Would you rather have Butler + Leonard or just Lebron?
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Would you rather have Butler + Leonard or just Lebron?
LeBron
82%
 82%  [ 24 ]
Butler and Leonard
17%
 17%  [ 5 ]
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lordtrapula
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:03 pm    Post subject:

LeBron, it's a nice feeling knowing you'll have the best player on the floor day in, day out.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:05 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
noahp45 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Quote:
The dude Has issue's!


Sure, as noted in my original post, he seems to want to be the Man, and it's also rumored he messed around with KAT's GF.

Regardless, there are issues surrounding KL (health and his strange behavior with the team).

Then you're asking KD or Klay to leave a possible 3 peat team.

It's not as easy as some make it out to be.


I don't think people understand how much money it will cost to pay all 4 to stay together. One is leaving for sure


Maybe. Or maybe not. That is why the Lakers wouldn't foreclose on Butler being a possible FA (and nothing precludes him from hitting FA in 2019 since an extension now would mean he loses out on $).

But folks are treating this as if it's 2016, 2017, or 2018 summer, and that we can just "punt" a max in perpetuity while LBJ's biological championship clock dwindles down. This is effectively the last summer we will have a max slot and they're going to spend it. Would you rather spend 32m on Butler or Kemba/Boogie?


Interesting analogy But I want team built to last over a short title window. Signing Butler screams we must win soon.
Also we created a max slot when we had crappy contracts like Deng, Mozgof and Clarkson on the books. Just because this year seems like the best year to use it, if no one comes you just have to create space like we did before.

yes, I want to win now but even with Butler do you really think we are going to beat Golden state this year? if he is all that is left out of the max guys in FA next year, you would rather overpay the 5th best max FA target just so we can say we signed a max guy?

Does that sound like smart planning?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:06 pm    Post subject:

Killakobe81 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Remember, this is the last season we will likely have a max slot. Ingram's cap hold would be huge in 2020 gobbling up most of the cap space. It's pretty hard to just "punt" to 2020 unless BI is no longer in our long term picture.


Not a capologist, but won't Ingram's cap-hold be less than what we are paying Rondo/KCP/Beasley who are all on one-year deals?


That's for 2019 summer.

2020 summer is when AD can be a FA (player option for 2020-21). That is the summer when BI can be a RFA. Remember Jules made something like 4.5m in 2017-18 but his cap hold became 12.4m this summer.

Regardless, I think AD, if the Lakers try to get him, would be via trade, no FA. Too tough to punt and punt, especially given cap holds for guys like BI.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:10 pm    Post subject:

lordtrapula wrote:
LeBron, it's a nice feeling knowing you'll have the best player on the floor day in, day out.


Portland might be shooked, when they see LeBron’s wrath on opening night, people talk about players like KL or Butler when talking about talent but when teams see LeBron, they fear him, the same can’t be said about Leonard or Butler..


Last edited by Inspector Gadget on Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:12 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Killakobe81 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Remember, this is the last season we will likely have a max slot. Ingram's cap hold would be huge in 2020 gobbling up most of the cap space. It's pretty hard to just "punt" to 2020 unless BI is no longer in our long term picture.


Not a capologist, but won't Ingram's cap-hold be less than what we are paying Rondo/KCP/Beasley who are all on one-year deals?


That's for 2019 summer.

2020 summer is when AD can be a FA (player option for 2020-21). That is the summer when BI can be a RFA. Remember Jules made something like 4.5m in 2017-18 but his cap hold became 12.4m this summer.

Regardless, I think AD, if the Lakers try to get him, would be via trade, no FA. Too tough to punt and punt, especially given cap holds for guys like BI.


https://www.spotrac.com/nba/los-angeles-lakers/cap/2020/

According to Spotrac, BI's cap hold in 2020 is 9.5 mill which seemed way low. Simmons' cap hold is 24 mill according to them but Brown's is only 8.5.

Someone please confirm this

Edit: I guess BI's cap hold in 2020 should be 3x his previous salary. That would translate to 21.9 mill cap hold. Again these are just from my observations.

