Why Zo and BI's Offense is so inconsistent, Especially Zo's
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splashmtn
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:53 am    Post subject: Why Zo and BI's Offense is so inconsistent, Especially Zo's

I would've put this in one of their threads but it's about both of them.

Something I've noticed from watching BI his entire nba career, and now Zo as well as watching these last few games closely.

These two dudes have a questionable at best Touch when shooting jumpers as well as around the basket.

So why did we draft these dudes?
Because in college this was not the case at all. and obviously in high school this was not the case.

The nba players are not better at defense than college. There are a ton of lackluster non defenders in the nba. BUT, guys in the nba are super long, super strong, super quick, and everyone almost can dunk or jump high. i mean lou williams CAN dunk on you if really wants to. We've seen him do it. and thats a grounded guy that isnt seen as athletic.

a guy like lou who is not a known defender. is still long enough, quick enough, strong enough even with his thin frame, to keep up with you stride for stride assuming you're not quick like D'Fox or some other super quick guys. which zo and bi are not. Zo is very fast to be 6'6+. but he aint ultra quick. neither is BI.

So this means these two dudes were use to blowing by their defenders at the highschool level and college levels. So they were alone when it was time for them to finish at the rim. or wide open when it was time for them to hit a shot. Now, half the time that is not the case. its a guy on their hip or right in their face. again, even if the defender is a known defender. being that close still means as an offensive player you need to either realllly concentrate on making the shot OR you have to have that innate touch on your shot or around the basket. neither BI nor ZO has this ability from birth.

There is hope. since we've seen BI look like utter garbage offensive at times his first year, then become competent his second and 3rd year. But he still has a good 2 more years to go to get to that place of 100% confidence in taking and making those shots/layups.

Zo not having a summer to do more than hit the weights messed up his ability to finish and be even more consistent on his shot. I think when Zo works on scoring. he needs to have a legit nba size defender on his hip or in his face constantly. I dont want him doing any drills alone because he needs to get used to that nba level of play quickly. There's a reason why guy slike Dlillard can make shots in traffic among bigger/stronger/ players. it's not because he's so strong. most of it is due to an ability to have the right touch on your jumper and your layups in traffic. these type of players also have an uncanny ability to concentrate in those moments. Zo and BI's concentration breaks to often in these moments which is why you see the bricks. that same concentration is broken at the FT line. which is why you see those bricks as well.


again, all is not lost. it's just going to take a lot more time for us to see what they are truly capable of or they will need to change how they work on things during the season and over the next few summers(assuming they are not apart of a trade package.) These two guys lack of touch when it comes to shooting and layups is whats stopping them from being allstars right now. can it be fixed? YUP. Will it be? Maybe.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:06 pm    Post subject:

For some reason, in the case of Ingram, I feel like there's still something inside him waiting to be released. We've seen he has it in him to just take it to the defense and force them to make a decision. I said over the summer that he'd probably have to make the biggest adjustment on the team once we signed Lebron. I'm sticking by that. He needs the ball in his hands to be most effective. We haven't seen him at his best even once this season.

Lonzo I think is more skill than mental. He just has so many holes in his game offensively. Like you said, he has no touch around the basket, or anywhere for that matter. I'm sure others like GT and Mike can touch more on this, but he needs extensive skills training. He worked on his body - although he still doesn't look 100% - but now he needs to run skills drills over and over. Repetition. All the intangibles are there, just needs to work on his ballhandling, touch, and knowing when to attack the defense. He's pretty much getting all his assists without even dribbling. He could easily average double-digit assists if he looks to drive and kick more. Luke should probably run more pick-n-roll with him too.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:13 pm    Post subject:

Ehhh, it just boils down to how their games mesh with the primary offensive option.

Their jumpers (or lack thereof) are a part of that, indeed.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Ehhh, it just boils down to how their games mesh with the primary offensive option.

Their jumpers (or lack thereof) are a part of that, indeed.
I thought so too. But take a hard look at how Zo is just plain BLOWING layups. You blow layups like that when you're in middle school. not high school, not college, and surely not the nba. the reason you blow those layups is because you dont have that touch around the basket nor do you know how much you need to concentrate when taking said layup. I think Zo's confidence in his ability to take and make layups is broken because he has never had this issue until he got into the nba. and again its not great nba defense. that would be more obvious and he would know specific things he needed to fix to get around or over elite defenders. our bo zo is blowing layups after he gets by his man with no real shot blockers in the middle. Thats because he's not use to grown men hanging onto him the entire time and stay semi close to him. he's use to be all alone where he can do a little high school layup and it will rarely be challenged at the HS or college level. This will take more time than we first thought. because he has to learn how to deal with that. It's not going to go anywhere. sure the nba is getting softer by the hour but a guy like him with his lack of touch from birth really needs to learn to concentrate when going in for layups. this idea that "i got this" aint working. you dont have it bro. lol. you just blew the last 2 layups. back to the basics for you. layup drills with a defender riding you the entire time and a big man in the middle. i need that to be his work out plan from now until next summer (assuming he's still with us).

