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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:54 am    Post subject: KOREA

What is going on?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6188005/Kim-Moon-raise-hands-North-Koreas-sacred-volcano.html

As usual, I have deep cynicism towards NK and I feel that the US has been (and recently has been) played. So many propaganda images for NK (Trump meeting with Kim) and most recently the SK president.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:41 pm    Post subject:

Trump got played.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:54 pm    Post subject:

Moon's a commie masquerading as a democratically elected leader. Trump can't tell manure apart from mud.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject:

Gatekeeper wrote:
Moon's a commie masquerading as a democratically elected leader. Trump can't tell manure apart from mud.

Someone's still angry Park got caught on her corrupt (bleep).
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unleasHell
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:44 pm    Post subject:

sounds political to me..,
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:19 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Gatekeeper wrote:
Moon's a commie masquerading as a democratically elected leader. Trump can't tell manure apart from mud.

Someone's still angry Park got caught on her corrupt (bleep).


Right. Her aide got what she deserved. Tell me what was it that Park committed to put her in the slammer? Moon, the liberal party and JTBC planned the candlelight vigils as a mass propaganda campaign to oust the sitting president. Ever heard of the duruking scandal?
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 am    Post subject:

I don't claim to understand everything that is going on, but I get the impression that Fat Boy is winning. As an aside, it seems appropriate that North Korea would have a "sacred volcano."
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:26 am    Post subject:

I think NK is playing the diplomatic and geopolitical game perfectly (and I despise the leader and his group for the mass murder they commit and the pain they inflict on the people of NK).

We have too many countries that are falling for this trap IMO.
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999
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:10 am    Post subject:

A unified Korea is not a good look for USA. Trump basically strengthened an opposing nation. Can you imagine South and North Korea unified military. Not good at all.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:29 am    Post subject:

999 wrote:
A unified Korea is not a good look for USA. Trump basically strengthened an opposing nation. Can you imagine South and North Korea unified military. Not good at all.


I don't think Japan/China want it either.

But I feel NK is playing the US/SK big time right now.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:45 am    Post subject:

There are a lot of issues with Korea that are hard for Americans to grasp. For example, the remarkably low birth rate in South Korea has been a concern in recent years. I am not going to assume that Fat Boy is some sort of manipulative genius, because everything I see tells me that he is a blundering blowhard. But the proverbial stars may be aligned for him.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:50 am    Post subject:

999 wrote:
A unified Korea is not a good look for USA. Trump basically strengthened an opposing nation. Can you imagine South and North Korea unified military. Not good at all.

I highly doubt market democracy South Korea - with somewhere between the world's 12th to 14th largest economy - is going to line up to adhere to Juche under the authoritarian leadership of a kleptocratic sociopathic demagogue with terrible fashion sense.

The Korean peninsula will not be reunited under Kim Jong Un without a whole lot of bloodshed and a complete abdication of responsibility by the U.S.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:51 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
There are a lot of issues with Korea that are hard for Americans to grasp. For example, the remarkably low birth rate in South Korea has been a concern in recent years. I am not going to assume that Fat Boy is some sort of manipulative genius, because everything I see tells me that he is a blundering blowhard. But the proverbial stars may be aligned for him.


As much as SK citizens have mixed (and negative) feelings about the US military presence there, it is a major source of security as a tripwire defense even if the number of soldiers there couldn't stop a first wave of NK soldiers.

The Koreas have basically set up mutually assured destruction if they go to war. Millions will die in Seoul in the first few hours of any conflict, and the same with NK.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:57 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I don't claim to understand everything that is going on, but I get the impression that Fat Boy is winning. As an aside, it seems appropriate that North Korea would have a "sacred volcano."

Paektusan has been a "sacred volcano" going back centuries and centuries long before the peninsula was partitioned. But, yeah, the origin myths of the Korean people trace back to the "sacred volcano" and Kim Il-Sung appropriated the historic symbolism for his own cult of personality.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:15 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I don't claim to understand everything that is going on, but I get the impression that Fat Boy is winning. As an aside, it seems appropriate that North Korea would have a "sacred volcano."


Which Fat Boy?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:32 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
999 wrote:
A unified Korea is not a good look for USA. Trump basically strengthened an opposing nation. Can you imagine South and North Korea unified military. Not good at all.

I highly doubt market democracy South Korea - with somewhere between the world's 12th to 14th largest economy - is going to line up to adhere to Juche under the authoritarian leadership of a kleptocratic sociopathic demagogue with terrible fashion sense.

The Korean peninsula will not be reunited under Kim Jong Un without a whole lot of bloodshed and a complete abdication of responsibility by the U.S.


