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Hector the Pup
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 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:11 am Post subject: |
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The Shaq that played for Orlando probably could.
The Lakers version? He'd be winded after the first 4 minutes. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | The Shaq that played for Orlando probably could.
The Lakers version? He'd be winded after the first 4 minutes. |
We would have recurring nightmares seeing Shaq switched onto Steph, Harden, etc., though it would be interesting to see his offensive prowess (though trading 2s for 3s isn't winning basketball in 2018).
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Mamba Mentality
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | The Shaq that played for Orlando probably could.
The Lakers version? He'd be winded after the first 4 minutes. |
Yeah he'd be gassed. He'd wouldn't have the stamina to average 50 points in this era.
Plus, he'd be a major liability on defense. Being tired and all combined with the fact that he would have trouble moving. He had trouble guarding the pick and roll. |
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Wilkes52 wrote: | It's just like what Kareem said about GOAT discussions: it's nothing to be taken seriously.
If Shaq was 28 years old today, he'd likely not become the same guy we knew in 2001 or so. He and his game probably would have developed differently, for better or worse. I think he was gifted physically enough to have become a big force in the league in today's game, had he come along for this era instead of the one prior.
Given the sort of circumstances we've seen in the playoffs since 2002, it's notable that there's not been a championship squad led by someone who can't shoot outside 8' of the rim. That poses a legitimate question regarding Shaq's chance of winning four rings, wouldn't it ? Would he have developed that shooting skill ? Would he have needed to ?
We'll never know.
Now, pass the pizza, please. |
wilt it doesnt really pose legit questions about a prime shaq in todays game.
3 things happened. everyone started becoming a 1 and done. Which means as you know kids dont get time to grow up/mature and know their own bodies/strengths yet. They are thrown into the fire by going so early into the nba. doing so will give them a longer prime barring injury. but the early days will be a bit rougher for most because there are things they need to learn about their own game, strengths and weakness that they didnt even have a chance to look at in college because they left so early.
bigs specifically were pretty much doing multiple years back then. They had a couple of colleges known for producing top flight bigs we all knew about georgetown. These were bigmen institutions. They taught these 7 footers how to post up, what moves to do, what counter moves to use and when. they also preached rebounding and defense.
Right now these institutions no longer exist. This is the second reason you no longer see these types of bigs in the league.
Lastly, due to what kids grew up seeing it made bigs want to be littles.
I grew up watching Bigmen dominate college and the pros, along with great pass first pg's, then It moved to jordan. Then it moved to AI(everyone wants to cross someone over), this era also had a lot of jordan 2.0's in it. that was the tail end of the bigman era. By the time we get to the chucker era with steph and crew. bigmen have all but completed left the block and decided to chuck some 3's and play only weakside defense because there's no reason to be good at man big man defense since no bigs are on that low block religious.
This idea of a big that can step out and shoot 3's is not really what people make it to be. Why would a smart big guard lopez at the 3 point line, when they can just fall back and zone up the middle to cut off any drives? how good of a shooter is brook? he aint that good from deep. i would take my chances with him, embid chucking as well as many other bigs that shoot. unless you're a bonafide sharpshooter guy. and if thats the case odds are you're just a tall kyle korver. you're not a legit big man to begin with.
People think bigs are obsolete because the game changed based on the rules. not true. they became obsolete because of the above things happened. The moment we get lucky enough to have an era of college bigs that are groomed to be low post bigs and they WANT/DESIRE to be low post bigs. there will be dominant low post bigs. now sure you can have coaches such as MDA who are silly and wont use them down low. thats on him. has he won yet? NOPE. if you're gstate and you draft the best shooters of all time. by all means use your shooters wisely it would be stupid to do anything else.
but because you can't beat them at their own game .you wont. they can only beat themselves. then you have to counter that with something different. Like. a great big man if there was one to have. there's a reason they signed a hurt cousins. Two reasons to be exact. #1.so you can't have him to bother them. #2. so they can have him to kill you.
fans have to not be so quick to listen to the media trying to force a narrative. It aint true. The pendulum can easily swing back where you see some real nice low post bigs in the nba. you still can't teach height. as long as the rim is 10 feet and no higher. bigs with great footwork can dominate. |
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Nash Vegas
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | The Shaq that played for Orlando probably could.
