? |
those who oppose kneeling and those who don't.
| Quote: | I'm telling you right now. I'm a black man and I dont feel divided at all about it. So next up??? who supposedly feels divided by this?
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I'm also a Black man. I look at the message and choose the side that understands the reason for kneeling. In that grace, I'm divided.
| Quote: | Ask me if me if nike should care about racist white supremacists feelings?
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Yes as should all America.
| Quote: | | There is no such thing as not dividing those type of people from those that are not like those type of people. Unless those type of people decide to change on their own. They are morally corrupt. Change your ways and then we can sit down and have a beer together. Until then, you stay over there talking about you hate my protest. and I'll stay over here kneeling before football games. |
 
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | My grievance with Nike is that they are using it as a marketing tool. |
This is along the lines of what Dave Zirin was saying in his podcast. That Nike has corporatized a revolution. Of course AH/Zirin come from different political spectrums but interestingly reach a similar conclusion. |
Don't be so sure about that. I'm not a social conservative just because I don't adhere to the world view of the folks from the echo chamber. We have a lot of outrage junkies on both sides of the political specrtrum. If you don't share the constant state of outrage, you become the enemy. |
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JerryMagicKobe
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Nike was choosing to play on the side of a man asking for a great social wrong to be ended. And the divide is the fact that there are people who either don’t want that wrong to end, or simply don’t care to be constantly reminded of it, or both. Whether anime or Kaepernick have ancillary motives or agendas is immaterial in the same way that kneeling at the anthem is. They are just like the accusations of adultery against Dr. King. A means to change the narrative and demean the protest so as to not have to acquiesce to it. The fact that Nike is doing this means they are either stupid, or that what KP has started has taken root. |
So you approve of the divisiveness. That’s cool. I doesn’t surprise me, because you are aligned with one of the warring factions. The left and the right are both addicted to divisiveness. My grievance with Nike is that they are using it as a marketing tool. |
The divisiveness is the treatment of black Americans by the police, and the fact that people would rather attack the messengers of this by whatever means possible than fix it, or even listen to it. Protest is always divisive, because if it wasn't there wouldn't be anything to protest. |
Police shot black people, and then people said they don't want to cops to shoot black people, and then more people joined the chorus, and then Kap took a knee, and then the NFL said they don't want Kap or his knee, and then Nike featured Kap in a commercial
and then here we are talking about the damn commercial. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | My grievance with Nike is that they are using it as a marketing tool. |
This is along the lines of what Dave Zirin was saying in his podcast. That Nike has corporatized a revolution. Of course AH/Zirin come from different political spectrums but interestingly reach a similar conclusion. |
Don't be so sure about that. I'm not a social conservative just because I don't adhere to the world view of the folks from the echo chamber. We have a lot of outrage junkies on both sides of the political specrtrum. If you don't share the constant state of outrage, you become the enemy. |
From my limited knowledge of you, would it be fair to say you are a libertarian?
I don't peg you as a hardline conservative or liberal.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If you don't share the constant state of outrage, you become the enemy. |
Excessive policing/brutality against black/brown folks is something to be outraged about.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | From my limited knowledge of you, would it be fair to say you are a libertarian?
I don't peg you as a hardline conservative or liberal. |
I think of myself as a moderate. I tend to be left of center on social issues and right of center on economic issues (especially the budget). I do tend toward libertarianism, but I avoid that term because it has been co-opted by right wing lunatics who think that laws should not apply to them. Also, the economic underpinnings of libertarianism got taken to silly extremes by certain people in the Chicago School. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | If you don't share the constant state of outrage, you become the enemy. |
Excessive policing/brutality against black/brown folks is something to be outraged about. |
Eh. For the folks in the echo chambers, there is always something to be outraged about. They get up in the morning, turn on the news, and get outraged. It's like a drug. For a time, Fox News gained hegemony in the news industry by peddling outrage. Now MSNBC and CNN are serving it up to the left. And, of relevance to this thread, Nike is joining the circus. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | If you don't share the constant state of outrage, you become the enemy. |
Excessive policing/brutality against black/brown folks is something to be outraged about. |
Eh. For the folks in the echo chambers, there is always something to be outraged about. They get up in the morning, turn on the news, and get outraged. It's like a drug. For a time, Fox News gained hegemony in the news industry by peddling outrage. Now MSNBC and CNN are serving it up to the left. And, of relevance to this thread, Nike is joining the circus. |
You're talking about the echo chambers and foment; I'm talking about the actual issue. This is a real problem that needs to be addressed. I've done labor work for police departments and handled the civil side of excessive force cases/section 1983/etc. and it's real.
My eyes were peeled open on this matter when I had to clean up the mess for a town where a Sgt. planted evidence and sent someone to jail for a year. All caught on video (which he had "misplaced" for 6 months).
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | If you don't share the constant state of outrage, you become the enemy. |
Excessive policing/brutality against black/brown folks is something to be outraged about. |
Eh. For the folks in the echo chambers, there is always something to be outraged about. They get up in the morning, turn on the news, and get outraged. It's like a drug. For a time, Fox News gained hegemony in the news industry by peddling outrage. Now MSNBC and CNN are serving it up to the left. And, of relevance to this thread, Nike is joining the circus. |
This is the point I'm getting at. There's a real and fundamental question of whether something is worth being outraged about on the merits, in and of itself. Whether or not there are outrage factories or a culture of outrage or whatever, that doesn't change or answer the question about whether there should be outrage about a specific issue.