I’m not talking about border unification. I’m talking about allies. Sanctions lifted against NK by SK. South Korean Companies investing in North Korea etc.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:09 am    Post subject:

The Kim empire has to go for the Koreas to be unified. US would be more than fine with that, a US military base at the border of China, imagine that. Of course China won’t let that happen ever, that’s why they’ll continue to support the Kim empire economically, barely but enough to keep the family in power.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:14 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
The Kim empire has to go for the Koreas to be unified. US would be more than fine with that, a US military base at the border of China, imagine that. Of course China won’t let that happen ever, that’s why they’ll continue to support the Kim empire economically, barely but enough to keep the family in power.


How does that work out?

No way SK allows Kim to remain in power. So now what? And what happens to him and his cadre being prosecuted for all sorts of atrocities?

This is a ploy by NK to survive. Maybe with this goodwill, they get some security "assurances" and financial aid, and continue to grow the misery that has plagued NK.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:47 am    Post subject:

Had the North Korea summit happened during the Obama administration, the media would have called to rename the nobel peace prize after him.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:51 am    Post subject:

edxzaws33 wrote:
Had the North Korea summit happened during the Obama administration, the media would have called to rename the nobel peace prize after him.


And the GOP would have called to impeach him as a traitor.

Come on, man. Let's not go there, at least in this thread.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
edxzaws33 wrote:
Had the North Korea summit happened during the Obama administration, the media would have called to rename the nobel peace prize after him.


And the GOP would have called to impeach him as a traitor.

Come on, man. Let's not go there, at least in this thread.


I agree with the sentiment that the previous administration would have been hailed as visionaries, while the opposition party would have been very skeptical of the effort. Sorry, but the thread went there well before edxzaws33's post.

I do not expect much positive to take place on the Korean Peninsula as long as China supports the current regime. There may be less tension, some photo ops, and little nicer language....but for the most part North Korea will remain a dystopian hell that is a threat to any nation within reach of it's missiles. The truth is no matter how hard the US and others spin it, there are significant advantages to having nuclear weapons, and in 2018, nuclear weapons come very close to securing a nation from invasion/attack.

I do not expect much positive to come from the current US efforts, but I also do not see anything negative to this point. We just have to know who we are dealing with, and only give after we have received. The 1994 Agreed Framework was a mistake....we gave them nearly $1.5 Billion in direct aid, and received nothing in return except humiliation. North Korea would very likely not be as far along the path of their nuclear program if the 1994 Agreed Framework never happened, but they would likely still be on the same path. The world is past the point to prevent North Korea from being a nuclear power, and an overall world terror. The world could have prevented North Korea from becoming nuclear at one time, but there would have likely been a great cost. I do lean towards the side that says we look back in a couple decades and believe that preventing nations like North Korea and Iran from becoming nuclear would have been worth that cost.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:14 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
edxzaws33 wrote:
Had the North Korea summit happened during the Obama administration, the media would have called to rename the nobel peace prize after him.


And the GOP would have called to impeach him as a traitor.

Come on, man. Let's not go there, at least in this thread.


I agree with the sentiment that the previous administration would have been hailed as visionaries, while the opposition party would have been very skeptical of the effort. Sorry, but the thread went there well before edxzaws33's post.

I do not expect much positive to take place on the Korean Peninsula as long as China supports the current regime. There may be less tension, some photo ops, and little nicer language....but for the most part North Korea will remain a dystopian hell that is a threat to any nation within reach of it's missiles. The truth is no matter how hard the US and others spin it, there are significant advantages to having nuclear weapons, and in 2018, nuclear weapons come very close to securing a nation from invasion/attack.

I do not expect much positive to come from the current US efforts, but I also do not see anything negative to this point. We just have to know who we are dealing with, and only give after we have received. The 1994 Agreed Framework was a mistake....we gave them nearly $1.5 Billion in direct aid, and received nothing in return except humiliation. North Korea would very likely not be as far along the path of their nuclear program if the 1994 Agreed Framework never happened, but they would likely still be on the same path. The world is past the point to prevent North Korea from being a nuclear power, and an overall world terror. The world could have prevented North Korea from becoming nuclear at one time, but there would have likely been a great cost. I do lean towards the side that says we look back in a couple decades and believe that preventing nations like North Korea and Iran from becoming nuclear would have been worth that cost.


You're actually going back one too many administrations. The NK government certainly did not give the Clinton administration a great deal, and cheated, but their nuclear program mostly took off after Bush turned to the isolate and starve routine. Obama carried much of the W program forward, with more diplomatic overtures.