The Lakers version? He'd be winded after the first 4 minutes. |
We would have recurring nightmares seeing Shaq switched onto Steph, Harden, etc., though it would be interesting to see his offensive prowess (though trading 2s for 3s isn't winning basketball in 2018). |
Won't be really trading 2s for 3s evenly.
ORL Shaq shot 60% from the field in the early 90's when bigs were real bigs, wouldn't be shocked if he shot as high as 65% - 70% in this era.
Right now GSW era of Steph, Klay, Durant together average 41% from 3s.
So for the sake of this example, Shaq would be averaging at least 1.300 points per shot attempt on 2s while the big three of GSW would only be averaging 1.230 points per 3s attempted.
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Nash Vegas wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | The Shaq that played for Orlando probably could.
The Lakers version? He'd be winded after the first 4 minutes. |
We would have recurring nightmares seeing Shaq switched onto Steph, Harden, etc., though it would be interesting to see his offensive prowess (though trading 2s for 3s isn't winning basketball in 2018). |
Won't be really trading 2s for 3s evenly.
ORL Shaq shot 60% from the field in the early 90's when bigs were real bigs, wouldn't be shocked if he shot as high as 65% - 70% in this era.
Right now GSW era of Steph, Klay, Durant together average 41% from 3s.
So for the sake of this example, Shaq would be averaging at least 1.300 points per shot attempt on 2s while the big three of GSW would only be averaging 1.230 points per 3s attempted. |
He wouldn't be on the floor as much as Steph, Klay and Durant. |
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Nash Vegas
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | | Nash Vegas wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | The Shaq that played for Orlando probably could.
The Lakers version? He'd be winded after the first 4 minutes. |
We would have recurring nightmares seeing Shaq switched onto Steph, Harden, etc., though it would be interesting to see his offensive prowess (though trading 2s for 3s isn't winning basketball in 2018). |
Won't be really trading 2s for 3s evenly.
ORL Shaq shot 60% from the field in the early 90's when bigs were real bigs, wouldn't be shocked if he shot as high as 65% - 70% in this era.
Right now GSW era of Steph, Klay, Durant together average 41% from 3s.
So for the sake of this example, Shaq would be averaging at least 1.300 points per shot attempt on 2s while the big three of GSW would only be averaging 1.230 points per 3s attempted. |
He wouldn't be on the floor as much as Steph, Klay and Durant. |
Prime Shaq averaged about 40 mpg a season three times, should be more than enough.
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AshesToAshes
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Shaq still doesn't know himself!
He "could" avg 50 in any era... but once he shows it, he'd slow himself down because he loved having his "switch".
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Jordan-esque
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:29 am Post subject: |
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It's like Wilt in the 60's.
A young/prime Shaq in the modern era would probably be close to Wilt Chamberlain - putting up crazy points and rebound numbers - but not necessarily enough to keep beating today's Warriors aka the Bill Russell Celtics.
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | The Shaq that played for Orlando probably could.
The Lakers version? He'd be winded after the first 4 minutes. |
We would have recurring nightmares seeing Shaq switched onto Steph, Harden, etc., though it would be interesting to see his offensive prowess (though trading 2s for 3s isn't winning basketball in 2018). |
Seriously, was there ever a worse or more disinterested player in defending the pick and roll than Shaq? His boast doesn't surprise me as Shaq always viewed the game only through a prism of offense.
Last edited by greenfrog on Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:00 am Post subject: |
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I think guys like Hakeem or KG would fare the best as big men today. Hakeem's game is pretty timeless IMO.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Shaq: “I’d average 50 in this era because bigs don’t play physical” |
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| Jordan-esque wrote: | Lakers’ podcast with Shaq:
https://www.podcastone.com/the-official-lakers-podcast
| Quote: | In response to a question submitted on social media, Shaquille O’Neal went on to say he would not attempt to become a 3-point shooter if he was brought up in the current era:
“First of all, if I came up in this era, I wouldn’t shoot threes. That’s not what a big guy is supposed to do. If I played today, I’d average 50, without free throws. I’d average 50, because guys don’t play physical. They whine and they cry; I’m going to punish everybody. All these guys talking about shooting jump shots, you’re going to have to defend me. And you can’t defend me with three or four fouls. I’m just going to punish you. I haven’t really lost to a lot of guys that shot jumpers in my face, but I beat everybody by playing low. So I would definitely average 40-50. Easily.”
