Developing youth is the wrong way to go
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LKA
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:26 pm    Post subject:

Doc JC wrote:
LKA wrote:
Doc JC wrote:
Do people forget that GS was pretty terrible for a while with Curry and Klay?


I wouldnt say for a while .. they won 36 games with 2nd year Steph and ball hog Ellis in his way and nobody else on that team

The next year they drafted Klay and Curry barely played due to injuries
The year after that they won 47 games and it just went up from there

But you have to keep in mind that we dont have a Curry level prospect its not hate its just reality when you analyze our guys none of them have that kind of ceiling and its not their fault because guys like Steph are rare. Players that revolutionize the game.


Umm Curry wasn’t even the Curry level prospect. He was rubber ankle shooter that a lot didn’t even think could get past his injury issues to sustain long term. He became what he is today through years of hard work. He was hardly considered the hall of fame shooter he is now.


I get that but just because Curry worked hard and became great doesnt mean thats the case for everyone lol. Plenty of guys work their ass off and never meet expectations ..Plus the 1 thing Steph always had was a great shot and textbook form. He became a better PG with hard work. When you analyze our young guys they dont really excel at one aspect of the game.. Lonzo and his playmaking ability is the reason I say he has the best upside but even he will need much work offensively to be great in todays current league dominated by scoring PGs. BI has the long frame but his shot is very bad mechanically until he changes it he wont be a good shooter and he isnt a freakish athlete that jumps over guys. To be fair neither of them are crazy athletic or good enough shooters it has to be one or the other..
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:22 pm    Post subject:

It's already been stated, but it must be emphasized that in order to develop the youth, we have to commit to it. The most developed prospect we had on this team had his minutes jerked around and treated like an afterthought in his last season, then renounced. D'Lo traded. Ingram could be on the block soon.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:46 pm    Post subject:

IMO the usual reason to develop young talent is affordability. If you started with $0 salary (impossible due to cap holds) the most you field is probably 3 max stars and a team of mins or 2 max stars and 2 quality rotation players.

The Lakers are probably trying to position themselves for 2 max stars and 2-4 rotation+ (depending on what you think BI, Kuz, Hart and Lonzo will become).

Rookie contracts are invaluable in building championship teams unless you’re GSW and hit perfect storm with Curry’s first extension being low due to durability concerns (and then obviously vastly outplaying) and having salary cap spike/KD available.

Our young guys value is extremely high due to their small cap holds (rookie contracts) and eventual bird rights. Baring KD, Kawhi, Klay or maybe Butler I don’t think any of the “B” list options are worth giving up our “perfect storm” of 2 max slots and a bunch of talent on small contracts.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:44 pm    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Developing youth is one thing, competing for titles is another. It is unusual to combine the two successfully.


Some examples of competing for titles and developing young talent at the same time are Tatum and Brown with the Celtics, Simmons & Embiid with the Sixers, Kawhi with the Spurs, Durant, Westbrook, and Harden in OKC. Bynum with the Lakers.

Many will say, that there’s a lot of franchise players on that list. My response would be that hindsight is 20/20. Because if everyone knew how good these kids would be, then how come Simmons is the only one selected #1 overall? Developing and competing isn’t as rare as one might think. But it’s definitely not easy. And I don’t think the Lakers have the right personnel in place to do so.


The Warriors have some young players developing while they are winning titles but not 6-7 of them that they give significant minutes to. That is what we are doing and are nowhere near contention. I agree about the Celtics though they are led by 6 or so veterans and the young players fill in. Philadelphia isn’t a contender and they are also trying to win with young players and a few vets.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Developing youth is the wrong way to go

nshid wrote:
After watching last night's debacle,

Next time you start a post like this, stand up, take a hot relaxing shower, hit up your favorite taco stand and come back tomorrow to say what you wanna say.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:53 pm    Post subject:

LKA wrote:
Doc JC wrote:
LKA wrote:
Doc JC wrote:
Do people forget that GS was pretty terrible for a while with Curry and Klay?


I wouldnt say for a while .. they won 36 games with 2nd year Steph and ball hog Ellis in his way and nobody else on that team

The next year they drafted Klay and Curry barely played due to injuries
The year after that they won 47 games and it just went up from there

But you have to keep in mind that we dont have a Curry level prospect its not hate its just reality when you analyze our guys none of them have that kind of ceiling and its not their fault because guys like Steph are rare. Players that revolutionize the game.


Umm Curry wasn’t even the Curry level prospect. He was rubber ankle shooter that a lot didn’t even think could get past his injury issues to sustain long term. He became what he is today through years of hard work. He was hardly considered the hall of fame shooter he is now.