Man I hope if we get to that point we trade him for a future asset instead of letting go. Essentially trading BI for Davis doesnt sound too bad, but it would be a tough pill to swallow losing him.
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Last edited by chantruong on Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:12 pm    Post subject:

Killakobe81 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
noahp45 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Quote:
The dude Has issue's!


Sure, as noted in my original post, he seems to want to be the Man, and it's also rumored he messed around with KAT's GF.

Regardless, there are issues surrounding KL (health and his strange behavior with the team).

Then you're asking KD or Klay to leave a possible 3 peat team.

It's not as easy as some make it out to be.


I don't think people understand how much money it will cost to pay all 4 to stay together. One is leaving for sure


Maybe. Or maybe not. That is why the Lakers wouldn't foreclose on Butler being a possible FA (and nothing precludes him from hitting FA in 2019 since an extension now would mean he loses out on $).

But folks are treating this as if it's 2016, 2017, or 2018 summer, and that we can just "punt" a max in perpetuity while LBJ's biological championship clock dwindles down. This is effectively the last summer we will have a max slot and they're going to spend it. Would you rather spend 32m on Butler or Kemba/Boogie?


Interesting analogy But I want team built to last over a short title window. Signing Butler screams we must win soon.
Also we created a max slot when we had crappy contracts like Deng, Mozgof and Clarkson on the books. Just because this year seems like the best year to use it, if no one comes you just have to create space like we did before.

yes, I want to win now but even with Butler do you really think we are going to beat Golden state this year? if he is all that is left out of the max guys in FA next year, you would rather overpay the 5th best max FA target just so we can say we signed a max guy?

Does that sound like smart planning?


But then you'd be burning 2 years of LBJ's 4 year deal (4th a player option) not being competitive. Which players are signing 1 year punt deals that will put us in a place to compete with the Warriors?

Then after being spurned by max FAs for 2 summers (2018, PG/2019), we will just do it again (when LBJ is 2 years older)?

That's unlikely.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:13 pm    Post subject:

chantruong wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Killakobe81 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Remember, this is the last season we will likely have a max slot. Ingram's cap hold would be huge in 2020 gobbling up most of the cap space. It's pretty hard to just "punt" to 2020 unless BI is no longer in our long term picture.


Not a capologist, but won't Ingram's cap-hold be less than what we are paying Rondo/KCP/Beasley who are all on one-year deals?


That's for 2019 summer.

2020 summer is when AD can be a FA (player option for 2020-21). That is the summer when BI can be a RFA. Remember Jules made something like 4.5m in 2017-18 but his cap hold became 12.4m this summer.

Regardless, I think AD, if the Lakers try to get him, would be via trade, no FA. Too tough to punt and punt, especially given cap holds for guys like BI.


https://www.spotrac.com/nba/los-angeles-lakers/cap/2020/

According to Spotrac, BI's cap hold in 2020 is 9.5 mill which seemed way low. Simmons' cap hold is 24 mill according to them but Brown's is only 8.5.

Someone please confirm this


No that's way off. Simmons's # seems around right. BI would be in the 20m+ cap hold range as the #2 pick.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:14 pm    Post subject:

I'm curious if Kawhi even comes back to his MVP-like form.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:18 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
chantruong wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Killakobe81 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Remember, this is the last season we will likely have a max slot. Ingram's cap hold would be huge in 2020 gobbling up most of the cap space. It's pretty hard to just "punt" to 2020 unless BI is no longer in our long term picture.


Not a capologist, but won't Ingram's cap-hold be less than what we are paying Rondo/KCP/Beasley who are all on one-year deals?


That's for 2019 summer.

2020 summer is when AD can be a FA (player option for 2020-21). That is the summer when BI can be a RFA. Remember Jules made something like 4.5m in 2017-18 but his cap hold became 12.4m this summer.

Regardless, I think AD, if the Lakers try to get him, would be via trade, no FA. Too tough to punt and punt, especially given cap holds for guys like BI.


https://www.spotrac.com/nba/los-angeles-lakers/cap/2020/

According to Spotrac, BI's cap hold in 2020 is 9.5 mill which seemed way low. Simmons' cap hold is 24 mill according to them but Brown's is only 8.5.