“A lot of people say, ‘Oh, well, it’s a different game.’ No. When people are doing things different, that’s when you’ve got to do something different. OK, everybody is shooting jumpers. Fine, but I make my money on the inside. A lot of people don’t understand it takes legs and strength to shoot the jumpers. A lot of people will try to shoot jumpers for three quarters against me. In the fourth quarter, banging up against me all the time, it won’t work.”
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I wonder if there's ever been an NBA star in the history of the league who didn't say/think, "My era was so much tougher than what's going on today and if I were playing today I'd rewrite the record book." |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| splashmtn wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | splashmtn wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | A lot of people forget how hard it is to make a good post entry pass. Basically, modern defenses would just zone Shaq and deny him the ball. When he did get the ball, he would be up against some defensive center with six fouls to give. |
you're acting like the spurs were not playing zone vs shaq. he did play in that era. still dominated.
prime shaq aint being stopped period in no era. |
Right. I forgot that he averaged 50 ppg against the Spurs. My bad. |
you're missing the point. the spurs were a much better defensive team and had a much better big man then anyone not named embid right now. lets be real about it. the C position is as soft as a pack of marshmallows a little to close to the camp fire.
The same way the raptors were running every type of zone coverage they could vs kobe but kobe still dropped 81 because they sucked on D regardless. is the same thing shaq would do to these new soft centers.
and I'm not even going to say if he would win those games or not as a team. but for him. he would destroy the league worse then he did in his era where there were better bigs with more actual post skill, more aggressive, liked to get rough, they allowed people to hug and hold a lot more without calls, and those bigs overall had much better personal man to man defense then the current crop. |
Shaq would be good in any era. I’m addressing his claim that he would average 50 today. Naw. Other teams would zone to keep the ball out of his hands, and when he got it, a seven footer named Biggo Slabbe from Latvia would be there to foul him. He might average 30 in a good year, just like he did in his own era. He’d be the best center in the league, just like he was in his own era. He wouldn’t put up legendary numbers, though. |
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CervantesRises
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Nash Vegas wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | The Shaq that played for Orlando probably could.
The Lakers version? He'd be winded after the first 4 minutes. |
We would have recurring nightmares seeing Shaq switched onto Steph, Harden, etc., though it would be interesting to see his offensive prowess (though trading 2s for 3s isn't winning basketball in 2018). |
Won't be really trading 2s for 3s evenly.
ORL Shaq shot 60% from the field in the early 90's when bigs were real bigs, wouldn't be shocked if he shot as high as 65% - 70% in this era.
Right now GSW era of Steph, Klay, Durant together average 41% from 3s.
So for the sake of this example, Shaq would be averaging at least 1.300 points per shot attempt on 2s while the big three of GSW would only be averaging 1.230 points per 3s attempted. |
Not to mention foul trouble for all the opponent's bigs...but Shaq would need to shoot FTs at 75% and up too.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | splashmtn wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | splashmtn wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | A lot of people forget how hard it is to make a good post entry pass. Basically, modern defenses would just zone Shaq and deny him the ball. When he did get the ball, he would be up against some defensive center with six fouls to give. |
you're acting like the spurs were not playing zone vs shaq. he did play in that era. still dominated.
prime shaq aint being stopped period in no era. |
Right. I forgot that he averaged 50 ppg against the Spurs. My bad. |
you're missing the point. the spurs were a much better defensive team and had a much better big man then anyone not named embid right now. lets be real about it. the C position is as soft as a pack of marshmallows a little to close to the camp fire.