I get that but just because Curry worked hard and became great doesnt mean thats the case for everyone lol. Plenty of guys work their ass off and never meet expectations ..Plus the 1 thing Steph always had was a great shot and textbook form. He became a better PG with hard work. When you analyze our young guys they dont really excel at one aspect of the game.. Lonzo and his playmaking ability is the reason I say he has the best upside but even he will need much work offensively to be great in todays current league dominated by scoring PGs. BI has the long frame but his shot is very bad mechanically until he changes it he wont be a good shooter and he isnt a freakish athlete that jumps over guys. To be fair neither of them are crazy athletic or good enough shooters it has to be one or the other..

You're right, it's a case by case scenario. Should we just give up on every prospect? Every single one our young 4 have a unique skill set they bring to the table and are known to be very hard working, and we have slowly been seeing their results. I would say that is a risk worth taking.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:45 pm    Post subject:

Bard207 wrote:

Is a starting unit of

McGee
Kuzma
LeBron
Lance
Rondo

enough to get to the NBA Finals?


I don't know, but that should be the starting lineup until we get it going...
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Developing youth is the wrong way to go

LongBeachPoly wrote:
nshid wrote:
After watching last night's debacle, I just don't get it. Why do teams today still develop youth?

If you really think about, most teams developing youth have no shot at winning and more than likely will trade those players before they even pan out. Oladipo is a great example, considering he was traded by the Orlando Magic. More than anything, young teams do not win championships. Considering our average age is below this threshold, we might want to let the veterans lead off games.

Look at the stats for the last 10 years:

https://www.reddit.com/r/lakers/comments/6oim2n/a_look_into_the_average_age_of_the_last_10_nba

I'm all for young players because of their athleticism and potential but shouldn't they be allowed to develop naturally during the flow of the game behind the veterans. If we have stand-out young talent like LBJ or Kobe, of course we should make exceptions. But really, shouldn't some of these young players be on the bench earning their spots?


The last few dynasties have been built through the draft:

GS Warriors - Klay, Curry, Draymond
SA Spurs - Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, Kawhi
Bulls - Jordan and Pippen
Lakers - only constants were Kobe and Fisher (the rest were acquired via FA or trades).

---------------------------

How many teams built via trades and free agency have sustained long runs?

Cleveland Cavs - 1 title
Miami Heat w/ Shaq- 1 title
Miami Heat w/ LeBron - 2 titles
Detroit Pistons - 1 title
Boston Celtics - 1 title

-------------------------------

But to answer the question why teams choose to build by developing the youth - it's a chicken or egg question really.

1) Why don't you just trade your youth for more established veterans? well, first, you have to develop them so they can become more valuable trade assets.

2) Why don't you just sign free agents? Well, free agents don't want to come to a situation that's bare. They want to see something first, so you have to draft and develop the youth and get them to win.

This is how the Rockets did it with Harden. They didn't draft him but they had enough assets to trade for him. Then, he blossomed so they were able to attract more pieces (such as Chris Paul).

the lakers have sustain it by diong bost, drafting high enough and getting a great FA. thats the wayt hey have done it forever.

The only reason these teams are building thrut he draft is because they sucked for so long so they had no other choice but to do it thru the draft. lol. in addition some of these places are not FA destinations its like UTAH. no one wants to go there on their own in Free agency. so the only way you can lock up a player is to draft him.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Developing youth is the wrong way to go

nshid wrote:
If you really think about, most teams developing youth have no shot at winning and more than likely will trade those players before they even pan out.


Most teams have no shot of winning it, no matter how they develop a team.

Half the teams in the league have never won a single ring in their franchise history.

There are three ways to get talent -- drafts, trades, free agency. All can work, but most fail because only 1 out of 30 teams wins any given year. Winning teams have been built through all three approaches, and usually a combination of approaches.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:29 pm    Post subject:

unleasHell wrote:
Bard207 wrote:

Is a starting unit of

McGee
Kuzma
LeBron
Lance
Rondo

enough to get to the NBA Finals?


I don't know, but that should be the starting lineup until we get it going...



This is a holding pattern season where we wait and hope to get a free agent next season. It makes more sense to use this season to try to develop the young guys who are going to be around next year, rather than the one-year rentals who will be gone.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:45 am    Post subject:

The Juggernaut wrote:
Maginka made a mistake not trading for Kawhi.


Not when the Spurs were asking for our entire young core plus a couple of picks. They wanted BI, KUZ, Hart, and a couple first rounders too.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:30 am    Post subject:

mhan00 wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
Maginka made a mistake not trading for Kawhi.


Not when the Spurs were asking for our entire young core plus a couple of picks. They wanted BI, KUZ, Hart, and a couple first rounders too.


If even that. I'm sure Pop was asking for the most unreasonable package (4 unprotected 1st rounders + BI/Kuz/Hart/Zo) because he had no desire to trade Kawhi here. It wasn't happening. Get this revisionist history put to to bed.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:35 am    Post subject:

pokoy wrote:
mhan00 wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
Maginka made a mistake not trading for Kawhi.