Someone please confirm this


No that's way off. Simmons's # seems around right. BI would be in the 20m+ cap hold range as the #2 pick.


Yeah, i figure the cap hold is 3x the previous salary for rookie contract guys. It would be tough pill to swallow losing BI and possibly wasting another year of Lebron in that scenario. Having 4-8 years of AD after 2020 isn't a bad plan E tho.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:20 pm    Post subject:

DLO (under the 2011 CBA which doesn't apply to BI) has a 20m cap hold in 2019.

BI's should be well above 20m, around the 22m range. Basically he makes any max FA a tough get (coupled with Deng's 5m stretch amount).

IMO we will spend our cap space in 2019. I'm hoping it's one of KL/KD/Klay/Butler. But if not, I can see them still spending it on non max guys. At worst you have tradeable pieces if you want to go big game hunting.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:24 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
DLO (under the 2011 CBA which doesn't apply to BI) has a 20m cap hold in 2019.

BI's should be well above 20m, around the 22m range. Basically he makes any max FA a tough get (coupled with Deng's 5m stretch amount).

IMO we will spend our cap space in 2019. I'm hoping it's one of KL/KD/Klay/Butler. But if not, I can see them still spending it on non max guys. At worst you have tradeable pieces if you want to go big game hunting.


Best thing that can happen is that our kids make a huge leap and Lebron maintains MVP level play. If so, any outcome in 2019 will be good.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Killakobe81 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
noahp45 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Quote:
The dude Has issue's!


Sure, as noted in my original post, he seems to want to be the Man, and it's also rumored he messed around with KAT's GF.

Regardless, there are issues surrounding KL (health and his strange behavior with the team).

Then you're asking KD or Klay to leave a possible 3 peat team.

It's not as easy as some make it out to be.


I don't think people understand how much money it will cost to pay all 4 to stay together. One is leaving for sure


Maybe. Or maybe not. That is why the Lakers wouldn't foreclose on Butler being a possible FA (and nothing precludes him from hitting FA in 2019 since an extension now would mean he loses out on $).

But folks are treating this as if it's 2016, 2017, or 2018 summer, and that we can just "punt" a max in perpetuity while LBJ's biological championship clock dwindles down. This is effectively the last summer we will have a max slot and they're going to spend it. Would you rather spend 32m on Butler or Kemba/Boogie?


Interesting analogy But I want team built to last over a short title window. Signing Butler screams we must win soon.
Also we created a max slot when we had crappy contracts like Deng, Mozgof and Clarkson on the books. Just because this year seems like the best year to use it, if no one comes you just have to create space like we did before.

yes, I want to win now but even with Butler do you really think we are going to beat Golden state this year? if he is all that is left out of the max guys in FA next year, you would rather overpay the 5th best max FA target just so we can say we signed a max guy?

Does that sound like smart planning?


But then you'd be burning 2 years of LBJ's 4 year deal (4th a player option) not being competitive. Which players are signing 1 year punt deals that will put us in a place to compete with the Warriors?

Then after being spurned by max FAs for 2 summers (2018, PG/2019), we will just do it again (when LBJ is 2 years older)?

That's unlikely.


State won't win forever.
We will be competitive this year as built, no title, but contenders.
Not my job to figure which players will be available that is up to Maginka.
I'm just not in support of overpaying ...if Ingram is truly worth his cap hold after next year then that is a great problem to have.

I think we get someone really good so it won't matter and that is why I am lukewarm on Jimmy Buckets. Lakers can be great if Lebron is 90% of what he was last year Ingram makes a leap and then we sign someone/someones with that max slot.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:46 pm    Post subject:

^ Just think it's incredibly unlikely that if the other 3 max FAs turn us down that they will pass on Butler. He's a top 15 player and arguably better than PG13 and PG13 was a top target for the Lakers.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:46 pm    Post subject:

lordtrapula wrote:
I'm curious if Kawhi even comes back to his MVP-like form.