The same way the raptors were running every type of zone coverage they could vs kobe but kobe still dropped 81 because they sucked on D regardless. is the same thing shaq would do to these new soft centers.
and I'm not even going to say if he would win those games or not as a team. but for him. he would destroy the league worse then he did in his era where there were better bigs with more actual post skill, more aggressive, liked to get rough, they allowed people to hug and hold a lot more without calls, and those bigs overall had much better personal man to man defense then the current crop. |
Shaq would be good in any era. I’m addressing his claim that he would average 50 today. Naw. Other teams would zone to keep the ball out of his hands, and when he got it, a seven footer named Biggo Slabbe from Latvia would be there to foul him. He might average 30 in a good year, just like he did in his own era. He’d be the best center in the league, just like he was in his own era. He wouldn’t put up legendary numbers, though. |
Agreed. 50ppg, no way. Not even close.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Jordan-esque wrote: | It's like Wilt in the 60's.
A young/prime Shaq in the modern era would probably be close to Wilt Chamberlain - putting up crazy points and rebound numbers - but not necessarily enough to keep beating today's Warriors aka the Bill Russell Celtics. |
I’ve posted the math before, but here’s a quick summary. If you start with Wilt’s 50 point season, adjust the game pace to the modern speed, and reduce his mpg from 48 to 40, the result is around 30 ppg. Kobe ‘86 actually scored at a faster pace than Wilt.
I don’t want to open up a Wilt discussion. The point is simply that averaging 40 ppg, much less 50 ppg, would be virtually impossible in the modern NBA (as Kobe said). Let’s assume that Shaq could make 67% of his shots today. Setting aside FTs for simplicity, he would need to take 30 shots per game to average 40 ppg and 37.5 shots per game to average 50 ppg. In the real world, Shaq averaged 20 shots per game only twice. Because I’m excluding FTs, you could say that he was really taking 4-5 more shots, but that they resulted in shooting fouls. Even then, he would need to take about 20% more shots just to get to 40 ppg if he shot 67%.
And he would need to do his in an era in which zones are more or less legal and the post entry pass is a lost art. |
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Zhengi
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Shaq would not average 50 pts, but he would still dominate. All those centers trying to guard him would be either gassed out or in foul trouble in the 4th quarter and like he said, he'll make the free throws when they count.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Jordan-esque wrote: | It's like Wilt in the 60's.
A young/prime Shaq in the modern era would probably be close to Wilt Chamberlain - putting up crazy points and rebound numbers - but not necessarily enough to keep beating today's Warriors aka the Bill Russell Celtics. |
I’ve posted the math before, but here’s a quick summary. If you start with Wilt’s 50 point season, adjust the game pace to the modern speed, and reduce his mpg from 48 to 40, the result is around 30 ppg. Kobe ‘86 actually scored at a faster pace than Wilt.
I don’t want to open up a Wilt discussion. The point is simply that averaging 40 ppg, much less 50 ppg, would be virtually impossible in the modern NBA (as Kobe said). Let’s assume that Shaq could make 67% of his shots today. Setting aside FTs for simplicity, he would need to take 30 shots per game to average 40 ppg and 37.5 shots per game to average 50 ppg. In the real world, Shaq averaged 20 shots per game only twice. Because I’m excluding FTs, you could say that he was really taking 4-5 more shots, but that they resulted in shooting fouls. Even then, he would need to take about 20% more shots just to get to 40 ppg if he shot 67%.
And he would need to do his in an era in which zones are more or less legal and the post entry pass is a lost art. |
Another way to look at it: In Shaq's MVP season for us, he averaged about 29 ppg. If he had shot 65% that season, he would have averaged about 33 ppg.
And 65% has only been accomplished 10 times in NBA history, and its way above Shaq's career best.
So it takes an enormous amount of what ifs on top of what ifs on top of what ifs even to get him to 35 ppg. |
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Roger O. Thornhill
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Shaq is a loudmouthed idiot. He has a better chance at being elected POTUS than averaging 50ppg in this or any other era. |
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RJ_LA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:40 am Post subject: |
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You guys are taking the 50 point comment too seriously. Shaq is as good of a joker as he was a basketball player. He's just having fun.