I think any reasonable person should be immediately and continuously outraged if a group of people are being murdered and/or otherwise harmed by the very people who are supposed to protect them. And I don't think just saying there is too much outrage is a cogent rebuttal.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | You're talking about the echo chambers and foment; I'm talking about the actual issue. This is a real problem that needs to be addressed. I've done labor work for police departments and handled the civil side of excessive force cases/section 1983/etc. and it's real.
My eyes were peeled open on this matter when I had to clean up the mess for a town where a Sgt. planted evidence and sent someone to jail for a year. All caught on video (which he had "misplaced" for 6 months). |
Sure it is. I spent seven years representing a mentally stunted black man who was sentenced to death by an all-white jury that did not know that there was forensic evidence strongly suggesting that he was not the shooter (and that did not know that he was mentally stunted, and that included an uncomfortably close relative of the victim). I know all too well what it is really like out there. I've done more in my lifetime to actively promote civil rights and fight injustice than most of the snowflakes in the local echo chamber combined.
As I said earlier in the thread, when a left wing friend of mine gave me the BS about how all we can do is "raise awareness," it took me a couple minutes to come up with a concrete proposal. I expect that you could do the same, and it would probably be similar to mine. There's a path forward here, and it does not require freaking Colin Kaepernick. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | If you don't share the constant state of outrage, you become the enemy. |
Excessive policing/brutality against black/brown folks is something to be outraged about. |
Eh. For the folks in the echo chambers, there is always something to be outraged about. They get up in the morning, turn on the news, and get outraged. It's like a drug. For a time, Fox News gained hegemony in the news industry by peddling outrage. Now MSNBC and CNN are serving it up to the left. And, of relevance to this thread, Nike is joining the circus. |
This is the point I'm getting at. There's a real and fundamental question of whether something is worth being outraged about on the merits, in and of itself. Whether or not there are outrage factories or a culture of outrage or whatever, that doesn't change or answer the question about whether there should be outrage about a specific issue.
I think any reasonable person should be immediately and continuously outraged if a group of people are being murdered and/or otherwise harmed by the very people who are supposed to protect them. And I don't think just saying there is too much outrage is a cogent rebuttal. |
Great, but your point is ultimately irrelevant in this thread, My point is that Nike is using your outrage to sell you a pair of overpriced sneakers made in a sweatshop in Indonesia. Just do it, baby. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | If you don't share the constant state of outrage, you become the enemy. |
Excessive policing/brutality against black/brown folks is something to be outraged about. |
Eh. For the folks in the echo chambers, there is always something to be outraged about. They get up in the morning, turn on the news, and get outraged. It's like a drug. For a time, Fox News gained hegemony in the news industry by peddling outrage. Now MSNBC and CNN are serving it up to the left. And, of relevance to this thread, Nike is joining the circus. |
This is the point I'm getting at. There's a real and fundamental question of whether something is worth being outraged about on the merits, in and of itself. Whether or not there are outrage factories or a culture of outrage or whatever, that doesn't change or answer the question about whether there should be outrage about a specific issue.
I think any reasonable person should be immediately and continuously outraged if a group of people are being murdered and/or otherwise harmed by the very people who are supposed to protect them. And I don't think just saying there is too much outrage is a cogent rebuttal. |
Great, but your point is ultimately irrelevant in this thread, My point is that Nike is using your outrage to sell you a pair of overpriced sneakers made in a sweatshop in Indonesia. Just do it, baby. |
Sure, but you've been arguing the other ones too. I'm not distracted by the "let me argue multiple things and then pretend it's the other one when you address this one" routine. I can quote your thoughts on the protest itself and the person protesting if you'd like. The problem with whack a mole is I have more than one hammer.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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Court throws out 'mental retardation' - Justices unite over 'intellectual disability.'
| Quote: | The U.S. Supreme Court is often divided, but on one little-noticed point last week, it was unanimous: the term "mental retardation" is no longer appropriate to use. This may seem trivial and way too late. Mental health professionals and most of the rest of us long ago abandoned that phrase, which echoes insulting schoolyard epithets.
But at an institution whose decisions have broad impact, the court's action is a significant sign of society's progress toward treating each other with dignity.
The court's shift came Tuesday in Hall v. Florida, which struck down Florida's method for determining whether a death row inmate who claims intellectual disability should be executed. On that issue, the court split 5-4.
But on the second page of the majority opinion, Justice Anthony Kennedy laid down the law on terminology: "Previous opinions of this court have employed the term 'mental retardation.' This opinion uses the term 'intellectual disability' to describe the identical phenomenon." Justice Samuel Alito Jr. adopted the same term in his dissent. As recently as 2013, the court routinely used "mental retardation" in its opinions.
Advocacy groups such as the American Association on Intellectual and Developmental Disabilities and The Arc — both of which once had "retardation" or "stunted" in their names — applauded the shift. In addition to the symbolic importance, they said they can now use "intellectual disability" in legal briefs. Until last week's decision, they used the outdated terminology to track the wording of precedents and avoid confusion.
"Mentally stunted" was once viewed as an improvement over terms such as "feeble minded." But word preferences evolve, and "intellectual disability" is the preferred term now. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Sure, but you've been arguing the other ones too. I'm not distracted by the "let me argue multiple things and then pretend it's the other one when you address this one" routine. I can quote your thoughts on the protest itself and the person protesting if you'd like. The problem with whack a mole is I have more than one hammer. |
Sure I have. But if you look back over my posts, you’ll see that I repeatedly come back to Nike. That’s what this thread is about. |
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