Even if he doesn’t, he is still a Top 15-20 player in the NBA, I won’t lose sleep if we don’t get him, although I understand the fans fascination with him because he is like the perfect 3-D player that Basketball has to offer.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:13 pm    Post subject:

chantruong wrote:
noahp45 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Quote:
The dude Has issue's!


Sure, as noted in my original post, he seems to want to be the Man, and it's also rumored he messed around with KAT's GF.

Regardless, there are issues surrounding KL (health and his strange behavior with the team).

Then you're asking KD or Klay to leave a possible 3 peat team.

It's not as easy as some make it out to be.


I don't think people understand how much money it will cost to pay all 4 to stay together. One is leaving for sure


I saw something last year that Warriors would have to pay around 500 mill in 2020 or 2021 to keep their team around. Maybe they can shed Iggy and Livingston's contract to save some money. Or maybe they just have infinite money. Darn you Silicon Valley


They have deep pockets and that is what worries me about our ownership, we don’t. The Niners got $10,000 per seat for PSLs, I could see the Warriors getting at least $25,000 if they win a couple more titles.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:14 pm    Post subject:

I'd rather have whoever actually wants to be here. I'm tired of these cupcakes proclaiming a desire to play for the Lakers, and when the moment comes to sign on the dotted line, they get cold feet. At least LeBron had the balls to actually commit to this organization and assume the burden of bringing this franchise back from the ruts. Give me more guys like that. If it ain't Butler, then so be it. Dude hasn't led any team to anything, so if he pretends he's going to the Clippers to win a title, then he's delusional, just like PG. Therefore we don't need him.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:15 pm    Post subject:

panamaniac wrote:
I'd rather have whoever actually wants to be here. I'm tired of these cupcakes proclaiming a desire to play for the Lakers, and when the moment comes to sign on the dotted line, they get cold feet. At least LeBron had the balls to actually commit to this organization and assume the burden of bringing this franchise back from the ruts. Give me more guys like that. If it ain't Butler, then so be it. Dude hasn't led any team to anything, so if he pretends he's going to the Clippers to win a title, then he's delusional, just like PG. Therefore we don't need him.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:18 pm    Post subject:

panamaniac wrote:
I'd rather have whoever actually wants to be here. I'm tired of these cupcakes proclaiming a desire to play for the Lakers, and when the moment comes to sign on the dotted line, they get cold feet. At least LeBron had the balls to actually commit to this organization and assume the burden of bringing this franchise back from the ruts. Give me more guys like that. If it ain't Butler, then so be it. Dude hasn't led any team to anything, so if he pretends he's going to the Clippers to win a title, then he's delusional, just like PG. Therefore we don't need him.


That's fine and dandy. But once this next offseason passes that cap space will effectively be gone.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:21 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
panamaniac wrote:
I'd rather have whoever actually wants to be here. I'm tired of these cupcakes proclaiming a desire to play for the Lakers, and when the moment comes to sign on the dotted line, they get cold feet. At least LeBron had the balls to actually commit to this organization and assume the burden of bringing this franchise back from the ruts. Give me more guys like that. If it ain't Butler, then so be it. Dude hasn't led any team to anything, so if he pretends he's going to the Clippers to win a title, then he's delusional, just like PG. Therefore we don't need him.


That's fine and dandy. But once this next offseason passes that cap space will effectively be gone.


Yes you're right. But as of right now we have time and cap flexibility on our side. So theres no need to panic.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:23 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
DLO (under the 2011 CBA which doesn't apply to BI) has a 20m cap hold in 2019.

BI's should be well above 20m, around the 22m range. Basically he makes any max FA a tough get (coupled with Deng's 5m stretch amount).

IMO we will spend our cap space in 2019. I'm hoping it's one of KL/KD/Klay/Butler. But if not, I can see them still spending it on non max guys. At worst you have tradeable pieces if you want to go big game hunting.