As of how many points he'd score in this era, it'd be the same. Prime Shaq would destroy opponents, he'd be lazy at some points in the regular season, but come playoffs, super teams like Golden State would be squashed. |
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Hellspawn
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Jordan-esque wrote: | It's like Wilt in the 60's.
A young/prime Shaq in the modern era would probably be close to Wilt Chamberlain - putting up crazy points and rebound numbers - but not necessarily enough to keep beating today's Warriors aka the Bill Russell Celtics. |
I’ve posted the math before, but here’s a quick summary. If you start with Wilt’s 50 point season, adjust the game pace to the modern speed, and reduce his mpg from 48 to 40, the result is around 30 ppg. Kobe ‘86 actually scored at a faster pace than Wilt.
I don’t want to open up a Wilt discussion. The point is simply that averaging 40 ppg, much less 50 ppg, would be virtually impossible in the modern NBA (as Kobe said). Let’s assume that Shaq could make 67% of his shots today. Setting aside FTs for simplicity, he would need to take 30 shots per game to average 40 ppg and 37.5 shots per game to average 50 ppg. In the real world, Shaq averaged 20 shots per game only twice. Because I’m excluding FTs, you could say that he was really taking 4-5 more shots, but that they resulted in shooting fouls. Even then, he would need to take about 20% more shots just to get to 40 ppg if he shot 67%.
And he would need to do his in an era in which zones are more or less legal and the post entry pass is a lost art. |
Thanks for posting this, yes the efficiency and pace with which top 3-point shooting teams is simply more effective offensively than anything Shaq + his free throws + the zone offense would be able to accomplish in today's league. It's just math, when rules evolve (like hand checking or zone), the game evolves.
| RJ_LA wrote: | You guys are taking the 50 point comment too seriously. Shaq is as good of a joker as he was a basketball player. He's just having fun.
As of how many points he'd score in this era, it'd be the same. Prime Shaq would destroy opponents, he'd be lazy at some points in the regular season, but come playoffs, super teams like Golden State would be squashed. |
Shaq does joke a lot, but he is also a huge baby with a huge ego, and he has a very long and storied history of retconning any of his boasts and stupid statements that he realized didn't go over well into "I was just joking, why do you guys take me seriously". |
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LandsbergerRules
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | The Shaq that played for Orlando probably could.
The Lakers version? He'd be winded after the first 4 minutes. |
I don't think even Orlando-era Shaq had the kind of conditioning if would take to average 50. Wilt had to play like 48.5 mpg for a whole season to do it.
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Superlaker66
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Prime Shaq with some decent shooters to keep the defense honest would dominate in any era!
He was a juggernaut with the speed and quickness to punish anyone guarding him.
I remember tuning in just to see him throw down the monster dunk with defenders hanging from his arms.
(That and Kobe destroying the opposing team with impossible shots after impossible shots.)
Nostalgia aside,
Prime Shaq averaging thirty points in today’s NBA… absolutely doable.
Prime Shaq averaging forty points in today’s NBA… only if he works on his FTs (which coincidentally has the same odds of him showing up to camp in shape).
Prime Shaq averaging fifty points in today’s NBA… nothing’s impossible after a few joints and a couple of shrooms. |
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mde24
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Having Shaq would be like when the Lakers had Kareem, Automatic 2, sometimes a three point play. He would open up the floor for the other 4 guys. You could never leave him one on one. One or two people would have to cheat, leaving some one open. like in the past it's not his fault he was the biggest and strongest person on the court. Defenders would usually bounce off a legit move or they would try to hold him (which is a foul on the defense) and go for a ride to the basket. All you naysayers have to remember, even with the rough play from both sides, Shaq rarely fouled out. But his defenders did. The refs had a hard job calling the game when shaq was involved, he played physical, and smart. Defenders & Refs today face the same challenge. He's gonna get his, only a hot 3 point shooting team could take him out. Everybody's not that hot from 3 every night. But you can get punished for 4 quarters every night.
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1hu2ren3dui4
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Prime Shaq was too short. |
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