Same with the jumper and FT's. he needs to really concentrate. you can relax and concentrate at the same time. you dont have to be a ball of nerves when you're being really focused on something.

Ring the reason I know this is the case is because i had a similar issue when i use to play as a younger guy. I was good for a good one blown layup per game. now granted my FG% was still above 50% cause i would have it no other way lol. but still. The way i got over that is by learning how to concentrate even thru the contact and when i was alone running 100 miles and hour. then learning when to jump in certain situations. for some people its automatic. they never have to think about that stuff. but for others they need to be taught or learn it. but once they do, they can hang with the from birth ball players. But I also had a plan B until i could get my concentration to a point where it was 2nd nature. anytime I played a real game that meant something. I would just jump the highest I could and either dunk the ball or drop the ball over the basket so i knew there was no way in hell i would miss. I did that for a good year while i was off hours working on my concentration and scoring in traffic.

BI has a similar issue but for a different reason. I know i talked about this before but there was an interview where BI said he's still learning how to utilize his length since he shot up in height and length out of the blue. He doesnt use all of his length properly yet. this is one reason he doesnt score like we think he should on a consistent basis. when he makes those precise moves and dunks on someone its when he's concentrating/focusing the most. but thats hard to do if thats not who you are. thats something he has to train himself to do more often. but as time goes by, he will learn how to utilize his length best vs certain players. so he wont have to concentrate as hard to get the same results.

lastly, this is something i posted a while ago when gilbert arenas was critiquing our players, BI specifically. he said he unpacks himself a lot. And this goes back to BI not understanding how to use his length yet. he puts the ball on top of his head/slightly behind it when he's going in for layups and when he's shooting. this takes away a half of a second of speed on both. in addition this makes him shorter and decreases his length. it means a normal defender can now possibly block his shot because he brought it down in an area they could reach. if he stops doing that. its over for the league. in addition. bringing the ball back down to your head before you explode is one more extra movement that you have to look out for when trying to finish a play. its like shooting. try not to add so many extra things to your shot mechanics to the point where you have to be perfect on all of them for the shot to go in. you have the least amt of movement possible makes it easier to tweak a little to make it more consistent. if you have a ton of moving parts you dont know which part is broken and which part is not.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject:

I will say this. I am proud that ZO even when air balling jumpers is still shooting his new shot and has not gone back to old faithful funny release. this means he has bought into that new shot. which will workout for him better in the long run.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:40 pm    Post subject:

two of the best defenders on the team...
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:46 pm    Post subject:

Lonzo and Ingram are good players.

But since they were both drafted as high No. 2 lottery picks, them being just good is not good enough.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject:

Ziggy wrote:
For some reason, in the case of Ingram, I feel like there's still something inside him waiting to be released. We've seen he has it in him to just take it to the defense and force them to make a decision. I said over the summer that he'd probably have to make the biggest adjustment on the team once we signed Lebron. I'm sticking by that. He needs the ball in his hands to be most effective. We haven't seen him at his best even once this season.

Lonzo I think is more skill than mental. He just has so many holes in his game offensively. Like you said, he has no touch around the basket, or anywhere for that matter. I'm sure others like GT and Mike can touch more on this, but he needs extensive skills training. He worked on his body - although he still doesn't look 100% - but now he needs to run skills drills over and over. Repetition. All the intangibles are there, just needs to work on his ballhandling, touch, and knowing when to attack the defense. He's pretty much getting all his assists without even dribbling. He could easily average double-digit assists if he looks to drive and kick more. Luke should probably run more pick-n-roll with him too.


I agree with your Ingram assessment, however in the case of Lonzo it's definitely more mental than anything. He just doesn't look to score because he's not wired to do that. When he shoots with purpose he usually makes the shot. When he gets the ball and has no choice but to shoot it's a failure most of the time. I don't think he will ever be what people want him to be, it's not in his make up.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:33 pm    Post subject:

Stumpy25 wrote:
Ziggy wrote:
For some reason, in the case of Ingram, I feel like there's still something inside him waiting to be released. We've seen he has it in him to just take it to the defense and force them to make a decision. I said over the summer that he'd probably have to make the biggest adjustment on the team once we signed Lebron. I'm sticking by that. He needs the ball in his hands to be most effective. We haven't seen him at his best even once this season.