Not when the Spurs were asking for our entire young core plus a couple of picks. They wanted BI, KUZ, Hart, and a couple first rounders too.


If even that. I'm sure Pop was asking for the most unreasonable package (4 unprotected 1st rounders + BI/Kuz/Hart/Zo) because he had no desire to trade Kawhi here. It wasn't happening. Get this revisionist history put to to bed.


Come on man. There’s no proof Pop was asking for this kind of package and I would say it’s ridiculous to assume Pop would be petty instead of getting the best package available. He’s a professional.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:10 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
pokoy wrote:
mhan00 wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
Maginka made a mistake not trading for Kawhi.


Not when the Spurs were asking for our entire young core plus a couple of picks. They wanted BI, KUZ, Hart, and a couple first rounders too.


If even that. I'm sure Pop was asking for the most unreasonable package (4 unprotected 1st rounders + BI/Kuz/Hart/Zo) because he had no desire to trade Kawhi here. It wasn't happening. Get this revisionist history put to to bed.


Come on man. There’s no proof Pop was asking for this kind of package and I would say it’s ridiculous to assume Pop would be petty instead of getting the best package available. He’s a professional.


"What they did in Memphis is beyond comprehension," said Popovich. "There should be a trade committee that can scratch all trades that make no sense. I just wish I had been on a trade committee that oversees NBA trades. I'd like to elect myself to that committee. I would have voted no to the L.A. trade."

beyond petty and would go out of his way to not help the lakers.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:24 am    Post subject:

kobe_4_mvp wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
pokoy wrote:
mhan00 wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
Maginka made a mistake not trading for Kawhi.


Not when the Spurs were asking for our entire young core plus a couple of picks. They wanted BI, KUZ, Hart, and a couple first rounders too.


If even that. I'm sure Pop was asking for the most unreasonable package (4 unprotected 1st rounders + BI/Kuz/Hart/Zo) because he had no desire to trade Kawhi here. It wasn't happening. Get this revisionist history put to to bed.


Come on man. There’s no proof Pop was asking for this kind of package and I would say it’s ridiculous to assume Pop would be petty instead of getting the best package available. He’s a professional.


"What they did in Memphis is beyond comprehension," said Popovich. "There should be a trade committee that can scratch all trades that make no sense. I just wish I had been on a trade committee that oversees NBA trades. I'd like to elect myself to that committee. I would have voted no to the L.A. trade."

beyond petty and would go out of his way to not help the lakers.


That’s not petty. Nobody knew Marc was even an NBA caliber player. I thought that trade was one sided highway robbery for years. Kuz and Ingram have both shown more than Marc or anybody else in that trade had shown at that point. You don’t run one of the longest dynasties in NBA history with pettiness.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:14 am    Post subject:

kobe_4_mvp wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
pokoy wrote:
mhan00 wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
Maginka made a mistake not trading for Kawhi.


Not when the Spurs were asking for our entire young core plus a couple of picks. They wanted BI, KUZ, Hart, and a couple first rounders too.


If even that. I'm sure Pop was asking for the most unreasonable package (4 unprotected 1st rounders + BI/Kuz/Hart/Zo) because he had no desire to trade Kawhi here. It wasn't happening. Get this revisionist history put to to bed.


Come on man. There’s no proof Pop was asking for this kind of package and I would say it’s ridiculous to assume Pop would be petty instead of getting the best package available. He’s a professional.


"What they did in Memphis is beyond comprehension," said Popovich. "There should be a trade committee that can scratch all trades that make no sense. I just wish I had been on a trade committee that oversees NBA trades. I'd like to elect myself to that committee. I would have voted no to the L.A. trade."

beyond petty and would go out of his way to not help the lakers.


Yet Pop traded Leonard for the best package available
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:16 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
pokoy wrote:
mhan00 wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
Maginka made a mistake not trading for Kawhi.


Not when the Spurs were asking for our entire young core plus a couple of picks. They wanted BI, KUZ, Hart, and a couple first rounders too.


If even that. I'm sure Pop was asking for the most unreasonable package (4 unprotected 1st rounders + BI/Kuz/Hart/Zo) because he had no desire to trade Kawhi here. It wasn't happening. Get this revisionist history put to to bed.


Come on man. There’s no proof Pop was asking for this kind of package and I would say it’s ridiculous to assume Pop would be petty instead of getting the best package available. He’s a professional.


Without question, the Spurs were asking for a lot. Whether or not what they were asking was unreasonable is in the eye of the beholder. They did get another all NBA player for him, so while we don't know for sure which of the reports were true I don't assume that we could have gotten him for cheap.

Either way, you can argue whether we should have traded a boatload for him or simply wait to see if we can use our cap space next year
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:39 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
kobe_4_mvp wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
pokoy wrote:
mhan00 wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
Maginka made a mistake not trading for Kawhi.