That is a weakness of playing the FA market. If we have Lebron and a re- signed Ingram, along with other cap friendly young players, then you don’t have the assets to make a trade for a disgruntled star. You need a middle class.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:28 pm    Post subject:

panamaniac wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
panamaniac wrote:
I'd rather have whoever actually wants to be here. I'm tired of these cupcakes proclaiming a desire to play for the Lakers, and when the moment comes to sign on the dotted line, they get cold feet. At least LeBron had the balls to actually commit to this organization and assume the burden of bringing this franchise back from the ruts. Give me more guys like that. If it ain't Butler, then so be it. Dude hasn't led any team to anything, so if he pretends he's going to the Clippers to win a title, then he's delusional, just like PG. Therefore we don't need him.


That's fine and dandy. But once this next offseason passes that cap space will effectively be gone.


Yes you're right. But as of right now we have time and cap flexibility on our side. So theres no need to panic.


I'm talking entirely about 2019 and not now.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:28 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
DLO (under the 2011 CBA which doesn't apply to BI) has a 20m cap hold in 2019.

BI's should be well above 20m, around the 22m range. Basically he makes any max FA a tough get (coupled with Deng's 5m stretch amount).

IMO we will spend our cap space in 2019. I'm hoping it's one of KL/KD/Klay/Butler. But if not, I can see them still spending it on non max guys. At worst you have tradeable pieces if you want to go big game hunting.


That is a weakness of playing the FA market. If we have Lebron and a re- signed Ingram, along with other cap friendly young players, then you don’t have the assets to make a trade for a disgruntled star. You need a middle class.


This is why they'll spend it even if no max level FA will join. So you can have tradeable assets at worst.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:52 pm    Post subject:

panamaniac wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
panamaniac wrote:
I'd rather have whoever actually wants to be here. I'm tired of these cupcakes proclaiming a desire to play for the Lakers, and when the moment comes to sign on the dotted line, they get cold feet. At least LeBron had the balls to actually commit to this organization and assume the burden of bringing this franchise back from the ruts. Give me more guys like that. If it ain't Butler, then so be it. Dude hasn't led any team to anything, so if he pretends he's going to the Clippers to win a title, then he's delusional, just like PG. Therefore we don't need him.


That's fine and dandy. But once this next offseason passes that cap space will effectively be gone.


Yes you're right. But as of right now we have time and cap flexibility on our side. So theres no need to panic.


There is nothing to panic about now regarding Butler. We can’t trade for him and he isn’t a FA. The 3 teams he said he would sign an extension with all have the ability to open up space for another max. We don’t.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:17 pm    Post subject:

We landed Lebron, stop and smell the roses.

I mean what is this thread about? We have a shot at KD or Klay, with Lebron already in place. Heck, I still think KL is also an option. The Clippers need to sign both Butler and Kawhi, and Butler isn't even in the same class as any of the guys I've mentioned.

How are people thinking the Clippers are in a more enviable position??? How are people even allowing their brains to go.. "Maybe we shouldn't have signed Lebron. Because Butler, although, he's a few rungs below Lebron, is a heck of a recruiter!!!"
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:22 pm    Post subject:

markjay wrote:
matrixskillz wrote:
Butler was never a good fit. He can't shoot 3s and is no better than Josh Hart will be in a couple years.

Your post got me thinking so I looked it up and compared their rookie per-36 minute stats, both at age 22.

Butler: 10.9 pts, 5.6 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 1.1 steals, 0.5 blocks, 1.4 turnovers
Hart: 12.2 pts, 6.5 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 1.2 steals, 0.4 blocks, 1.2 turnovers

Butler: 40.5 fg%, 18.2 3pt%, 76.8 ft%, 52.6 ts%
Hart: 46.9 fg%, 39.6 3pt%, 70.2 ft%, 59.6 ts%

In fact, even if you compare Butler's second season (age 23) to Hart's first season, Hart is still better in points per 36, rebounds per 36, assists per 36, fg%, 3pt%, and ts%.

Yes, it does seem entirely possible that Hart will match or pass Butler in the next few years.


thanks for confirming my suspicions. hart is almost the perfect fit aside from klay next to lebron, on a rookie deal no less.
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