Lonzo I think is more skill than mental. He just has so many holes in his game offensively. Like you said, he has no touch around the basket, or anywhere for that matter. I'm sure others like GT and Mike can touch more on this, but he needs extensive skills training. He worked on his body - although he still doesn't look 100% - but now he needs to run skills drills over and over. Repetition. All the intangibles are there, just needs to work on his ballhandling, touch, and knowing when to attack the defense. He's pretty much getting all his assists without even dribbling. He could easily average double-digit assists if he looks to drive and kick more. Luke should probably run more pick-n-roll with him too.


I agree with your Ingram assessment, however in the case of Lonzo it's definitely more mental than anything. He just doesn't look to score because he's not wired to do that. When he shoots with purpose he usually makes the shot. When he gets the ball and has no choice but to shoot it's a failure most of the time. I don't think he will ever be what people want him to be, it's not in his make up.


I agree with the shooting but I think the finishing and in between game is a lack of skill and touch more so than his mental makeup.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:41 pm    Post subject:

it's both mental and physical with these two, along with not having a pure stroke.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:49 pm    Post subject:

VicXLakers wrote:
two of the best defenders on the team...
Tayshaun and Tony Allen FTW.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:56 pm    Post subject:

Not saying “touch” isn’t an issue.

I just think it is more A reason vs THE reason as for why they are thriving.

I think they will either need to adjust their style of play (very hard to do) or, Luke is going to have to find ways to put these guys in positions where they can rely on their strengths.

Ball has said he has had issues staying engaged and I wonder if much of this is because isn’t involved as much in the offense.

I think it might be good to have lebron play off ball more. And let him cut or post up inside some. That would put the focus back on BI/Zo as well to decide what to do.

I know it sounds crazy, but, I think in spurts, that may work.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject:

Double post

Last edited by ringfinger on Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:08 pm    Post subject:

While we wait for the offensive consistency, this is critical for team success:

Quote:
Chandler said he really likes the length of Ingram and Lonzo defensively. Thinks they have a chance to be really good on that end.


https://twitter.com/lakersreporter/status/1062450713702236160?s=21
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:19 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
While we wait for the offensive consistency, this is critical for team success:

Quote:
Chandler said he really likes the length of Ingram and Lonzo defensively. Thinks they have a chance to be really good on that end.


https://twitter.com/lakersreporter/status/1062450713702236160?s=21


noticed BI soaking up instruction from TC during the last game...
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:20 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
While we wait for the offensive consistency, this is critical for team success:

Quote:
Chandler said he really likes the length of Ingram and Lonzo defensively. Thinks they have a chance to be really good on that end.


https://twitter.com/lakersreporter/status/1062450713702236160?s=21


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:04 pm    Post subject:

Vancouver Fan wrote:
VicXLakers wrote:
two of the best defenders on the team...
Tayshaun and Tony Allen FTW.


IMO they could develop to these levels but Zo & BI are not as good defensively as either of those guys just yet. But I have high hopes for both.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:49 pm    Post subject:

Ziggy wrote:
For some reason, in the case of Ingram, I feel like there's still something inside him waiting to be released. We've seen he has it in him to just take it to the defense and force them to make a decision. I said over the summer that he'd probably have to make the biggest adjustment on the team once we signed Lebron. I'm sticking by that. He needs the ball in his hands to be most effective. We haven't seen him at his best even once this season.

Lonzo I think is more skill than mental. He just has so many holes in his game offensively. Like you said, he has no touch around the basket, or anywhere for that matter. I'm sure others like GT and Mike can touch more on this, but he needs extensive skills training. He worked on his body - although he still doesn't look 100% - but now he needs to run skills drills over and over. Repetition. All the intangibles are there, just needs to work on his ballhandling, touch, and knowing when to attack the defense. He's pretty much getting all his assists without even dribbling. He could easily average double-digit assists if he looks to drive and kick more. Luke should probably run more pick-n-roll with him too.
yeah i see what you're saying, especially about Zo. There is a hesitation with him going to the rack also not just about him not being able to score with ease like he could all of his life pre nba. it's also his lack of real ability to shake a guy via his dribble. not that you need to have kyrie dribbles. but you need to have a yourself a wicked cross over, a decent step back(he has this), a decent two or so types of hesitation moves. and some stop then go movement to keep the defense off of you. right now he goes 100 mph when he sees an opening. but he doesnt know how to go 40 mph, then 100, then 60, then 80, then 100. watch any of your favorite perimeter scorers and thats what they do all game long.
Zo is like an old American Muscle car. fast as hell in a straight line. but dont you have that car have to hit any serious turns or S curves. your favorite nba scorers are porches. Some also have lambo engines in them as well. where they can crank up the straight line speed when necessary.