Not when the Spurs were asking for our entire young core plus a couple of picks. They wanted BI, KUZ, Hart, and a couple first rounders too.


If even that. I'm sure Pop was asking for the most unreasonable package (4 unprotected 1st rounders + BI/Kuz/Hart/Zo) because he had no desire to trade Kawhi here. It wasn't happening. Get this revisionist history put to to bed.


Come on man. There’s no proof Pop was asking for this kind of package and I would say it’s ridiculous to assume Pop would be petty instead of getting the best package available. He’s a professional.


"What they did in Memphis is beyond comprehension," said Popovich. "There should be a trade committee that can scratch all trades that make no sense. I just wish I had been on a trade committee that oversees NBA trades. I'd like to elect myself to that committee. I would have voted no to the L.A. trade."

beyond petty and would go out of his way to not help the lakers.


Yet Pop traded Leonard for the best package available


if the Toronto and LA packages were similar, do you think he would take the best package from LA or the second best from Toronto?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:45 am    Post subject:

I think OP you mean developing the WRONG youth is the way to go.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:47 am    Post subject:

nshid wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Developing youth is one thing, competing for titles is another. It is unusual to combine the two successfully.


I can agree with this logic. So why are we starting BI and Lonzo?

Note: Kuzma might be the exception.


Lonzo isn't the issue. Kuzma is one of the biggest problems on this team right now.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:50 am    Post subject:

kobe_4_mvp wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
kobe_4_mvp wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
pokoy wrote:
mhan00 wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
Maginka made a mistake not trading for Kawhi.


Not when the Spurs were asking for our entire young core plus a couple of picks. They wanted BI, KUZ, Hart, and a couple first rounders too.


If even that. I'm sure Pop was asking for the most unreasonable package (4 unprotected 1st rounders + BI/Kuz/Hart/Zo) because he had no desire to trade Kawhi here. It wasn't happening. Get this revisionist history put to to bed.


Come on man. There’s no proof Pop was asking for this kind of package and I would say it’s ridiculous to assume Pop would be petty instead of getting the best package available. He’s a professional.


"What they did in Memphis is beyond comprehension," said Popovich. "There should be a trade committee that can scratch all trades that make no sense. I just wish I had been on a trade committee that oversees NBA trades. I'd like to elect myself to that committee. I would have voted no to the L.A. trade."

beyond petty and would go out of his way to not help the lakers.


Yet Pop traded Leonard for the best package available


if the Toronto and LA packages were similar, do you think he would take the best package from LA or the second best from Toronto?


He took the best package from Toronto
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:56 am    Post subject:

The Juggernaut wrote:
Maginka made a mistake not trading for Kawhi.


I've been saying that since the summer. Kawhi is a top 5 player. When the opportunity is there, you don't pass it up.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:10 am    Post subject:

Threatt_Level wrote:
Lonzo isn't the issue. Kuzma is one of the biggest problems on this team right now.


Lonzo is also the issue. Truth is, BOTH those guys are the issue.

Laker7 wrote:
Lakers plus minus after 9 games:

...
Kuzma -19
Lonzo -45


That's a whopping -45 for Lonzo!

NEGATIVE FORTY FIVE.

Both are the bottom two amongst the team, but Lonzo more than doubles the negative of Kuzma.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:31 am    Post subject:

When your roster is 1/2 youth and 1st - 2nd year players.
Its a hard transition as opposed to having a couple players to develop.

But Luke and the staff have done a great job with Zo, Kuz and Hart so far.

Zu fell through the cracks and hasnt improved much after year 1

Moe, Bonga and Svi are only 10 games in, so hard to tell right now.

Williams is a placeholder cause we lacked a decent backup 5. So not much expectations for him, thought I prefered to have Jeff Ayers.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject:

Nash Vegas wrote:
Threatt_Level wrote:
Lonzo isn't the issue. Kuzma is one of the biggest problems on this team right now.


Lonzo is also the issue. Truth is, BOTH those guys are the issue.

Laker7 wrote:
Lakers plus minus after 9 games:

...
Kuzma -19
Lonzo -45


That's a whopping -45 for Lonzo!

NEGATIVE FORTY FIVE.

Both are the bottom two amongst the team, but Lonzo more than doubles the negative of Kuzma.


This speaks more to our depth. Rondo has had a couple games where he was the difference maker in the game. That's obviously going to skew Lonzo's +/- this early in the season. As a huge Rondo fan I don't see him playing that way every night. Kuz was part of that 1st quarter butt-whooping by Toronto, so that will also skew things.

The young core do need to all step up. It feels like we've been taking every team's best shot this season. Lebron effect. Maybe they weren't prepared for that. They've all had slow starts but hopefully they step it up soon.
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