But the bottom line is that if Obama had done things like Trump has, there would be bipartisan derision.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:12 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
governator wrote:
The Kim empire has to go for the Koreas to be unified. US would be more than fine with that, a US military base at the border of China, imagine that. Of course China won’t let that happen ever, that’s why they’ll continue to support the Kim empire economically, barely but enough to keep the family in power.


How does that work out?

No way SK allows Kim to remain in power. So now what? And what happens to him and his cadre being prosecuted for all sorts of atrocities?

This is a ploy by NK to survive. Maybe with this goodwill, they get some security "assurances" and financial aid, and continue to grow the misery that has plagued NK.


It has to be some kind of slick ‘deal(s)’ to remotely remove the Kim family and allow Korea to unify.
1. There has to be a 1st world country that agrees to take Kim’s family and ‘enough’ wealth as ‘asylum’
2. There has to be withdrawal of US military including closing base out of Korea (of course negotiated by China, and on the flip side, US get to beef up the other Asian bases in Japan/Philippines... bottom line, no US/NATO base on border of China/Russia)
3. Complete dissolution of NK military, pre-requisites for the entire NK to join SK as one Korea

Not doable
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:35 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
You're actually going back one too many administrations. The NK government certainly did not give the Clinton administration a great deal, and cheated, but their nuclear program mostly took off after Bush turned to the isolate and starve routine. Obama carried much of the W program forward, with more diplomatic overtures.


I disagree. First, in regards to your claim that their "nuclear program mostly took off after Bush turned to the isolate and starve routine" is false on both fronts. First, there was some early support/claims that the nuclear program was mostly dormant for 5 or 6 years; probably the most reported was the liberal Brookings Institution claiming that it appeared spent reactor fuel had remained in cooling ponds for nearly a decade. I know Clinton's Defense Secretary Perry has also made similar claims....but everything remotely credible I have seen reported since 2005ish has contradicted those claims as unknown sites and facilities were later identified suggesting their program did not slow significantly during any period, which is why they suddenly had advanced so much quicker than projections near the end of Bush's term.

Second, in regards to the isolate and starve claim. North Korea is very good at isolation all on its own. Also the aid provided under the 1994 Agreed Framework was distributed annually through 2008. The Bush Administration honored the agreement, and continued to distribute aid per the agreement. The Clinton and Bush Administration had credible evidence that North Korea was not within the guidelines of the agreement, and responded with hollow threats and "slaps on the wrist", all the while continuing to honor the agreement. In 2002, Bush even waived laws to continue funding KEDO and the agreement in contrast to strong objections from Republicans in congress. Only as North Korea had used up most of the aid from the 1994 Agreed Framework did they begin trying to play the Bush Administration for another agreement or extension to include additional aid for North Korea.....and honestly, I am surprised the Bush Administration was not suckered into it. I have even read Democrats claim that the agreement was working perfectly until Bush included them in the Axis of Evil, which defies every bit of logic that we know about the North Korea regime.

The 1994 Agreed Framework provided a desperate regime/nation financial and other aid, which allowed them to continue to focus on their military and weapons, while providing little help for the desperate people of North Korea. I cannot tell you where North Korea would be today without the agreement in 1994, but I can proclaim it was a very poor deal for the United States.

Omar Little wrote:
But the bottom line is that if Obama had done things like Trump has, there would be bipartisan derision.


I disagree.....like I said, many if not most Republicans that are not opposing Trumps efforts now would have definitely been hypocritical in opposing Obama's efforts. I do not see any evidence that Democrats would have opposed those efforts, and the media would have presented it as an act of genius and courage.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:51 pm    Post subject:

999 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
999 wrote:
A unified Korea is not a good look for USA. Trump basically strengthened an opposing nation. Can you imagine South and North Korea unified military. Not good at all.

I highly doubt market democracy South Korea - with somewhere between the world's 12th to 14th largest economy - is going to line up to adhere to Juche under the authoritarian leadership of a kleptocratic sociopathic demagogue with terrible fashion sense.

The Korean peninsula will not be reunited under Kim Jong Un without a whole lot of bloodshed and a complete abdication of responsibility by the U.S.


I’m not talking about border unification. I’m talking about allies. Sanctions lifted against NK by SK. South Korean Companies investing in North Korea etc.


"Normalized relations" is the term that gets used in other contexts. Literal unification would make the experience in Germany look like a walk in the park. Normalized relations could be a win-win scenario, even if Fat Boy is the bigger winner. I think we're seeing how much 60+ years of this stuff has worn down the South Koreans.
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