Last edited by splashmtn on Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:50 pm    Post subject:

We're taking a guy with was drafted for his passing and turning him into a 3 & D guard. Then we wonder why it takes more than 10 games to settle into it....
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:54 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Not saying “touch” isn’t an issue.

I just think it is more A reason vs THE reason as for why they are thriving.

I think they will either need to adjust their style of play (very hard to do) or, Luke is going to have to find ways to put these guys in positions where they can rely on their strengths.

Ball has said he has had issues staying engaged and I wonder if much of this is because isn’t involved as much in the offense.

I think it might be good to have lebron play off ball more. And let him cut or post up inside some. That would put the focus back on BI/Zo as well to decide what to do.

I know it sounds crazy, but, I think in spurts, that may work.
oh i agree, his lack of engagement is a direct line to rondo, lance, bron, all on the team doing what he does best. so that is messing with him. but that means he needs to score more often when he sees those chances pop up. but he can't because of his lack of handles, lack of touch. and he knows he has issues in those areas in the nba. so thats yet another reason to stay away from the ball and remain out of the game mentally.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject:

I think it is simple.....neither have figured out how to play with and compliment Lebron. Both guys have had success on teams where they were the Alpha and in egalitarian schemes....it is a whole different game playing as a pure complimentary player to a true Alpha. How do you not get in the way, while not disappearing and positively contributing is what I think both are struggling with right now. It is one reason I am looking forward to Lebron taking a night off to rest, and watching how the young guys play without him on the court for a night.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:20 pm    Post subject:

Intimidating walls of text, fam.

They’re overthinking the game plain and simple. Go out there, work your ass off on defense, and come out aggressive. Find the open man quickly, and let’s just run like youve been doing your entire lives. Just don’t shoot worrying about missing. Let it fly. Air balls or not, get that thick skin and own the league like the champions you are. Sack up, boys. All the skill in the world ain’t a damn thing without supreme confidence.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:33 pm    Post subject:

€H£M£$TR¥ wrote:
Intimidating walls of text, fam.

They’re overthinking the game plain and simple. Go out there, work your ass off on defense, and come out aggressive. Find the open man quickly, and let’s just run like youve been doing your entire lives. Just don’t shoot worrying about missing. Let it fly. Air balls or not, get that thick skin and own the league like the champions you are. Sack up, boys. All the skill in the world ain’t a damn thing without supreme confidence.
all the confidence in the world doesnt override a lack of skill nor touch around the basket or on jumpers.

you can be as confident as ever. you still can't shoot consistently. you still blow layups too often. sorry, just trying hard aint enough when you're lacking in certain areas.

Truth is, the best confidence built, is that built on a legit foundation of skills that you have worked on like crazy to perfect. THen you will have the ultimate confidence.

There's a reason kobe, jordan, etc were so darn cocky. they KNEW they worked on all of these skills they had and worked it more than any other player. their confidence was steeped in skill and work ethic. not just confidence itself.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:55 am    Post subject:

hoenst to me ingram doesnt look comfortable in his shooting form like it has to come low from waist down to up. it just doesn't seem to be a natural motion/flow. im not trying to compare the two but look at durants form it looks pure and get the feeling it goes in every time he shoots it. I think he needs more 3pointer than mid range but he does need more opportunity to shoot open more like off the screen or at a pull up in transition. Plus he has them long long arms that is advantageous at the rim for a layin or a dunk. His skinny frame doesnt support the bangs at the rim so that kinda suck but he has potential to become a good player once he figures out how to use his body as is gets stronger or so i hope.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:33 am    Post subject:

I agree with the one saying that out young guys are having difficulties playing with lebron. Honestly, I thought lebron would come here and try to blend in more. I thought this team was pretty good without him and that a superstar + development might put us over the top.

Idk...I want Lonzo dictating the pace of our team.

I want Ingram to play more point forward like before.

Idk...seems like we’re getting angry because they are not thriving in new roles. Maybe our expectations should drop with the role changes?
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